Understanding God’s election
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Nope. God divorced the nation of Israel and told them that He was no longer their God. The elect have henceforth become the people of God.
[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Hos 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Hos 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
Re "Believe me, I hope I've missed something germane regarding the second death, and that I'm wrong, as I don't like it any more than you do": So, you are more loving than God?! This illustrates the role of implication in harmonization of Scripture, which is different from reading into it.
Verses can seem "conclusive", but one should seek a way to harmonize verses that seem contradictory.
Yes, "if someone doesn't become saved by God during their lifetime, they will be cast into the lake of fire", but this does NOT mean "God hates the unsaved". Instead, He grieves because of their obstinacy. (MT 23:37, EPH 4:30, MT 5:44&48, IS 63:10)
Yes, the OC is superseded by the NC, but much is still relevant when interpreted in light of the NT, such as DT 30:19 and works manifesting the loving fruit of the HS.
Re "God did it all": HB 8:9-12 needs to be harmonized with EPH 4:11-16. The only thing left for man is willingly accepting God's will/love, for by this/love people may "know" we are saved per JN 13:35.
MT 23:37 speaks BOTH about Jerusalem as a whole AND about the individuals who comprise it, and Christ in/per Paul includes the Gentiles.
1TM 2:3b-4 speaks of all people, but all people do not want to be saved God's Way per JN 6:37 & 17:9.
RM 11:7 speaks of most of Israel seeking salvation via works, whereas the elect Jews and Gentiles accept Christ's work on their behalf.
Re EPH 1:3-14, we elect to discuss it later. :^)
Verses can seem "conclusive", but one should seek a way to harmonize verses that seem contradictory.
Yes, "if someone doesn't become saved by God during their lifetime, they will be cast into the lake of fire", but this does NOT mean "God hates the unsaved". Instead, He grieves because of their obstinacy. (MT 23:37, EPH 4:30, MT 5:44&48, IS 63:10)
Yes, the OC is superseded by the NC, but much is still relevant when interpreted in light of the NT, such as DT 30:19 and works manifesting the loving fruit of the HS.
Re "God did it all": HB 8:9-12 needs to be harmonized with EPH 4:11-16. The only thing left for man is willingly accepting God's will/love, for by this/love people may "know" we are saved per JN 13:35.
MT 23:37 speaks BOTH about Jerusalem as a whole AND about the individuals who comprise it, and Christ in/per Paul includes the Gentiles.
1TM 2:3b-4 speaks of all people, but all people do not want to be saved God's Way per JN 6:37 & 17:9.
RM 11:7 speaks of most of Israel seeking salvation via works, whereas the elect Jews and Gentiles accept Christ's work on their behalf.
Re EPH 1:3-14, we elect to discuss it later. :^)
Once again, coming right out the gate, you get both of the above passages wrong. So, I'm going to ignore most of your post, which very likely is more of the same ol' same ol' Roger is 100% right about you. You read your own person presuppositions into passages and the make the false claim that you have "harmonized" passages.
The Mat 5 text is dealing with rewards for persecuted believers on the last day, which is not the subject matter of newly converted believers. And Mat 16 speaks to "rewards" that will be doled out to believers and unbelievers on judgment day. And ditto for Eph 6:8; Col 3:24, by the way, which is addressed to Christians and the rewards they will receive on judgment day.
Conversely, the "rewards" I'm talking about is what God does at the point of one's CONVERSION. For your info, those "rewards" happen long before judgment day.
Yes, I know God's Word doesn't do that. But FWT does! You freewillers talk out of both sides of your mouth. In FWT, man must first do his part, THEN God will reciprocate by rewarding that person with eternal life, the Holy Spirit, new heart, etc., etc. IOW, it is the logical inference to FWT! And besides, why wouldn't God reward a person in this life for his good deeds? You pay mere lip service to Jesus in terms of his merit because at the same time you disavow that Jesus plays any role in a person's decision-making process. Jesus, too, is but a mere passive, crystal ball gazing, spectator as his Father and the Holy Spirit are, passively sitting by, wringing his hands, possibly hoping against all hope that a person will come to make the right decision by the power of his own "free" will; for anything more than this would be tantamount to tyrannical bullying in your theology.
And now I have another question re a person's conversion: When a person comes to faith and repentance, ultimately by the power of his own "freewill", do you think God is pleased by that?
And, by the way, I'm still waiting for your understanding of Jesus' words in Mat 7:23: "I never knew you". What did he mean by that!?
The Mat 5 text is dealing with rewards for persecuted believers on the last day, which is not the subject matter of newly converted believers. And Mat 16 speaks to "rewards" that will be doled out to believers and unbelievers on judgment day. And ditto for Eph 6:8; Col 3:24, by the way, which is addressed to Christians and the rewards they will receive on judgment day.
Conversely, the "rewards" I'm talking about is what God does at the point of one's CONVERSION. For your info, those "rewards" happen long before judgment day.
Yes, I know God's Word doesn't do that. But FWT does! You freewillers talk out of both sides of your mouth. In FWT, man must first do his part, THEN God will reciprocate by rewarding that person with eternal life, the Holy Spirit, new heart, etc., etc. IOW, it is the logical inference to FWT! And besides, why wouldn't God reward a person in this life for his good deeds? You pay mere lip service to Jesus in terms of his merit because at the same time you disavow that Jesus plays any role in a person's decision-making process. Jesus, too, is but a mere passive, crystal ball gazing, spectator as his Father and the Holy Spirit are, passively sitting by, wringing his hands, possibly hoping against all hope that a person will come to make the right decision by the power of his own "free" will; for anything more than this would be tantamount to tyrannical bullying in your theology.
And now I have another question re a person's conversion: When a person comes to faith and repentance, ultimately by the power of his own "freewill", do you think God is pleased by that?
And, by the way, I'm still waiting for your understanding of Jesus' words in Mat 7:23: "I never knew you". What did he mean by that!?
In this case, I don't believe there are any. I've looked. But maybe. If you find any that negate those verses, post them.
Can't be still relevant as one is the polar opposite of, and contradictory to, the other - those who subject themselves to the Old, prove they have not been placed under the new - we are all under one or the other, but not both
To "know we are saved" is to recognize effect, not cause.
Doesn't seem like it to me: their house was left to them desolate, not that God stop saving His elect.
If you believe that is what is necessary to become saved, then you also don't believe that Jesus is Savior. By being the Savior, He did all that was required to impart salvation to those chosen to receive it, otherwise, He couldn't/wouldn't be the Savior. A Savior who doesn't save isn't one. All of the attributes that manifest in someone saved, comes from salvation - they are all byproducts, not cause.
But it has been made abundantly clear in the Bible that Christ alone is the Savior, so, no contribution to achieve it from any other source, to include ourselves is possible. We are to completely rest in Christ's perfectly completed work.
Their acceptance of Christ's works on their behalf came from being saved/born again. It did not lead to it.
Can't be still relevant as one is the polar opposite of, and contradictory to, the other - those who subject themselves to the Old, prove they have not been placed under the new - we are all under one or the other, but not both
To "know we are saved" is to recognize effect, not cause.
Doesn't seem like it to me: their house was left to them desolate, not that God stop saving His elect.
If you believe that is what is necessary to become saved, then you also don't believe that Jesus is Savior. By being the Savior, He did all that was required to impart salvation to those chosen to receive it, otherwise, He couldn't/wouldn't be the Savior. A Savior who doesn't save isn't one. All of the attributes that manifest in someone saved, comes from salvation - they are all byproducts, not cause.
But it has been made abundantly clear in the Bible that Christ alone is the Savior, so, no contribution to achieve it from any other source, to include ourselves is possible. We are to completely rest in Christ's perfectly completed work.
Their acceptance of Christ's works on their behalf came from being saved/born again. It did not lead to it.
Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant.
Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, Israel, and Jesus was a Jew.
Israel was chosen for this messianic purpose, the promise, the seed.
Old Covenant Israel has been severed, hardened, disconnected from grace.
The Gentiles now have the green light according to Paul.
Romans taught me that the Gentile nations have been given the gospel.
The nation of Israel rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So would I say that the church replaced Israel, definitely not.
Romans does not say that, Romans states that there are two distinct groups.
The nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.
Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, Israel, and Jesus was a Jew.
Israel was chosen for this messianic purpose, the promise, the seed.
Old Covenant Israel has been severed, hardened, disconnected from grace.
The Gentiles now have the green light according to Paul.
Romans taught me that the Gentile nations have been given the gospel.
The nation of Israel rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So would I say that the church replaced Israel, definitely not.
Romans does not say that, Romans states that there are two distinct groups.
The nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.
Hey @Rufus @rogerg @brightfame52 :
There is no "hedge". Do any of you understand the trial of Job 1 & 2?
No. No you do not. If you did understand.....POOF there goes your Calvinite condemnation-fest.
Much to your chagrin.....I know.
[Job 1:8 KJV]
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[Job 1:9 KJV]
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[Job 1:10 KJV]
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[Job 1:11 KJV]
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[Job 1:12 KJV]
And the LORD said unto Satan (AND ALL OF THE VAST ANGELIC HOST OF WITNESSES AT THE TRIAL!), Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
==================================================================
Now that the heavenly host of witnesses behold that there is NO HEDGE (God is not loading the dice and hedging His bets as regards His faithful servants upon the earth), conclusively proven in the preceding chapters, Job once again declares His faith and trust in the God of his salvation.
[Job 19:21 KJV]
Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
[Job 19:25 KJV]
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:
[Job 19:26 KJV]
And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
[Job 19:27 KJV]
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.
======================================================================
Why is it that so few are using the OT as a wrecking ball to demolish the Calvinite defenses?
I mean.....its dynamite folks.
====================================================================
Silence is golden when it comes to Genesis 3 right @Rufus @rogerg @brightfame52 ?
1) Did Adam and the Woman "save themselves" when they confessed their sin at their trial in Genesis 3?
2) What then did God do after their confession?
3) Do you (or any Calvinite) have even the slightest idea of what I am talking about?
And another thing, when you testify truthfully at your OWN trial (and believe me you, me and everyone else is ON TRIAL right now), is this a meritorious "work"? Or nothing more than your legal, moral and ethical responsibility toward your God?
BTW buddy, Genesis 3 utterly DESTROYS the Calvinite theories root and branch.
But for some reason, the Calvinites just cannot figure out why.
Too bad so sad.
====================================================================================
And the thing is......the Bible NEVER states that receiving Jesus for the remission of sins is in any way a "work" as the Calvinites define it.
Nor does the Bible EVER state that the act of believing on Jesus makes the petitioner in any way his own savior.
On the contrary, the call to repentance is a COMMAND......a DUTY.
Every man's DUTY is to confess the truth that we are sinners and speak the truth that Jesus is Lord. And after that we are qualified to become SERVANTS. Which is NOTHING MORE than resetting to our original mandate which was conferred upon us at creation.
[Luk 17:9 NIV]
Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do?
[Luk 17:10 NIV]
So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
There is no "hedge". Do any of you understand the trial of Job 1 & 2?
No. No you do not. If you did understand.....POOF there goes your Calvinite condemnation-fest.
Much to your chagrin.....I know.
[Job 1:8 KJV]
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[Job 1:9 KJV]
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[Job 1:10 KJV]
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[Job 1:11 KJV]
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[Job 1:12 KJV]
And the LORD said unto Satan (AND ALL OF THE VAST ANGELIC HOST OF WITNESSES AT THE TRIAL!), Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
==================================================================
Now that the heavenly host of witnesses behold that there is NO HEDGE (God is not loading the dice and hedging His bets as regards His faithful servants upon the earth), conclusively proven in the preceding chapters, Job once again declares His faith and trust in the God of his salvation.
[Job 19:21 KJV]
Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
[Job 19:25 KJV]
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:
[Job 19:26 KJV]
And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
[Job 19:27 KJV]
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.
======================================================================
Why is it that so few are using the OT as a wrecking ball to demolish the Calvinite defenses?
I mean.....its dynamite folks.
====================================================================
Silence is golden when it comes to Genesis 3 right @Rufus @rogerg @brightfame52 ?
1) Did Adam and the Woman "save themselves" when they confessed their sin at their trial in Genesis 3?
2) What then did God do after their confession?
3) Do you (or any Calvinite) have even the slightest idea of what I am talking about?
And another thing, when you testify truthfully at your OWN trial (and believe me you, me and everyone else is ON TRIAL right now), is this a meritorious "work"? Or nothing more than your legal, moral and ethical responsibility toward your God?
BTW buddy, Genesis 3 utterly DESTROYS the Calvinite theories root and branch.
But for some reason, the Calvinites just cannot figure out why.
Too bad so sad.
====================================================================================
And the thing is......the Bible NEVER states that receiving Jesus for the remission of sins is in any way a "work" as the Calvinites define it.
Nor does the Bible EVER state that the act of believing on Jesus makes the petitioner in any way his own savior.
On the contrary, the call to repentance is a COMMAND......a DUTY.
Every man's DUTY is to confess the truth that we are sinners and speak the truth that Jesus is Lord. And after that we are qualified to become SERVANTS. Which is NOTHING MORE than resetting to our original mandate which was conferred upon us at creation.
[Luk 17:9 NIV]
Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do?
[Luk 17:10 NIV]
So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
I don't think you realize that you just reiterated Election unto Salvation. The predestination of the redeemed.
I find this site is a unique resource for apologetics topics searches. If there is a better site anyone here uses please post a link.
www.openbible.info
What Does the Bible Say About Predestined Election Unto Salvation?
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Ephesians 1:4-5 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 9:11-13 Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
I find this site is a unique resource for apologetics topics searches. If there is a better site anyone here uses please post a link.
www.openbible.info
What Does the Bible Say About Predestined Election Unto Salvation?
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Ephesians 1:4-5 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 9:11-13 Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
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........ What is a BBTist?Look man, Israel the Nation is on the "back burner".
They WILL be re-commissioned when they confess at the SC.
And when they confess as a corporate body at the SC, THEN they will enter into the New Covenant as well.
And THEN they will fulfill their original mandate FAITHFULLY, as Gods nation of priests to the Gentiles in the Millenium.
[Act 1:6 KJV]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[Rom 11:25 KJV]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[Luk 13:35 KJV]
Behold, your house (THE HOUSE OF JACOB) is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
They WILL be re-commissioned when they confess at the SC.
And when they confess as a corporate body at the SC, THEN they will enter into the New Covenant as well.
And THEN they will fulfill their original mandate FAITHFULLY, as Gods nation of priests to the Gentiles in the Millenium.
[Act 1:6 KJV]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[Rom 11:25 KJV]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[Luk 13:35 KJV]
Behold, your house (THE HOUSE OF JACOB) is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
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Works was a *system* of deeds created by religious men to have followers perform them, as to gain the approval of God.
but we are not saved by works!
Instead?
We are saved by only one singular work!
Jesus said so!
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-29
Up until then?
The Jews in Israel were being brainwashed by the Pharisees, who kept invented works to do to gain eternal life.
The Pharisees had been telling the people that doing them would gain them eternal life!
So, as custom of disciples who followed their rabbis, his disciples asked Jesus what works that he would prescribe...
Jesus' response?
Its not the works of the Pharisees.
But...
One singular work of God (not works of the Pharisees) to gain eternal life?
Would be to believe in his Son!
It's that simple!
(once you understand the background as to why they asked Jesus their question)
OK.... grace and peace
In Christ ...........
It is not as though God’s word has failed.
For not all who are descended from Israel
are Israel. Romans 9:6
That is why it says... "not all Israel are Israel. "
Those who are the real Israel?
They have been elected by God!
The real Jews will inherit the new earth in eternity.
While the Church will inherit their new home in Heaven.
grace and peace .......................