Understanding God’s election
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Moses is credited as the author of Genesis and the other four books of the Old Testament.
First, I think we have to see that sacrifices in scripture were not just for atonement of sins. They were also performed as an act of thanksgiving, and communion with God.
Remember God's reason for not accepting Cains sacrifice was because it was not done in the proper spirit that made it acceptable.
This tells us sacrifices were not an arbitrary first compulsion by humans.
When God covered Adam and Eve in animal skins because they knew they were naked and were ashamed,they were in their fallen state and now no longer as they were in the beginning.
They now knew good from evil. As the metaphor appears in God having killed animals so to cover their sin,shame in being naked, so to we may infer sacrifices for other reasons were ordained by God,though that is not in writing in Genesis,because blood sacrifices to God are recorded.
If God did not want this because it was an invention of man, we would have to explain why God allowed this, and even criticized the spirit of the offering in the case of Cain if this was not of God's making.
And then later with those scriptures relating to blood sacrifice we would have to reconcile,if they were never of God's ordinance or decree,why God did later ordain blood sacrifices to Himself if we insist blood sacrifice was solely man's invention.
God liked our idea and made it his own?
First, I think we have to see that sacrifices in scripture were not just for atonement of sins. They were also performed as an act of thanksgiving, and communion with God.
Remember God's reason for not accepting Cains sacrifice was because it was not done in the proper spirit that made it acceptable.
This tells us sacrifices were not an arbitrary first compulsion by humans.
When God covered Adam and Eve in animal skins because they knew they were naked and were ashamed,they were in their fallen state and now no longer as they were in the beginning.
They now knew good from evil. As the metaphor appears in God having killed animals so to cover their sin,shame in being naked, so to we may infer sacrifices for other reasons were ordained by God,though that is not in writing in Genesis,because blood sacrifices to God are recorded.
If God did not want this because it was an invention of man, we would have to explain why God allowed this, and even criticized the spirit of the offering in the case of Cain if this was not of God's making.
And then later with those scriptures relating to blood sacrifice we would have to reconcile,if they were never of God's ordinance or decree,why God did later ordain blood sacrifices to Himself if we insist blood sacrifice was solely man's invention.
God liked our idea and made it his own?
Offering sacrifice is much like paying Tithes/Offerings it's by the spirit the gift is being offered more than how much that truly matters.
We know Adam/Eve sinned because they disobeyed. By the entire content of our Bible a sin offering or sacrifice is required. It's interesting in this scenario because God chooses to not clarify how forgiveness was obtained in these verses. Yes, the skins to cover the bodies is rather conclusive but God never brought it out in full detail. Which is the point I was making. It's probably the one time we can actually assume and be correct at the same time. But the truth is no mention and no mention to Cain and Abel from God, Adam, nor Eve about the need to offer up sin offering or worship offering.
We know Adam/Eve sinned because they disobeyed. By the entire content of our Bible a sin offering or sacrifice is required. It's interesting in this scenario because God chooses to not clarify how forgiveness was obtained in these verses. Yes, the skins to cover the bodies is rather conclusive but God never brought it out in full detail. Which is the point I was making. It's probably the one time we can actually assume and be correct at the same time. But the truth is no mention and no mention to Cain and Abel from God, Adam, nor Eve about the need to offer up sin offering or worship offering.
Almost forgot...
When I copied your John chapter 6 verse it's interesting Jesus just had multiple disciples leave Him and later on in the chapter Jesus asks the 12 if they would leave Him also. He gives them a chance to choose. We know Peter said where would we go. But chapter 6 indicates free will in several examples.
When I copied your John chapter 6 verse it's interesting Jesus just had multiple disciples leave Him and later on in the chapter Jesus asks the 12 if they would leave Him also. He gives them a chance to choose. We know Peter said where would we go. But chapter 6 indicates free will in several examples.
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I find it interesting that in John 15 Jesus tells his Disciples they did not choose him. Jesus chose them.
I am fond of this site because it is linked to the only Topical Scripture Search Site that I have been able to find and that has other study resources available as well.
I've linked Chapter 15 here.
And at verse 16 you'll see the footnote sn that I copied and posted below.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you[ap] and appointed you to go and bear[aq] fruit, fruit that remains,[ar] so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.
Footnote
sn You did not choose me, but I chose you. If the disciples are now elevated in status from slaves to friends, they are friends who have been chosen by Jesus, rather than the opposite way round. Again this is true of all Christians, not just the twelve, and the theme that Christians are “chosen” by God appears frequently in other NT texts (e.g., Rom 8:33; Eph 1:4ff.; Col 3:12; and 1 Pet 2:4). Putting this together with the comments on 15:14 one may ask whether the author sees any special significance at all for the twelve. Jesus said in John 6:70 and 13:18 that he chose them, and 15:27 makes clear that Jesus in the immediate context is addressing those who have been with him from the beginning. In the Fourth Gospel the twelve, as the most intimate and most committed followers of Jesus, are presented as the models for all Christians, both in terms of their election and in terms of their mission.
I am fond of this site because it is linked to the only Topical Scripture Search Site that I have been able to find and that has other study resources available as well.
I've linked Chapter 15 here.
And at verse 16 you'll see the footnote sn that I copied and posted below.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you[ap] and appointed you to go and bear[aq] fruit, fruit that remains,[ar] so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.
Footnote
sn You did not choose me, but I chose you. If the disciples are now elevated in status from slaves to friends, they are friends who have been chosen by Jesus, rather than the opposite way round. Again this is true of all Christians, not just the twelve, and the theme that Christians are “chosen” by God appears frequently in other NT texts (e.g., Rom 8:33; Eph 1:4ff.; Col 3:12; and 1 Pet 2:4). Putting this together with the comments on 15:14 one may ask whether the author sees any special significance at all for the twelve. Jesus said in John 6:70 and 13:18 that he chose them, and 15:27 makes clear that Jesus in the immediate context is addressing those who have been with him from the beginning. In the Fourth Gospel the twelve, as the most intimate and most committed followers of Jesus, are presented as the models for all Christians, both in terms of their election and in terms of their mission.
In the Jewish wedding ceremony, the Father seeks/gives the the Bride to the Groom.
This after the bride has entered into the "ketubah" covenant of her OWN FREE WILL. With fully informed consent
THIS is what is being spoken of here.
Every Jew CERTAINLY knew that this is a Jewish wedding reference.
These and parallel passage are NOT Twilight Zone time and space and mind warping nuttery the way that the addled Calvinites believe.
THIS IS THE PATTERN FOR PITYS SAKE...
Abraham seeking a bride for Isaac. And Rebekah was FULLY INFORMED and had EVERY RIGHT OF REFUSAL.
Read it and gnash your teeth Calvinites.
[Gen 24:8 KJV] And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.
Calvinite ignorance in all matters Jewish is EPIC and inexcusable. Their error-filled mind-numbing vacuous preening rhetoric is the fetid cesspool out of which monstrous heresies arise like Uruk-hai from the pits of Isengard.
So will @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143 @ParticularWife REFORM their bizarre unbiblical doctrine?
No. No they will not. Too bad so sad.
This after the bride has entered into the "ketubah" covenant of her OWN FREE WILL. With fully informed consent
THIS is what is being spoken of here.
Every Jew CERTAINLY knew that this is a Jewish wedding reference.
These and parallel passage are NOT Twilight Zone time and space and mind warping nuttery the way that the addled Calvinites believe.
THIS IS THE PATTERN FOR PITYS SAKE...
Abraham seeking a bride for Isaac. And Rebekah was FULLY INFORMED and had EVERY RIGHT OF REFUSAL.
Read it and gnash your teeth Calvinites.
[Gen 24:8 KJV] And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.
Calvinite ignorance in all matters Jewish is EPIC and inexcusable. Their error-filled mind-numbing vacuous preening rhetoric is the fetid cesspool out of which monstrous heresies arise like Uruk-hai from the pits of Isengard.
So will @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143 @ParticularWife REFORM their bizarre unbiblical doctrine?
No. No they will not. Too bad so sad.
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The Father only gives the Son those whom the Father was able to draw to Himself. John 6:35-44
If it were not about free will?
That Father would skip the drawing part.
If it were not about free will?
That Father would skip the drawing part.
The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
Jeremiah 31:3
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I am not a Calvinist. Too bad so sad for you that you do not believe what the Bible teaches, thinking instead that the natural man is able to save himself by unblinding his own eyes, unstopping his own ears, circumcising his own heart, and raising himself to new life in Christ while he is dead in his sins, all by freely choosing to believe what is foolishness to him in his hostile-to-God mind which suppresses the truth in unrighteousness because he is a lover of darkness, a slave to sin, and captive to the will of the devil. The natural man is unable to understand or receive spiritual truths. Oh, you don't believe any of that? Yeah, too bad, so sad. That is what the Bible actually teaches.
Your ignorance never ends, does it? One becomes aware they are saved by realizing that they believe the gospel.
The same gospel that used to be as foolishness, while in the state of the natural man.
That natural man that you ignore, preferring to disregard what is said of him in Scripture.
Because in your mind, he is a good guy and needed no help.
Regardless of everything that God/Jesus specifically said of him.
Which is quite a bit...
The same gospel that used to be as foolishness, while in the state of the natural man.
That natural man that you ignore, preferring to disregard what is said of him in Scripture.
Because in your mind, he is a good guy and needed no help.
Regardless of everything that God/Jesus specifically said of him.
Which is quite a bit...
It's not about simply the response, but the impetus behind the response. For example, I can force my children to apologize one to another. Outward behavior can be coerced by force or by the will. This doesn't mean at all that they regret or are sorrowful over causing an offense. Sorrow is a matter of the heart. This is the venue of God.
If this is true of me, it's true of all. Thus, it is a Godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. The sorrow of the world works death. Both sorrows exist. Their outward manifestations are the same. But when God is the impetus for the sorrow, life is the result. When man is the source of the sorrow, death is the result.
If this is true of me, it's true of all. Thus, it is a Godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. The sorrow of the world works death. Both sorrows exist. Their outward manifestations are the same. But when God is the impetus for the sorrow, life is the result. When man is the source of the sorrow, death is the result.
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The problem is that GW regarding the doctrine of election/predestination is not sufficiently clear, so it has been debated on CC in this thread ad nauseum. The need is to harmonize the Scriptures sounding as though God determines who will be elect with Scriptures indicating that souls have moral free will, but in order to do this it is first necessary to harmonize Scriptures stressing the sovereignty of God with those focusing on His love for humanity.
GW stressing sovereignty may be represented by the following:
1. Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
2. Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
GW stressing love for humanity may be represented by the following:
3. JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
4. 1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified?
My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #1 that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell, and Paul does say in #4 that God wants all to be saved, so the Son chooses to reveal the Father to all who choose to seek Him per MT 7:7.
Although #2 by itself may be understood as indicating God withholds His Word regarding the KOG from those He hates, both Jesus and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6 (in MT 13:14-15 & ACTS 28:26-27) in a way that puts the responsibility for not receiving GW on those whose hearts are hardened or not open to it (in agreement with #3).
Understanding that God loves and wants to save everyone, we are ready to consider Scripture concerning election/predestination.
GW stressing God's role in election may be represented by the following:
5. JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
6. RM 9:11&16, "In order that God's purpose in election might stand... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
GW stressing the role of human agency in election may be represented by the following:
7. DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
8. MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified?
My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #5 that his disciples could not have chosen to refuse to follow him, and God does say in #7 that He provides the opportunity to choose life or death, so Jesus saying that he chose his disciples means that God urges souls to choose life.
Although #6 may be understood as indicating human volition has no role in salvation, #8 reveals Jesus lamenting the fact that although God offers salvation to souls, those unwilling to cooperate are not saved.
This interpretation/harmonization affirms BOTH God's sovereignty and love for humanity as well as His elective will and credit for salvation AND humanity's God-given volition and accountability for cooperating with God's will that souls accept salvation via faith in The Elect, who is Christ Jesus.
GW stressing sovereignty may be represented by the following:
1. Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
2. Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
GW stressing love for humanity may be represented by the following:
3. JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
4. 1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified?
My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #1 that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell, and Paul does say in #4 that God wants all to be saved, so the Son chooses to reveal the Father to all who choose to seek Him per MT 7:7.
Although #2 by itself may be understood as indicating God withholds His Word regarding the KOG from those He hates, both Jesus and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6 (in MT 13:14-15 & ACTS 28:26-27) in a way that puts the responsibility for not receiving GW on those whose hearts are hardened or not open to it (in agreement with #3).
Understanding that God loves and wants to save everyone, we are ready to consider Scripture concerning election/predestination.
GW stressing God's role in election may be represented by the following:
5. JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
6. RM 9:11&16, "In order that God's purpose in election might stand... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
GW stressing the role of human agency in election may be represented by the following:
7. DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
8. MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified?
My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #5 that his disciples could not have chosen to refuse to follow him, and God does say in #7 that He provides the opportunity to choose life or death, so Jesus saying that he chose his disciples means that God urges souls to choose life.
Although #6 may be understood as indicating human volition has no role in salvation, #8 reveals Jesus lamenting the fact that although God offers salvation to souls, those unwilling to cooperate are not saved.
This interpretation/harmonization affirms BOTH God's sovereignty and love for humanity as well as His elective will and credit for salvation AND humanity's God-given volition and accountability for cooperating with God's will that souls accept salvation via faith in The Elect, who is Christ Jesus.
Don't think so. It is the true spiritual Church, distinct from the corporate church, that is the bride of Christ, not individuals; otherwise, there would need to be many brides, not one. The spiritual Church must marry the Lamb; it cannot refuse as Christ is the head of the Church and as such, presents it to Himself for marriage. No one can become a member of the spiritual Church unless God Himself joins them to it.
[Eph 5:23 - 27, 32 KJV]
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. ...
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
It is God alone who adds people to the spiritual Church - the bride of the Lamb - Christ. Those He adds He saves.
[Act 2:39, 47 KJV]
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.