Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both

[Everlasting-Grace]

James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.

amen,

these people had mere belief (even demons believe) they did not have faith.

so could that "dead" faith save them.

James gave us the answer. No.

Paul also gave us the answer.

we have been saved by GRACE through faith.

Not everyone who believes comes to the point of faith. where they actually get on their knees and cry out..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I wouldn't believe such a person. Jesus said it plainly: "You shall know them by their fruit."
Every one has faith. God has given every man the measure of faith, but no, not everyone is saved.
There's much to the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

No this is not true

if everyone has faith, everyone would be saved.

The jew who trusted in the law. may have believed Jesus was alive and died on a cross. But if their faith was in the law, well as the good word says, a dog returns to his vomit. why? they are still a dog. they were never made into a new creature

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Works of love please explain?

If you love the one who gave you grace. you tend to work in love

If you love the one your serving, You tend to work in love

when you work in love, you expect nothing in return.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No. That's not what I said. I stated that works do not and can not gain, supplement nor retain being saved. Salvation is a gift by grace through faith, not of works. Paul made that abundantly clear to us.

Does that help answer your question?

MM

sorry, I was trying to answer your question. so i evidently did not understand yours. Can you rephrase please

 

[Musicmaster]

yes it is, Believed (not faith) in vein.

Even demons believe yet tremble.

This is reason for us to praise the Lord for His redemptive work on our behalf, for salvation is not offered to the fallen angels who have seen God in all His glory in Heavenly places. We had no such insights as they had from their creation.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

sorry, I was trying to answer your question. so i evidently did not understand yours. Can you rephrase please

Post #73 of this thread is where the misunderstanding started...or perhaps before that.

Anyway, it appears we're both on the same page.

MM

 

[Edify]

No this is not true

if everyone has faith, everyone would be saved.

The jew who trusted in the law. may have believed Jesus was alive and died on a cross. But if their faith was in the law, well as the good word says, a dog returns to his vomit. why? they are still a dog. they were never made into a new creature

So you're saying the Bible isn't true?
I'm not shocked at all. Free gracers look past all kinds of scriptures to confirm their theology.
The real truth is, the more scriptures you bypass, the farther away from God the person is who believes such heresy.
Sad, but true.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is reason for us to praise the Lord for His redemptive work on our behalf, for salvation is not offered to the fallen angels who have seen God in all His glory in Heavenly places. We had no such insights as they had from their creation.

MM

yes. we are special

sadly. many of us believe no different than the demons. We believe Jesus is real. but have no faith in him

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So you're saying the Bible isn't true?

No. I am saying your interpretation is flawed.

I'm not shocked at all. Free gracers look past all kinds of scriptures to confirm their theology.
The real truth is, the more scriptures you bypass, the farther away from God the person is who believes such heresy.
Sad, but true.

lol. Grace, by defenition, is something given graciously by someone else. Paid in total by the giver. and could not be earned by the reciever.

free grace is a misnomer. Grace was not free. The cross was the cost of Grace.

Now if you want to SPIT on the cross. Feel free.

But don;t blame me because you do not understand what Grace is

 

[Edify]

No this is not true

if everyone has faith, everyone would be saved.

This is what you said. NOT true.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is what you said. NOT true.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

This is speaking to born again, children of God.

Not everyone in the whole world.

We are saved by Faith. Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain.

so if everyone was given even that much faith. everyone would be saved

 

[Edify]

This is speaking to born again, children of God.

Not everyone in the whole world.

We are saved by Faith. Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain.

so if everyone was given even that much faith. everyone would be saved

So when did we get faith... before accepting Christ or after?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So when did we get faith... before accepting Christ or after?

No one accepted Christ until they had faith. But not even this matter, we are saved (period) by grace.. not works. through faith (we recieve the gift of salvation offered by Grace, because we trust the gospel)

The passage you are using is not speaking of salvic faith. it is speaking of the measure of faith God gives us in all areas of our life and ministry after we are saved.

rom 12:
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

again, this is written to brethren, those who are already saved by Grace. not to the whole world.

stop trying ti pick verses out of context to support your legalism. it will not work.

 

[Cranberry]

I am reminded of this fact. Faith of a mustard seed. Who loses faith completely. except those that never had faith to begin with which is exactly what the apostle john says, they were never of us

They had faith in God but they were not indwelt by Holy Spirit.

They were ,are, in essence those who insist they can choose to believe. And it is true we can choose to believe anything we wish. Look at the mileage the Easter Bunny has obtained through believers.

However, in matters of Christ that belief by choice is not the indwelt eternal covenantal seal experienced by God's Saints, His Elect.

Instead it is what is known as nominal Christian,Christianity. Name only. Because they claim the identity but are not called by God nor indeelt so to achieve understanding of God's word and ways and as described in 1st Corinthians 2.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: Grace OR works = Cannot be both?
Scripturally Correct:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace.​

But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work"​

(Romans 11:6 AV)​

​

And, Scripturally Confirmed For The Edification Of all the saints who have placed
100% faith in The Precious [ 100% ] BLOOD Atonement, Burial, And Resurrection Of

The LORD { God } and Saviour, Jesus Christ! ​

{ God's Salvation By GRACE, Peace, Mercy, and Love! }:​

​

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

"ONE And DONE!", God Establishing An Eternal Relationship With the believer!!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Not to be Confused and Mixed Up With our fellowship With The Lord!:

"God Is Faithful, By Whom ye Were Called Unto the fellowship of His​

SON Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name​

of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing,​

​

and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined​

together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (1 Corinthians 1:9-10 AV)​

​

See 2 Corinthians 1:9-10 AV:

Again, God's Eternal Salvation { Past Tense: "Delivered From The "Penalty Of sin!" },

Not to Be Confused And Mixed Up with/but "Rightly Divided" From:

working out "our own { Not God's PAST Tense! } salvation" { Present Tense:
"Doth Deliver" from the "Power of sin!" } (Philippians 2:12 AV)

Note: Future Tense: God "Will Yet DELIVER us { All The Body Of Christ! } " =
from the "Presence Of sin!" at "our Blessed Hope!!:

God's Great Grace Departure!​

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all In The Name of the Lord Jesus,​

giving thanks To God And The Father By Him" (Colossians 3:17 AV)​

Amen!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

They had faith in God but they were not indwelt by Holy Spirit.

then to me they did nto have faith.

They were ,are, in essence those who insist they can choose to believe. And it is true we can choose to believe anything we wish. Look at the mileage the Easter Bunny has obtained through believers.

However, in matters of Christ that belief by choice is not the indwelt eternal covenantal seal experienced by God's Saints, His Elect.

Instead it is what is known as nominal Christian,Christianity. Name only. Because they claim the identity but are not called by God nor indeelt so to achieve understanding of God's word and ways and as described in 1st Corinthians 2.

again, shows me they did nto have faith in god. they may believe, but the belief never progressed to faith

 

[HeIsHere]

This is what you said. NOT true.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If you read in context this is connected to the use of the gifts given to believers.

Romans 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

 

[Leastofall]

I was not saying that you stated the the Blood of Christ was not sufficient. That's a natural conclusion to any measure of doubt cast upon faith alone for salvation.

Please allow me to clarify:

How can works ever have any effect upon salvation when Paul clearly pointed out "...and that not of yourselves...," in Ephesians 2:8? Do you believe that one must do good works in any measure to be saved? You don't have to debate this with me. I'm just asking, because when anyone deviates away from salvation being by faith alone, then the only other conclusion that could be formulated about such a belief is that works on our part must be a part of that equation, and scripture casts that into the winds of falsehood time after time after time. If not faith alone, then what else could possibly be added?

MM

What I was hoping to point out is that faith without works is dead. Faith and works go together. You said in your statement one or the other you cannot have both.
We enter in by faith not by works but to be sure it is by the grace of God that has allowed it to be so.
God has given a measure of faith to each that we are to grow from.
There are some who say they believe and return back to there own life. With no sign of there belief only a verbal acknowledgement.
Are they saved? Is this belief the faith we are speaking about?

 

[Cranberry]

then to me they did nto have faith.

I think we read just on this site many who claim to have faith. While in short order we see that it is nominal faith. I.E saying they believe, which is easy enough.

What is obviously absent is Conviction. Conviction of the Holy Spirit that indwells God's faithful so we understand the things of God. Which we are told is not possible for the natural person who is in the world and dead to the things of God.

again, shows me they did nto have faith in god. they may believe, but the belief never progressed to faith

I read God's teachings as that what tells us no one can come to Him, who is Jesus The Word made flesh, unless He leads them. And once led He indwells them so that His teachings then resonate as Truth. Whereas otherwise they are seen as foolishness.

I think that fact is reiterated on forums. When we read those who say they believe and yet they do not accept God said what he says in His word.

Instead they abrogate,alter,change,rework, the passages of Scripture to their preferred version so to make it more palatable.

Because as I read them it is obvious they don't like what they're told because their material god,self, has to retain control of what they insist gives them the power to work their faith. The "I" am in control fixture.

I choose to believe in God. I know God said that is true and I can come to faith because I choose to. I am saved because I believe it and in Jesus.

Their I overshadows what The Truth teaches about the power of the real I.

I Am,that I Am. God.

Which is why they all deny God's presence in His Word that tells us He predestined those whose name he wrote in His Lamb's Book of Life, those whom He foreknew, to conform to the image of His Son. And insist instead they choose to have Jesus accept them because they know his name and chose to be there as Christian in name only. And Jesus concedes.

Which is what they do when they deny God's teaching regarding His Predestination of His Elect,The Saints.

"I choose Jesus.And He agrees."

No.
That's not what God teaches.
Yet that I doctrine of self helps explain why they cannot divine Gods words. Though they think they are able to. And even reword His word to feel correct in their belief they are His.

They prove the things of God are foolishness to them when they try and clean up what is God's word to their liking. And then they defend their manufacture. The doctrine of man.


It's all in Scripture. That's why I see those persons as a reiteration ,proof, Gods word is eternally perfect and true.

Because those we were warned about appear and do exactly what He said they would.

It's a glorious revelation. Imo of course.

 

[Edify]

Romans 6:16
New American Standard Bible
Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

The proof of faith is obedience. Some say we don't need obedience because we're forever saved. But that is a lie, for obedience is taught all thru the NT.
All those scriptures you can find on obedience is negated by some. This is sin. Deliberate sin. Those who believe they can set aside obedience will also be wrong on other biblical teachings as well.
DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.