Are giants the offspring of angels and humans?
- Thread starter Hakawaka
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
There is nothing "silly and perverse" about an explanation that accounts for ALL the relevant information and is surprisingly consistent with Scripture. I'd say Occam's Razor points toward the "myth" interpretation.
What, ultimately, is your complaint with this? Don't bother with adjectives; give us a reasoned explanation why you reject it in favour of your view?
What, ultimately, is your complaint with this? Don't bother with adjectives; give us a reasoned explanation why you reject it in favour of your view?
Here is one where the Hebrew is one side and the English side by side.
Notice God is called the ETERNAL ONE.
6:
1] Now as people began to multiply on the earth, daughters were born to them,
2] and when the divine beings saw how fair were the human women, they took wives for themselves, as they chose.
3] Then the Eternal One said, “My spirit will not forever endure the humans, as they are but fallible flesh—their lifespan shall be [only] 120 years.”
4] The Nephilim were on earth in those days; and afterward, too, when the divine beings mated with the human women, they bore for them those heroes who from of old enjoyed great renown.
5] When the Eternal saw how great was the wickedness of human beings in the earth, that the direction of their thoughts was nothing but wicked all the time, 6] the Eternal regretted having made human beings on earth, and was heartsick. 7] So the Eternal thought: “I will wipe the humans whom I created from off the face of the earth—the humans, [and with them] the beasts, the reptiles, the birds of the sky—for I rue the day I made them.”
8] But Noah found favor in the Eternal’s sight.
Notice God is called the ETERNAL ONE.
6:
1] Now as people began to multiply on the earth, daughters were born to them,
2] and when the divine beings saw how fair were the human women, they took wives for themselves, as they chose.
3] Then the Eternal One said, “My spirit will not forever endure the humans, as they are but fallible flesh—their lifespan shall be [only] 120 years.”
4] The Nephilim were on earth in those days; and afterward, too, when the divine beings mated with the human women, they bore for them those heroes who from of old enjoyed great renown.
5] When the Eternal saw how great was the wickedness of human beings in the earth, that the direction of their thoughts was nothing but wicked all the time, 6] the Eternal regretted having made human beings on earth, and was heartsick. 7] So the Eternal thought: “I will wipe the humans whom I created from off the face of the earth—the humans, [and with them] the beasts, the reptiles, the birds of the sky—for I rue the day I made them.”
8] But Noah found favor in the Eternal’s sight.
My complaint is that it's silly for a number of reasons that have been covered here and it's fantastical and deviant from the spirit of scripture. There's no need for it. Occam's Razor easily explains it: 1) the sons of God are those listed in the previous 32 verses, and 2) their intermarrying with sons of Belial, so to speak, would produce ungodly offspring that would cause the lord to say he's had enough and it's time for a reset so I can get my man Abraham on the scene and start phase 2.
Agreed. "Bene Elohim" literally means "sons of God". It does not mean "angels" (messengers).
Let's look at a couple of passages to unpack this further:
Deuteronomy 32:7-8 Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. (emphasis added)
The words "sons of Israel" are the issue here: at the time God divided the nations (Genesis 11), the sons of Israel did not exist. Several translations render this as "sons of God", "angels", or "divine guardians".
And Psalm 82:
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
Some people think God is presiding in a heavenly council of Hebrew elders. That doesn't make sense, as "you will die like mere mortals"; why would that be a concern to either mortal men, or to men who had died and gone to 'heaven'? It makes perfect sense if God is speaking to non-human entities and rebuking them for their poor management of the human charges.
Job 38:4-7
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[Hebrew bene Elohim] shouted for joy?
What humans were around when God laid the cornerstone of the earth's foundation? These were non-human entities.
Let's look at a couple of passages to unpack this further:
Deuteronomy 32:7-8 Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. (emphasis added)
The words "sons of Israel" are the issue here: at the time God divided the nations (Genesis 11), the sons of Israel did not exist. Several translations render this as "sons of God", "angels", or "divine guardians".
And Psalm 82:
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
Some people think God is presiding in a heavenly council of Hebrew elders. That doesn't make sense, as "you will die like mere mortals"; why would that be a concern to either mortal men, or to men who had died and gone to 'heaven'? It makes perfect sense if God is speaking to non-human entities and rebuking them for their poor management of the human charges.
Job 38:4-7
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[Hebrew bene Elohim] shouted for joy?
What humans were around when God laid the cornerstone of the earth's foundation? These were non-human entities.
I guess you don't understand what "don't bother using adjectives" means. Your opinions are irrelevant. "Deviant from the spirit of scripture" is about the silliest and weakest defense I've seen all week. You think your haughty language is going to leave us trembling in fear as we repent of our position? Not in the least.
It doesn't explain giants, it doesn't explain Nephilim, and it doesn't explain the origin(s) of pagan mythologies. It doesn't explain why God thought all the descendants of Cain warranted utter destruction (see Ezekiel 18). It doesn't explain the origin of demons, nor which entities "left their former estate" (Jude). My view accounts for all of this and more.
It doesn't explain giants, it doesn't explain Nephilim, and it doesn't explain the origin(s) of pagan mythologies. It doesn't explain why God thought all the descendants of Cain warranted utter destruction (see Ezekiel 18). It doesn't explain the origin of demons, nor which entities "left their former estate" (Jude). My view accounts for all of this and more.
"My" thoughts must credit the late Dr. Michael Heiser who in turn credits a large number of scholars who did the original research.
Deuteronomy 32:8 tells us this:
When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
There are two problems with this: at the time God divided the nations (Genesis 11), the sons of Israel did not exist; and, many of the source manuscripts say "sons of God" not "sons of Israel".
So, because the people reject God, He gives them over and sets non-human entities (bene Elohim) in charge over them. Instead of faithfully administering their charges, they corrupt them and set themselves up as gods over those nations. The nations in turn worship those entities as their gods. Meanwhile, the one true God chooses Abram as the progenitor of His people Israel.
These gods are mentioned by name all over the Old Testament: Moloch, Asherah, Ba'al, etc. I hold (lightly) that these were (are) real non-human entities created by God that rebelled against His authority, perhaps along with Lucifer. They have real power as shown by the false signs done by the Egyptian wizards, but their power is nothing compared to that of God Himself.
In Psalm 82:6-7, God pronounces judgment on them:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Their defeat was established at the cross, but their influence remains through pagan religions and practices.
Deuteronomy 32:8 tells us this:
When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
There are two problems with this: at the time God divided the nations (Genesis 11), the sons of Israel did not exist; and, many of the source manuscripts say "sons of God" not "sons of Israel".
So, because the people reject God, He gives them over and sets non-human entities (bene Elohim) in charge over them. Instead of faithfully administering their charges, they corrupt them and set themselves up as gods over those nations. The nations in turn worship those entities as their gods. Meanwhile, the one true God chooses Abram as the progenitor of His people Israel.
These gods are mentioned by name all over the Old Testament: Moloch, Asherah, Ba'al, etc. I hold (lightly) that these were (are) real non-human entities created by God that rebelled against His authority, perhaps along with Lucifer. They have real power as shown by the false signs done by the Egyptian wizards, but their power is nothing compared to that of God Himself.
In Psalm 82:6-7, God pronounces judgment on them:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Their defeat was established at the cross, but their influence remains through pagan religions and practices.
Regarding nephilim, both commentaries look to me like ignorant speculation, not deep insight. Their words are not authoritative in the least.
As for "giant" and "Nephilim", I take them to be different concepts. Later books in the OT clearly discuss giants (unusually large 'humans') without referring to them specifically as "fallen ones".
As for "giant" and "Nephilim", I take them to be different concepts. Later books in the OT clearly discuss giants (unusually large 'humans') without referring to them specifically as "fallen ones".
All of that developed when the people were scattered at Babel and lost a unified vision of the revelation of redemption that was given to the sons of God, starting with Adam through Noah, that was then passed on the other side of the flood to Abraham via Shem and possibly Noah when he moved to Haran, that is just south of the Ararat mtns where Noah disembarked. Jewish tradition says that Abraham studied under Shem, whose lifespan was concurrent with Abraham's by well over a hundred years.
The descendants of Noah knew of the revelation and had a unified vision of it as they began to build Babel. When they were scattered they developed their own mythologies based on this revelation. That's why we see elements of the redemption story in many unrelated ancient cultures. How Roman and Greek mythologies specifically developed I have no idea.
The descendants of Noah knew of the revelation and had a unified vision of it as they began to build Babel. When they were scattered they developed their own mythologies based on this revelation. That's why we see elements of the redemption story in many unrelated ancient cultures. How Roman and Greek mythologies specifically developed I have no idea.