Sleep just means death and the bodies of all are somewhere on the Earth and all will eventually wake/resurrect but Daniel doesn't say the saved resurrect on Earth just that their dead bodies are there which they don't go back to anyways. I presented many scriptures showing the new body is in heaven and Christ brings the dead with him so a resurrection in heaven is for the saved. The unsaved will resurrect back to their old bodies on Earth.
Preparation for the tribulation.
- Thread starter BOY
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sleep just means death and the bodies of all are somewhere on the Earth and all will eventually wake/resurrect but Daniel doesn't say the saved resurrect on Earth just that their dead bodies are there which they don't go back to anyways. I presented many scriptures showing the new body is in heaven and Christ brings the dead with him so a resurrection in heaven is for the saved. The unsaved will resurrect back to their old bodies on Earth.
The phrase (in 1Th4:14) "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] Him/Christ" is oft-misunderstood.
This SPECIFIC phrase is NOT referencing His bringing them with Him at the RAPTURE time-slot, but at His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH time-slot.
Paul is explaining HOW IT IS SO that "the DEAD IN Christ" will not be LEFT OUT of that event simply because they've DIED prior to that point. (it involves "our Rapture [/ SNATCH - G726]" of which THEY WILL BE INCLUDED: "and SO [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE EVER be WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] the Lord"--and NOT PRIOR TO "our Rapture," see!)
[This has NOTHING TO DO with your imposed *idea* of "resurrection" taking place IN HEAVEN for "the DEAD IN Christ". No!]
This SPECIFIC phrase is NOT referencing His bringing them with Him at the RAPTURE time-slot, but at His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH time-slot.
Paul is explaining HOW IT IS SO that "the DEAD IN Christ" will not be LEFT OUT of that event simply because they've DIED prior to that point. (it involves "our Rapture [/ SNATCH - G726]" of which THEY WILL BE INCLUDED: "and SO [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE EVER be WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] the Lord"--and NOT PRIOR TO "our Rapture," see!)
[This has NOTHING TO DO with your imposed *idea* of "resurrection" taking place IN HEAVEN for "the DEAD IN Christ". No!]
Yes, I was saying that the the martyrs in 6:11 were clothed in white after they died. So I think the elders also died. Note that I don't think the elders included all of the faithful believers in the church of Sardis in Rev. 3:5, so Rev. 4:4 is not a complete fulfillment of the promise to the believers in Sardis. I would say that "robes" (STOLE) are a type of "garment" (HIMATION). So my point still stands. Faithful believers may be clothed in white garments after they die. And just because Rev. 3:5 is fulfilled for saints who have died, does not mean that the rapture of living saints has happened also.
1 Corinthians 15:53 talks about the raptured believer's bodies: corruption will put on incorruption and mortality will put on immortality. In this case, the body is different, but there is still continuity. The person does not jump from one body to the next. The body gets an upgrade, it seems. I believe raptured and resurrected believers will get the same kind of body for eternity.
As for 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, verse 4 says the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:53, that mortality is swallowed up by life. Verse 1, the new body can live in the heavens forever. Verse 2, I think of the house from heaven, to mean the same thing as the house from God -- in other words, God gives us the new body. I admit this is a weak explanation of Verse 2, but we see that heaven is often used to represent God -- did John the Baptist's authority come from heaven, the kingdom of heaven, etc.
As for 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, verse 4 says the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:53, that mortality is swallowed up by life. Verse 1, the new body can live in the heavens forever. Verse 2, I think of the house from heaven, to mean the same thing as the house from God -- in other words, God gives us the new body. I admit this is a weak explanation of Verse 2, but we see that heaven is often used to represent God -- did John the Baptist's authority come from heaven, the kingdom of heaven, etc.
Sure. The process is a bit different but the result is the same.
Yes, the house is a metaphor for a body. The dead receive a new body that is currently in heaven. It is not received until the time for the resurrection. The living saints at the second coming will have their living mortal bodies converted into an immortal body. I think the result is essentially a new body.
Yes, the house is a metaphor for a body. The dead receive a new body that is currently in heaven. It is not received until the time for the resurrection. The living saints at the second coming will have their living mortal bodies converted into an immortal body. I think the result is essentially a new body.
^ This sentence from Paul contradicts such a notion:
"1 Cor 15:51-52 - Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."
["and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES)--This corresponds with what is stated further down, where it says, "THIS corruptible MUST *PUT-ON* incorruption" (This part of the sentence refers to "the DEAD IN Christ" component of the "ONE BODY / Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whereas "THIS mortal MUST *PUT-ON* immortality" refers to the "we which are ALIVE" component, of same]
"1 Cor 15:51-52 - Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."
["and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES)--This corresponds with what is stated further down, where it says, "THIS corruptible MUST *PUT-ON* incorruption" (This part of the sentence refers to "the DEAD IN Christ" component of the "ONE BODY / Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whereas "THIS mortal MUST *PUT-ON* immortality" refers to the "we which are ALIVE" component, of same]
Paul is clear the saved have a body in heaven which is not this current body. The saved dead will be raised in heaven.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
In verse 2, where Paul talks about "EARNESTLY DESIRING"... he is referring specifically to the issue of "[earnestly desiring] to be CLOTHED-UPON with..." . What he is saying in this passage is that we are all "EARNESTLY DESIRING to be CLOTHED-UPON [i.e. given our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first--no one is "EARNESTLY DESIRING to have to DIE" (which is what the word "UNCLOTHED" in this passage speaks to... the same as "dissolved" in v.1); Sure, we are "WILLING" to DIE (per the text) if that be His will for us, but we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" to be "CLOTHED-UPON" (which MEANS, given our "glorified bodies" APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST [/"UNclothed"]!)]
This "[to be] CLOTHED-UPON" = "given a GLORIFIED BODY [APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST as the "UNCLOTHED" mention in this text refers specifically to]"; That's what we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" and... it takes place for the MORTAL believers ("we which are ALIVE" component) and says, "that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (v.4)
This is a somewhat veiled "RAPTURE / SNATCH" reference not many folks recognize.
[I stand by what I said previously: ""and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES) ]
This "[to be] CLOTHED-UPON" = "given a GLORIFIED BODY [APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST as the "UNCLOTHED" mention in this text refers specifically to]"; That's what we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" and... it takes place for the MORTAL believers ("we which are ALIVE" component) and says, "that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (v.4)
This is a somewhat veiled "RAPTURE / SNATCH" reference not many folks recognize.
[I stand by what I said previously: ""and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES) ]
It has nothing to with a rapture. Rapture is moving someone from one place to another, the verse is speaking of a mortal being changed into immortal. What happens is they are changed from mortal to immortal, and after that is done they will be raptured/moved to a new location. You are confusing a rapture with an immortality process. They are not the same but they do happen within moments of each other.
I'm saying that our "CHANGE" will take place ("IN A MOMENT"...) "AT THE LAST TRUMP" (at "our Rapture / SNATCH [G726]" time-slot).
I'm not defining the distinct terms IDENTICALLY as you are assuming I am doing.
"we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR the trumpet shall sound and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible and WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (Paul was tasked with: "Behold, I SHEW YOU a MYSTERY"--This is not what the OT saints all already WELL-KNEW!)
I'm not defining the distinct terms IDENTICALLY as you are assuming I am doing.
"we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR the trumpet shall sound and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible and WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (Paul was tasked with: "Behold, I SHEW YOU a MYSTERY"--This is not what the OT saints all already WELL-KNEW!)
