Sleep just means death and the bodies of all are somewhere on the Earth and all will eventually wake/resurrect but Daniel doesn't say the saved resurrect on Earth just that their dead bodies are there which they don't go back to anyways. I presented many scriptures showing the new body is in heaven and Christ brings the dead with him so a resurrection in heaven is for the saved. The unsaved will resurrect back to their old bodies on Earth.
Preparation for the tribulation.
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Sleep just means death and the bodies of all are somewhere on the Earth and all will eventually wake/resurrect but Daniel doesn't say the saved resurrect on Earth just that their dead bodies are there which they don't go back to anyways. I presented many scriptures showing the new body is in heaven and Christ brings the dead with him so a resurrection in heaven is for the saved. The unsaved will resurrect back to their old bodies on Earth.
The phrase (in 1Th4:14) "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] Him/Christ" is oft-misunderstood.
This SPECIFIC phrase is NOT referencing His bringing them with Him at the RAPTURE time-slot, but at His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH time-slot.
Paul is explaining HOW IT IS SO that "the DEAD IN Christ" will not be LEFT OUT of that event simply because they've DIED prior to that point. (it involves "our Rapture [/ SNATCH - G726]" of which THEY WILL BE INCLUDED: "and SO [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE EVER be WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] the Lord"--and NOT PRIOR TO "our Rapture," see!)
[This has NOTHING TO DO with your imposed *idea* of "resurrection" taking place IN HEAVEN for "the DEAD IN Christ". No!]
This SPECIFIC phrase is NOT referencing His bringing them with Him at the RAPTURE time-slot, but at His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH time-slot.
Paul is explaining HOW IT IS SO that "the DEAD IN Christ" will not be LEFT OUT of that event simply because they've DIED prior to that point. (it involves "our Rapture [/ SNATCH - G726]" of which THEY WILL BE INCLUDED: "and SO [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE EVER be WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] the Lord"--and NOT PRIOR TO "our Rapture," see!)
[This has NOTHING TO DO with your imposed *idea* of "resurrection" taking place IN HEAVEN for "the DEAD IN Christ". No!]
Yes, I was saying that the the martyrs in 6:11 were clothed in white after they died. So I think the elders also died. Note that I don't think the elders included all of the faithful believers in the church of Sardis in Rev. 3:5, so Rev. 4:4 is not a complete fulfillment of the promise to the believers in Sardis. I would say that "robes" (STOLE) are a type of "garment" (HIMATION). So my point still stands. Faithful believers may be clothed in white garments after they die. And just because Rev. 3:5 is fulfilled for saints who have died, does not mean that the rapture of living saints has happened also.
1 Corinthians 15:53 talks about the raptured believer's bodies: corruption will put on incorruption and mortality will put on immortality. In this case, the body is different, but there is still continuity. The person does not jump from one body to the next. The body gets an upgrade, it seems. I believe raptured and resurrected believers will get the same kind of body for eternity.
As for 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, verse 4 says the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:53, that mortality is swallowed up by life. Verse 1, the new body can live in the heavens forever. Verse 2, I think of the house from heaven, to mean the same thing as the house from God -- in other words, God gives us the new body. I admit this is a weak explanation of Verse 2, but we see that heaven is often used to represent God -- did John the Baptist's authority come from heaven, the kingdom of heaven, etc.
As for 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, verse 4 says the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:53, that mortality is swallowed up by life. Verse 1, the new body can live in the heavens forever. Verse 2, I think of the house from heaven, to mean the same thing as the house from God -- in other words, God gives us the new body. I admit this is a weak explanation of Verse 2, but we see that heaven is often used to represent God -- did John the Baptist's authority come from heaven, the kingdom of heaven, etc.
Sure. The process is a bit different but the result is the same.
Yes, the house is a metaphor for a body. The dead receive a new body that is currently in heaven. It is not received until the time for the resurrection. The living saints at the second coming will have their living mortal bodies converted into an immortal body. I think the result is essentially a new body.
Yes, the house is a metaphor for a body. The dead receive a new body that is currently in heaven. It is not received until the time for the resurrection. The living saints at the second coming will have their living mortal bodies converted into an immortal body. I think the result is essentially a new body.
^ This sentence from Paul contradicts such a notion:
"1 Cor 15:51-52 - Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."
["and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES)--This corresponds with what is stated further down, where it says, "THIS corruptible MUST *PUT-ON* incorruption" (This part of the sentence refers to "the DEAD IN Christ" component of the "ONE BODY / Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whereas "THIS mortal MUST *PUT-ON* immortality" refers to the "we which are ALIVE" component, of same]
"1 Cor 15:51-52 - Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."
["and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES)--This corresponds with what is stated further down, where it says, "THIS corruptible MUST *PUT-ON* incorruption" (This part of the sentence refers to "the DEAD IN Christ" component of the "ONE BODY / Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whereas "THIS mortal MUST *PUT-ON* immortality" refers to the "we which are ALIVE" component, of same]
Paul is clear the saved have a body in heaven which is not this current body. The saved dead will be raised in heaven.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
In verse 2, where Paul talks about "EARNESTLY DESIRING"... he is referring specifically to the issue of "[earnestly desiring] to be CLOTHED-UPON with..." . What he is saying in this passage is that we are all "EARNESTLY DESIRING to be CLOTHED-UPON [i.e. given our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first--no one is "EARNESTLY DESIRING to have to DIE" (which is what the word "UNCLOTHED" in this passage speaks to... the same as "dissolved" in v.1); Sure, we are "WILLING" to DIE (per the text) if that be His will for us, but we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" to be "CLOTHED-UPON" (which MEANS, given our "glorified bodies" APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST [/"UNclothed"]!)]
This "[to be] CLOTHED-UPON" = "given a GLORIFIED BODY [APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST as the "UNCLOTHED" mention in this text refers specifically to]"; That's what we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" and... it takes place for the MORTAL believers ("we which are ALIVE" component) and says, "that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (v.4)
This is a somewhat veiled "RAPTURE / SNATCH" reference not many folks recognize.
[I stand by what I said previously: ""and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES) ]
This "[to be] CLOTHED-UPON" = "given a GLORIFIED BODY [APART FROM HAVING TO DIE FIRST as the "UNCLOTHED" mention in this text refers specifically to]"; That's what we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" and... it takes place for the MORTAL believers ("we which are ALIVE" component) and says, "that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (v.4)
This is a somewhat veiled "RAPTURE / SNATCH" reference not many folks recognize.
[I stand by what I said previously: ""and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible" refers to their "bodily-RESURRECTION" (meaning, their bodies will NO LONGER BE in their GRAVES) ]
It has nothing to with a rapture. Rapture is moving someone from one place to another, the verse is speaking of a mortal being changed into immortal. What happens is they are changed from mortal to immortal, and after that is done they will be raptured/moved to a new location. You are confusing a rapture with an immortality process. They are not the same but they do happen within moments of each other.
I'm saying that our "CHANGE" will take place ("IN A MOMENT"...) "AT THE LAST TRUMP" (at "our Rapture / SNATCH [G726]" time-slot).
I'm not defining the distinct terms IDENTICALLY as you are assuming I am doing.
"we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR the trumpet shall sound and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible and WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (Paul was tasked with: "Behold, I SHEW YOU a MYSTERY"--This is not what the OT saints all already WELL-KNEW!)
I'm not defining the distinct terms IDENTICALLY as you are assuming I am doing.
"we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR the trumpet shall sound and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible and WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (Paul was tasked with: "Behold, I SHEW YOU a MYSTERY"--This is not what the OT saints all already WELL-KNEW!)
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The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. The 5th seal shows dead Christians wanting vengeance but are told to wait until more of their own Christian brothers are killed like they were. That is the killing of Christians in the trib. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.
The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine. The only way to be gone is to commit Apostasy and leave the church which is Apostasia in the Greek and is what many teach is the rapture but it is Apostasy not Rapture. Even Apostates will still be here during the trib, just on the side of the Enemy.
The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine. The only way to be gone is to commit Apostasy and leave the church which is Apostasia in the Greek and is what many teach is the rapture but it is Apostasy not Rapture. Even Apostates will still be here during the trib, just on the side of the Enemy.
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Wrong. Someone can be ethnically a Jew but a Christian in religion.
Because the 2W are two olive trees AND TWO CANDLESTICKS and candlesticks are churches in the symbology of Rev.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"
As you see, the "two witnesses" are two of one thing and two of another.
------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witnesses".
Well I will try to answer questions so i can help explain my view.
Because the 2W are two olive trees AND TWO CANDLESTICKS and candlesticks are churches in the symbology of Rev.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"
As you see, the "two witnesses" are two of one thing and two of another.
------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witnesses".
Well I will try to answer questions so i can help explain my view.
I might as well throw my "silliness" into the pot!
Looking at the "Rapture"... I look at the 7 Feasts of Israel as a timetable, NOT a clock.... just use it as an "order of events.
Jesus Christ is fulfilling ALL things including the 7 Feasts of Israel. So far, Jesus Christ has fulfilled the first 4 and is about to wrap up the 5th Feast...
Feast 1 - Passover: Jesus is our Passover Lamb - Blood and Body = FINISHED
Feast 2 - Unleavened Bread: Jesus was buried = FINISHED
Feast 3 - First Fruits: Jesus' Resurrection - rose from the dead = FINISHED
Feast 4 - Pentecost: 50 Days after First Fruits - Outpouring of the Holy Spirit = FINISHED
Feast 5 - Trumpets: Gospel preached (blowing of trumpets) time of Gentiles = HAPPENING NOW (almost done)
Rapture occurs here - Jesus returns in the air to get His Bride - the 5 Wise Virgins
Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven
Feast 6 - Day of Atonement: Time of Tribulation Anti-Christ reigns - time of the Jews = NOT HAPPENED YET
Feast 7 - Tabernacles: Jesus Christ returns to Earth to rule and reign for 1,000 years = NOT HAPPENED YET
Great White Throne Judgment
New Heaven and New Earth
Okay, thanks for letting me add my silliness to the pot! Carry on!
Looking at the "Rapture"... I look at the 7 Feasts of Israel as a timetable, NOT a clock.... just use it as an "order of events.
Jesus Christ is fulfilling ALL things including the 7 Feasts of Israel. So far, Jesus Christ has fulfilled the first 4 and is about to wrap up the 5th Feast...
Feast 1 - Passover: Jesus is our Passover Lamb - Blood and Body = FINISHED
Feast 2 - Unleavened Bread: Jesus was buried = FINISHED
Feast 3 - First Fruits: Jesus' Resurrection - rose from the dead = FINISHED
Feast 4 - Pentecost: 50 Days after First Fruits - Outpouring of the Holy Spirit = FINISHED
Feast 5 - Trumpets: Gospel preached (blowing of trumpets) time of Gentiles = HAPPENING NOW (almost done)
Rapture occurs here - Jesus returns in the air to get His Bride - the 5 Wise Virgins
Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven
Feast 6 - Day of Atonement: Time of Tribulation Anti-Christ reigns - time of the Jews = NOT HAPPENED YET
Feast 7 - Tabernacles: Jesus Christ returns to Earth to rule and reign for 1,000 years = NOT HAPPENED YET
Great White Throne Judgment
New Heaven and New Earth
Okay, thanks for letting me add my silliness to the pot! Carry on!
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Soul-Garments, Death, and Resurrection
When the physical body dies, its soul becomes separated from its dwelling. The carnal soul soon descends to its kind in Hades/Hell. The righteous soul ascends to its kind in heaven, where it is “given a white robe” (Rev. 6:11) derived from that soulʼs “righteous acts” while on earth:
Revelation 3:5 “The one overcoming shall be clothed in white garments… 18 I counsel you to buy from Me…white garments, that you may be clothed, and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed…” 19:8 …the fine linen [garment] is the righteous acts of the saints. 1 Peter 5:5 …be clothed with humility…
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [= physical body] of our tabernacle [= soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed having been clothed we shall not be found naked… 4 …but…that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
* “This”/toutō is neuter, agreeing with verse 1ʼs tabernacle, not house.
Up until the End of the Age, the garments of the souls of the dead are comprised solely of either a heavenly or a hellish substance. These souls are therefore restricted to their respective heavenly and hellish realms. At the resurrection of the dead, however, the material (this earthly realmʼs) body will be raised and be restored to the souls of the dead, just as Jesusʼ body was to Him:
Luke 24:39 [After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to His disciples and said,] “Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Job 19:25 …I know that my Redeemer lives, and afterward He shall arise above the dust; 26 and after my skin they have stricken off of this body, yet from my flesh I shall behold God.
1 John 3:2 …we know that when He shines forth/is manifested, we shall be like Him…
When the great resurrection of the dead takes place, they will become physically re-embodied souls of all types of people:
Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall be caused to awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.” (For the latter, see Isaiah 66:24 and Micah 7:8-10.)
John 5:28 “…an hour comes in which all the ones in the graves will hear His [the Sonʼs] voice 29 and come forth: the ones having done good things to the resurrection of life, and the ones having done evil things to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Because many different kinds of souls will be restored to their bodies, they will appear in all kinds of bodily garments, for each soulʼs bodily form will henceforward conform to its thoughts and deeds. Ones having had a sexually lustful nature will therefore appear exposed and naked, and be shamed. Similarly, others will appear bestial in various ways; and so on.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” … 38 God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Daniel 12:3 “But the ones having been intelligent/prudent [המשכלים] shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and the ones having turned many to righteousness shall shine like the stars, forever and ever.”
https://www.worthychristianforums.c...east-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/