Understanding God’s election
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That is true. When it comes to the EXTENT of sin throughout the world, scripture teaches that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God...". So, all is to be understood in the quantitative sense. Rom 3 confirms this. But the chapter does not inform us to the depth of sin qualitatively in each and every person.
It appears you don't believe that God restrains sin in this world, do you? He just let's each of us do our own thing? Do as much evil as we want?
It appears you don't believe that God restrains sin in this world, do you? He just let's each of us do our own thing? Do as much evil as we want?
But can anything happen in this world apart from God's will? Can anything happen outside of God's purview? If an insignificant, lowly sparrow cannot fall to the ground apart from His perfect will then how can we think that something so significant as the Fall of God's original image-bearer that resulted in unimaginable, devastating consequences to this very day for the entire human race and indeed to the entire creation could have occurred by chance? If the Fall of mankind happened outside of God's will then we could only conclude that it occurred by chance or Satan outwitted God. When the evil one sinned and he and his rebellious legions of followers were cast down to the earth that was given to A&E that alone should tell us that God's hand was involved. Why didn't God cast all the fallen angels into hell immediately instead of casting them down into His pristine, "very good" earth? Other strong biblical, creation evidence as well points to God fully anticipating the Fall, especially when we compare the Genesis creation account with the New Creation account as recorded for us in Rev 21-22.
Also, we shouldn't ignore the first prophecy recorded in the bible. And, no, the first prophecy is not to be found in the Gen 3 post-fall, account as so many seem to think, but rather in this pre-fall text:
Gen 2:17
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for WHEN you eat of it you will surely die."
NIV
Notice that the text does not say "IF you eat of it...".
Has any prophecy in the bible ever come to past apart from God's eternal decree?
Finally, why can't the Fall of Man be likened to all the evils that befell Joseph, except of course on steroids many times over? Since God purposed all those evils for Joseph and yet turned them inside out and upside down by bringing much good out of them, then how can anyone say He hasn't he been doing the very same thing all these centuries with the Fall of Mankind? And wasn't God, in the end, glorified through Joseph's life? How much more so, then, by Adam and the Last Adam who was sent into this world to turn Adam's sin on its head by bringing much good to many out of his evil and the evil that was purposed by the devil?
Perhaps later I'll expand more on this biblical idea that I just expressed in the above paragraph.
Also, we shouldn't ignore the first prophecy recorded in the bible. And, no, the first prophecy is not to be found in the Gen 3 post-fall, account as so many seem to think, but rather in this pre-fall text:
Gen 2:17
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for WHEN you eat of it you will surely die."
NIV
Notice that the text does not say "IF you eat of it...".
Has any prophecy in the bible ever come to past apart from God's eternal decree?
Finally, why can't the Fall of Man be likened to all the evils that befell Joseph, except of course on steroids many times over? Since God purposed all those evils for Joseph and yet turned them inside out and upside down by bringing much good out of them, then how can anyone say He hasn't he been doing the very same thing all these centuries with the Fall of Mankind? And wasn't God, in the end, glorified through Joseph's life? How much more so, then, by Adam and the Last Adam who was sent into this world to turn Adam's sin on its head by bringing much good to many out of his evil and the evil that was purposed by the devil?
Perhaps later I'll expand more on this biblical idea that I just expressed in the above paragraph.
It appears the FWs have again abandoned ship. But just in case there's at least one brave FW, I have another question to ask since no one provided an answer to the one I asked a few days ago and then again yesterday re 2Cor 4:1-6. Perhaps some FW will like this next question better that pertains to this passage:
2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NIV
Paul is revealing to the Thessalonians exactly how they became saved. And it's highly important to note in this passage that he didn't tell them what the vast majority of FWs believe; that is to say, he didn't tell them that they were saved through their freewill decision to believe the Gospel truth and then sanctification followed their decision. No! Instead, he tells them the exact opposite. They were saved "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit AND through belief in the truth". This is the logical and theological order of their salvation. But how could this possibly be, according to FWT? Sanctification, unlike Justification, is an ongoing process. It's a process of WORK performed by the Holy Spirit. And in this passage the work process by the Spirit precedes faith, i.e. "belief in the truth". Faith in the truth flows from the Spirit's efficacious work in the souls, hearts and minds of God's chosen people. Also, this passage provides strong affirmation for my belief that both the Holy Spirit and Special or Divine Revelation (Gospel truth in this case) are both critically necessary components to one's salvation. FWs often emphasize the latter to the exclusion or virtual exclusion of the former!
Furthermore, this passage harmonizes beautifully with what most Reformers believe about the Spirit's work of Regeneration. I have consistently maintained that Regeneration is also a process since the "new birth" metaphor strongly suggests this; for just as physical life is a process that begins in a woman's womb and is consummated at birth, it is likewise with spiritual life. We can know when spiritual life in is this age is consummated whenever someone believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord and confesses Him with their mouth. This heart-held faith and confession, therefore, is the true sign of actual spiritual birth from above!
So, how can this be FWs? And clearly, Paul did not qualify the work of sanctification by the Spirit by saying, for example, that "God chose you through the sanctifying work of the Spirit to make your salvation possible"! Or so that "perhaps you'd come to belief in the truth". Paul flat out unqualified the Spirit's work.
So, FWs, how do you square the truth of this passage with your egregious error of FWT?
2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NIV
Paul is revealing to the Thessalonians exactly how they became saved. And it's highly important to note in this passage that he didn't tell them what the vast majority of FWs believe; that is to say, he didn't tell them that they were saved through their freewill decision to believe the Gospel truth and then sanctification followed their decision. No! Instead, he tells them the exact opposite. They were saved "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit AND through belief in the truth". This is the logical and theological order of their salvation. But how could this possibly be, according to FWT? Sanctification, unlike Justification, is an ongoing process. It's a process of WORK performed by the Holy Spirit. And in this passage the work process by the Spirit precedes faith, i.e. "belief in the truth". Faith in the truth flows from the Spirit's efficacious work in the souls, hearts and minds of God's chosen people. Also, this passage provides strong affirmation for my belief that both the Holy Spirit and Special or Divine Revelation (Gospel truth in this case) are both critically necessary components to one's salvation. FWs often emphasize the latter to the exclusion or virtual exclusion of the former!
Furthermore, this passage harmonizes beautifully with what most Reformers believe about the Spirit's work of Regeneration. I have consistently maintained that Regeneration is also a process since the "new birth" metaphor strongly suggests this; for just as physical life is a process that begins in a woman's womb and is consummated at birth, it is likewise with spiritual life. We can know when spiritual life in is this age is consummated whenever someone believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord and confesses Him with their mouth. This heart-held faith and confession, therefore, is the true sign of actual spiritual birth from above!
So, how can this be FWs? And clearly, Paul did not qualify the work of sanctification by the Spirit by saying, for example, that "God chose you through the sanctifying work of the Spirit to make your salvation possible"! Or so that "perhaps you'd come to belief in the truth". Paul flat out unqualified the Spirit's work.
So, FWs, how do you square the truth of this passage with your egregious error of FWT?
I tend to categorize God's will -(if that is the correct term)- into three parts: you called it (well, I corrected it to) discretionary, but I see God's will as being permissive, moral, and sovereign. We all (I would think) understand that God has a sovereign will [although I have seen plenty of grumbling about it from our free willers], and God's moral will is made plain to us through His character and commandments, and then there is His permissive will, which is what He allows, which is well within His knowledge/omniscience, but not what I would say to be decreed or (I am thinking there is another word I want here but can't quite grasp it in the moment) and I think many would agree that it is NOT God's will for any to murder, steal, rape or lie etc. That would make Him the author of evil.
This link below may help us to understand God's will better.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Read carefully the comments about his "permissive" will in which he still actively makes choices to not intervene or interfere but to allow a thing to come to past, such as he did with all evil that Joseph suffered.
Hope you're feeling better.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Read carefully the comments about his "permissive" will in which he still actively makes choices to not intervene or interfere but to allow a thing to come to past, such as he did with all evil that Joseph suffered.
Hope you're feeling better.
Here is not only God's will for ALL men, but also God's proving action:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Nothing in the context can be construed to try and make this say anything other than what it says very plainly and clearly for all to see. Given that the Father and Christ are One, it not just Christ who draws ALL men to Him, but also the Father, for Jesus also said that He does nothing but what He sees the Father doing:
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
So, the Father draws ALL men, and Christ draws ALL men. So much for Calvinistic nonsense about the Lord allegedly predetermining who will go to Hell...
Some will, many will not respond to that drawing of ALL men...NEXT?
MM
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Nothing in the context can be construed to try and make this say anything other than what it says very plainly and clearly for all to see. Given that the Father and Christ are One, it not just Christ who draws ALL men to Him, but also the Father, for Jesus also said that He does nothing but what He sees the Father doing:
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
So, the Father draws ALL men, and Christ draws ALL men. So much for Calvinistic nonsense about the Lord allegedly predetermining who will go to Hell...
Some will, many will not respond to that drawing of ALL men...NEXT?
MM
This link below may help us to understand God's will better.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Read carefully the comments about his "permissive" will in which he still actively makes choices to not intervene or interfere but to allow a thing to come to past, such as he did with all evil that Joseph suffered.
Hope you're feeling better.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Read carefully the comments about his "permissive" will in which he still actively makes choices to not intervene or interfere but to allow a thing to come to past, such as he did with all evil that Joseph suffered.
Hope you're feeling better.
Hope you're feeling better.
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I'll respond. I knew Jn 12:32 was waiting close in the wings because you've been on this " God draws" schtick persistently.
Since you think that "all" here is being used in the distributive sense, what about those in the world who have not heard the gospel? Or what about the wicked who were appointed to be disobedient (1Pet 2:8)? And since the Father and the Son are drawing each and every person on the planet to them, then why did Jesus omit "each and every person" in his High Priestly prayer in John 17? Or don't you know that Jesus came to save only his people (Mat 1:21)? Since this is the case, then how do you reconcile this with your "drawing each and every person"? Why would God draw everyone planet when he intends to save only his people (the elect)?
Or what about all the passages in scripture that employ "universal" terms, yet those terms are quite often used in a limited sense? Take Act 21:28a, as an example. Do you truly believe Paul taught each and every man on the planet? Or what about Lk 2:30-32: Did each and every person in the world see "salvation" (Jesus)? Or what about Mat 10:22: Did each and every person on the planet hate his disciples?
Don't be simple-minded, my friend. The Wisdom Books in the OT, especially, do not speak favorably of such. Do a word study and word usage study, then get back to us.
Have a pleasant evening, sir.
Since you think that "all" here is being used in the distributive sense, what about those in the world who have not heard the gospel? Or what about the wicked who were appointed to be disobedient (1Pet 2:8)? And since the Father and the Son are drawing each and every person on the planet to them, then why did Jesus omit "each and every person" in his High Priestly prayer in John 17? Or don't you know that Jesus came to save only his people (Mat 1:21)? Since this is the case, then how do you reconcile this with your "drawing each and every person"? Why would God draw everyone planet when he intends to save only his people (the elect)?
Or what about all the passages in scripture that employ "universal" terms, yet those terms are quite often used in a limited sense? Take Act 21:28a, as an example. Do you truly believe Paul taught each and every man on the planet? Or what about Lk 2:30-32: Did each and every person in the world see "salvation" (Jesus)? Or what about Mat 10:22: Did each and every person on the planet hate his disciples?
Don't be simple-minded, my friend. The Wisdom Books in the OT, especially, do not speak favorably of such. Do a word study and word usage study, then get back to us.
Have a pleasant evening, sir.
John 6:37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
MM
If you believe what you just wrote then you are a Universalist. Everyone on the planet is saved!
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV
Not one statement in this passage is qualified; therefore, since you think "all" is being used in the distributive sense, then this must logically mean each and every person on the planet will have eternal life and will be raised up on the last day.
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV
Not one statement in this passage is qualified; therefore, since you think "all" is being used in the distributive sense, then this must logically mean each and every person on the planet will have eternal life and will be raised up on the last day.