Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

So, it appears that you're pretty much on the same page as my new-found pastor is. He believes that Jesus in his divine nature could not have sinned, but in his human nature he could have. Prior to hearing this and the pastor's short explanation, I was pretty firmly in the Impeccability of Christ camp. But now...this pastor has got me thinking. Could Jesus have been fully human if, unlike Adam, he didn't have the capacity to sin in his human nature?

The Virgin Birth is a very important doctrine. For the longest time I believed it was necessary so that Christ would escape the sin nature; for I postulated that the inherited sin nature is likely passed on to all Adam's progeny through the male's sperm; hence, the need for the virgin birth. But I no longer think mankind's sin nature is really the issue regarding the nature of Christ's two natures. Adam sinned apart from having any sin nature! In fact, I also believe he sinned while being alive unto God in the Holy Spirit, for otherwise how could Adam have died spiritually on the day he disobeyed? Death always logically presupposes antecedent life! Only the living can die! So, it seem now the only true significance to the virgin birth was to sidestep the imputation of Adam's sin to Christ.

“Adam sinned apart from having any sin nature! In fact, I also believe he sinned while being alive unto God”

yes I agree , I believe actually everyone is born alive to God and then later we sin and fall under condemnation of death. I’m not trying or wanting to debate that or change subject but just saying what my opinion is there .

“So, it seem now the only true significance to the virgin birth was to sidestep the imputation of Adam's sin to Christ”

imputation of adams sin ? Adam sinned and died for his sin . Deaths only claim to a person is sin. The reason death could not hold jesus is because he never sinned like Adam and the rest of us have . When Adam died he stayed down when we die , we’ll stay down

when jesus died he rose up because he had no sin.

i think here would be where we would begin having two diverging ideas I believe this was true of Adam and is true of all souls

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“but in his human nature he could have. Prior to hearing this and the pastor's short explanation, I was pretty firmly in the Impeccability of Christ camp. But now...this pastor has got me thinking. Could Jesus have been fully human if, unlike Adam, he didn't have the capacity to sin in his human nature?”

what your saying here about human nature , is what I would say comes when you have flesh. In a world that’s like this

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:

but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

jesus became flesh and walked tbrough a world constantly tempting and trying to consume us he felt what we feel but he overcam me it sticking with God when tempted and tested and out to trials and tribulations

have you ever noticed this verse ? Many I don’t think have and it gives a perspective of Jesus tbat some can benefit from pondering this subject

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So when you’re asking “ was Jesus capable of sinning “ I personally believe just my own though Jesus became a man and anyone who has flesh is able to do good or evil and our spirit inside our body needs to make choices between good and evil .

But Jesus chose to resist his flesh and follow after the Will of God and never sinned as we all have so in other words

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:5-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can learn a lot from just letting scripture be true and sink into our thinking especially when we’re really inquiring if something scripture always has answers

 

[Rufus]

I have not assumed that the "disciples" who followed Jesus to the other side of Galilee were true believers. I specifically said that they were not, even though they came all the way around the lake to Jesus drawn by the Father. You re equating "coming to Jesus" with believing in Him. John 6 does not equate them at all.

I don't expect someone, so prone as you to falling into logical fallacies, has much hope of understanding "the logical flow of Jesus' teaching."



Jhn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The Greek word "all" there is pan. It is neuter singular meaning "everything" not "everyone". Every circumstance the Father gave Jesus to deal with was inevitable, as far as Jesus was concerned, and Jesus' responsibility was to deal faithfully with every circumstance, not to find ways to avoid them.



Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This says that God's will is that everyone who both sees and believes on the Son should have aeonous life. You rightly say that seeing the Son is not enough, but faith is required. You fail to register that many who were looking at Jesus in John 6 had come to Him, but were not yet believing in Him. The evidence of John 6 is clearly that one can come to Jesus and see Him without believing in Him and so without receiving aeonous life. By imposing your theological presuppositions onto the text, you assume something the text does not say: that God guarantees that all who come to Jesus will believe in Him.




Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 does not mention the Father giving anyone to the Son. It speaks of the Father drawing people to the Son. We know that all who are in the graves will hear the voice of Jesus on the last day and rise: some to judgment and contempt , and some to glory and honour. IMHO the reason Jesus warns that He will raise ALL whom the Father drew to Jesus, is to warn those who come to Him that he will hold them accountable for what they do with Him, and He will determine in which of the two resurrections each one will be raised.



Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus does say He will raise up those who receive and digest and incorporate His Word and Spirit. However, this does not mean that only those people will be raised at the last day. To assume this text is saying that only those who belive will be raised is for you to fall yet again into the negative inference fallacy.



Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

There is no mention of the elect anywhere in John 6 until Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

And there, one of the elect is a devil, but nevertheless chosen by Jesus for service as an apostle, in which Judas proved unfaithful, despite having been drawn to Jesus and coming to Jesus and spending 3 years with Jesus. Again, someone drawn to Jesus by the Father, and who came to Jesus, but who forfeited the aeonous life that required faith in Jesus. Judas completely contradicts your eisegesis of the text of John 6.

You say, "In each every case in the four sets of passages, Jesus makes it clear that all those whom the Father gives to him and draws to him, that the Lord will in fact "raise [them] up on the last day" -- clearly alluding to the resurrection of the righteous at the Parousia."

But many in John 6 were drawn and came but did not believe, and so will not be included in the resurrection of the righteous. Your claims, eisegeting your preferred theology into John 6, simply contradict what the text of John 6 says.

But the "many in Johh 6 were NOT drawn by God! This fact is precisely the reason for Jesus giving his Bread of Life discourse in the first place! For the umpteenth time, Jesus was instructing these false believers on what it really means to "come to him". Yes, they were "drawn" okay -- but by their OWN profane, carnal, unholy, worldly lusts! God did not draw these people to Jesus. These people were the kind described in Mat 13:24! The people who followed Jesus were indeed trying to force their way into the kingdom and make Jesus king on their own terms, not God's!

In makes zero sense to postulate that both those whom the Father doesn't draw and many of those whom he has drawn & given to the Son, nevertheless were not able to enter the kingdom or come to the Son, most especially given the UNQUALIFIED statements that teach that God enables all those who do come to him. But nowhere in this passage does Jesus teach that God also enables many others to come to him who still reject him!

And tell us, please, with chapter and verse, how non-believers are going to be raised up with the righteous dead on the last day. Haven't you read that "the just shall be justified by faith"? Or that it's impossible to please God without faith? Now you want us to swallow another horse pill by believing non-believers will participate in the Resurrection of the Righteous on the last day?

Judas was another false believer who you're assuming God drew to Jesus! But where in scripture does it say that Judas chose to be one of Christ's disciples? Or that God drew Judas to his Son? Quite the contrary! Jesus chose Judas, knowing full well that he was ordained by the Father in eternity to betray Him! Jesus deliberately, intentionally and purposefully chose a devil to "follow him". Now, we are to believe that the Father gave this devil to his Son!? Are you insane!? You will blaspheme God to no end in order to try to support your man-centered theology.

 

[Rufus]

“Adam sinned apart from having any sin nature! In fact, I also believe he sinned while being alive unto God”

yes I agree , I believe actually everyone is born alive to God and then later we sin and fall under condemnation of death. I’m not trying or wanting to debate that or change subject but just saying what my opinion is there .

“So, it seem now the only true significance to the virgin birth was to sidestep the imputation of Adam's sin to Christ”

imputation of adams sin ? Adam sinned and died for his sin . Deaths only claim to a person is sin. The reason death could not hold jesus is because he never sinned like Adam and the rest of us have . When Adam died he stayed down when we die , we’ll stay down

when jesus died he rose up because he had no sin.

i think here would be where we would begin having two diverging ideas I believe this was true of Adam and is true of all souls

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“but in his human nature he could have. Prior to hearing this and the pastor's short explanation, I was pretty firmly in the Impeccability of Christ camp. But now...this pastor has got me thinking. Could Jesus have been fully human if, unlike Adam, he didn't have the capacity to sin in his human nature?”

what your saying here about human nature , is what I would say comes when you have flesh. In a world that’s like this

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:

but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

jesus became flesh and walked tbrough a world constantly tempting and trying to consume us he felt what we feel but he overcam me it sticking with God when tempted and tested and out to trials and tribulations

have you ever noticed this verse ? Many I don’t think have and it gives a perspective of Jesus tbat some can benefit from pondering this subject

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So when you’re asking “ was Jesus capable of sinning “ I personally believe just my own though Jesus became a man and anyone who has flesh is able to do good or evil and our spirit inside our body needs to make choices between good and evil .

But Jesus chose to resist his flesh and follow after the Will of God and never sinned as we all have so in other words

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:5-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can learn a lot from just letting scripture be true and sink into our thinking especially when we’re really inquiring if something scripture always has answers

After this latest tome of yours I'm still not clear on whether or not you agree with my premise, which by this time you have likely forgotten anyhow. Many words are truly meaningless (Eccl 5:7).

And for your info, if you don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin and that Adam's sin was imputed to all his progeny, then how can you believe that the Last Adam's righteousness is imputed to all his elect offspring's souls? No one comes into this world born alive unto God. We all came into it spiritually stillborn! Adam's SIN ruined the entire human race; for Adam is mankind's federal head, whether you like that or not.

 

[studier]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (Elkō) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all (pas - masc plural) be taught by God.' Therefore everyone (pas - masc singular) who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

• In 6:45 Jesus references NKJ Isaiah 54:13 All (pas - masc plural) your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.
• Elkō (draws):
  • BDAG Lexicon (my highlighting):
    • 1. to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover τὶ someth. a sword.
    • 2. to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract, an extended fig. use of mng.
  • NC Occurrences and classifications of uses in BDAG:
    • #2:
      • NKJ Jn. 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
      • NKJ Jn. 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
    • #1
      • NKJ Jn. 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
      • NKJ Jn. 21:6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
      • NKJ Jn. 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.
      • NKJ Acts 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.
      • NKJ Acts 21:30 And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.
      • NKJ Jas. 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
• A few observations to start:
  • Very literally looking at the Greek and Hebrew, Jesus references Is54:13 that says: all your sons [are] taught [ones or men] [of/by] YHWH (I'm going to cut through a lot of Scripture re: "your sons")
    • So, all YHWH's sons are taught/learned sons of YHWH
      • Therefore (reasoning), every man who hears and learns from God the Father comes/is coming to Jesus
        • No man can/is able to come to Jesus if God the Father does not draw Him [to Jesus with His teaching/His Word per J6:44-45]
          • Summary: God draws men to come to Jesus by teaching men His Word (per J6:44-45)
  • Jesus is reasoning from OC Scripture
    • If all YHWH's sons are learned of/taught by YHWH
      • Then every man who hears and learns from God the Father (God's drawing) comes to Jesus
  • Jesus in these few verses alone has not clarified re: belief
  • Jesus says every man who hears and learns from God the Father comes to Jesus
    • Jesus does not say that every man whom God the Father draws/teaches comes to Jesus

 

[Rufus]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (Elkō) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all (pas - masc plural) be taught by God.' Therefore everyone (pas - masc singular) who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

• In 6:45 Jesus references NKJ Isaiah 54:13 All (pas - masc plural) your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.
• Elkō (draws):
  • BDAG Lexicon (my highlighting):
    • 1. to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover τὶ someth. a sword.
    • 2. to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract, an extended fig. use of mng.
  • NC Occurrences and classifications of uses in BDAG:
    • #2:
      • NKJ Jn. 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
      • NKJ Jn. 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
    • #1
      • NKJ Jn. 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
      • NKJ Jn. 21:6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
      • NKJ Jn. 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.
      • NKJ Acts 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.
      • NKJ Acts 21:30 And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.
      • NKJ Jas. 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
• A few observations to start:
  • Very literally looking at the Greek and Hebrew, Jesus references Is54:13 that says: all your sons [are] taught [ones or men] [of/by] YHWH (I'm going to cut through a lot of Scripture re: "your sons")
    • So, all YHWH's sons are taught/learned sons of YHWH
      • Therefore (reasoning), every man who hears and learns from God the Father comes/is coming to Jesus
        • No man can/is able to come to Jesus if God the Father does not draw Him [to Jesus with His teaching/His Word per J6:44-45]
          • Summary: God draws men to come to Jesus by teaching men His Word (per J6:44-45)
  • Jesus is reasoning from OC Scripture
    • If all YHWH's sons are learned of/taught by YHWH
      • Then every man who hears and learns from God the Father (God's drawing) comes to Jesus
  • Jesus in these few verses alone has not clarified re: belief
  • Jesus says every man who hears and learns from God the Father comes to Jesus
    • Jesus does not say that every man whom God the Father draws/teaches comes to Jesus

He most certainly did!

John 6:35-40
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

 

[studier]

I have questions for both you but will start here:

Where does scripture say that all those drawn by God become believers? wher does scripture say that there is anyone who has not been at any time drawn by God toward Christ? Where does scripture say that God's drawing must be efficacious? Where does scripture say that God's purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ?

The very fact that no one CAN come to Jesus apart from God's drawing his people to Christ, means just that!

• Means "just what" – all that @PaulThomson asked?
  • No man CAN come to Jesus apart from God’s drawing means all of the following?
    • All those drawn become believers
    • There is no one who has not been drawn
    • God’s drawing must be efficacious
    • God’s purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ

The text is equally saying, no one can come to me on their own initiative, or on the power of their or will, or by the power of their own desires. After all, no one seeks after God, remember (Rom 3:11)?

• There are a few questions to be asked here for some clarification, but I’ll pass for now to try to maintain some focus.

Therefore, since this is also the case, then God must take the initiative by seeking his people out and drawing them to his Son, otherwise no one would be saved.

• Does either side of this debate deny that God takes the initiative?

So...one thing is for certain: when people refuse to come to Christ, we can be sure that they have not been drawn by God.

• Where does Scripture say this?
  • John6:44 says nothing about refusal to come to Christ.
  • John6:44 speaks of ability to come to Christ.
    • Ability to come means neither do come or don’t come – neither refusal nor acceptance.
• Looking at this eisegetical concept of refusal, people not drawn refuse seems to be saying people drawn accept
  • Yet John6:44a says neither of these things
  • John6:44b begins some instruction implying that a man being drawn comes but it is not final instruction on the matter.

Or when false disciples believe for a time but fall away because the "soil" of their heart is bad (as was the case with the people Jesus was addressing in Jn 6:22), we can be sure that God didn't draw them either.

• False disciples are discussed later in John6:60 where it says “many of His disciples” so we can’t be certain the soil of all hearts addressed in John6:22… was bad.
• We can’t be sure from John6:44-45 that all those who fall away were not originally drawn

Now...how we can know these things for sure is due to the unqualified nature of Jesus' words! Two can play your game, Mr. PT, of what the passage doesn't say! Jn 6:44, for example, Jesus in the last part did not say that perhaps he'll raise those up on the last day those who come to him.

• In John6:44 Jesus did not say that He would raise all those who are drawn.
• Nor did Jesus say in John6:45 that He would raise all those who were drawn.
• Jesus said no man has the ability to come to Him if God did not draw them.
  • Jesus will raise a man who has been drawn to Jesus – has been given ability by the Father to come to Jesus – does not say all men given ability to come to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised by Jesus.
• Jesus said every man who hears and learns from the Father comes to Him.

Nor did the Lord say that those the Father draws to me will maybe or possibly come to Me.

• Nor did Jesus say in John6:44-45 that all whom the Father draws come to Me.

Rather, he flat out exerts that all who come "I will raise him up on the last day". No, "ands, buts or ifs" about it! Nothing qualified in this statement.

• Jesus asserts:
  • No man can come to Him if the Father does not draw him 6:44a
  • Jesus will raise a man who comes to Him 6:44b
  • Every man who hears and learns from the Father come to Him 6:45
• It seems to me that Jesus’ assertion in John6:44-45 is:
  • A man is able to come to Jesus – if God the Father draws a man to Jesus
  • God the Father draws/enables a man to come to Jesus by teaching him
  • The man who hears and learns from God the Father’s teaching comes to Jesus
  • Jesus will raise all men who hear and learn from God the Father and come to Jesus as a result

Moreover, since Jesus promises to raise up all those who come to him, he implicitly equated this supernaturally-induced coming with actual faith! Is Jesus going to raise up to life anyone who doesn't have faith!? How could he, since without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 4:12)?

• There has not been any mention of “supernaturally-induced coming”.
  • All we’ve been taught is that God the Father is drawing men to come to Jesus Christ by teaching them.
  • So, there is no equation between the eisegesis/inserted “supernaturally-induced coming” with “actual faith”.
  • In John6 Jesus does speak of belief in Him. It would be nice to see all this debate establish where and how He does so in John6 but I’ve seen no equating of drawn-taught-heard-learned-come to “actual faith”.
    • Is there an actual faith and a false faith?

But we have more proof that what I just wrote is true in vv. 53-54. First, in v. 53, he told those false disciples who chased after him with carnal motives, that unless [by faith] they eat his flesh and drink his blood, they have no [eternal] life within them! In other, they were still dead in their sins!

• More proof of eisegeted “supernaturally induced coming” equated with “actual faith”?
• In 6:52 John tells us in 6:53 that Jesus told some “Judeans” about eating His flesh and drinking His blood
• There is much more going on in this part of John6 than a simple discussion of faith or actual faith.

Then in v.54, he contrasts the fake disciples with true, genuine believers! Those who eat His flesh and drink His blood HAVE (presently) eternal life! Note carefully: He did not say they "will have eternal life" but rather they presently have it! This preserves the contrasting parallel with v.53, since the fake believers Jesus was addressing presently had no life within them!

• Maybe, but too many holes before we get here.
• There’re also some more verb tenses that should be looked at especially since Jesus speaks of abiding in Him just a few verses later.

Moreover, v.54 goes on to say at the end the same thing Jesus said earlier in v.44: That he who [by faith] eats his flesh and drink his blood, "I will raise him up on the last day"! Therefore, those who come to Jesus [by faith] through the [efficacious] drawing of the Father (v.44) and those who [by faith] eat His flesh and drink his blood in v.54 are one and the same people; for both verses teach they will be raised up on the last day! These two verses are parallel to each other positively. Jesus, in v.54 was simply providing more detail by explaining what it means to "come to him" through the drawing of the Father.

• Too many assumptions and loaded terminology.

Finally, v.47 also ties both of the aforementioned passages together, since faith is clearly in view. Those who believe presently have life, which is how Jesus could promise in vv. 44 and 54 that "I will raise him up on the last day"!

• 6:47 is not a “finally” in the flow of the instruction and “faith” – whether actual or false (since “actual faith” was previously asserted in this argument) should have been clarified and connected much earlier since it follows 6:44-45.
• As I recall @PaulThompson had some interesting arguments about 6:44-47 last time we discussed these verses.

 

[studier]

Referring to John6:44-45

Jesus does not say that every man whom God the Father draws/teaches comes to Jesus

He most certainly did!

John 6:35-40
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

John6:44 God drawing a man does not equate on its own to John6:37a all (neut) that the Father gives to Me 6:37b and the man who comes to Me

Look at 6:44-45 together - including every man who hears & learns from the Father comes to Me - then look back at 6:37b.

After this is a discussion about who and what the Father gives to Jesus and IMcurrentO this is where we should be focusing in on Election. But it's hard to talk about this with all the other debate.

IMO @PaulThomson is correct that you're getting into Negative Inference Fallacy and a few more in some of the things you've said. But I also know that such things have been discussed in the scholarly ranks for many, many years, so the hopes of resolving this here is quite low to say the least. FWIW, I don't always agree with @PaulThomson either, but we do get down into the Text and he typically puts forth some arguments where I've found it necessary to go back into some language instruction to consider and reconsider.

Also, FWIW I appreciated what @Musicmaster said recently about the title of this thread and how these 9,000 posts have done little to nothing to conform to the OP.

 

[Musicmaster]

As I stated earlier, I do not pretend to fully understand why God chooses to save some and not others, since we each deserve His wrath! But, it is clear that this is the truth. He tells us that He will have mercy on some and not others. Do we have the right to complain and proclaim this to be unfair!

As to His electing some to hell, I don't see that as being necessary since fallen man does not love God and has a natural desire to do things his own way. If God withholds His mercy, then we can choose no other direction and remain without excuse!

God does not owe this mercy to anyone, but provides it to some by grace alone.

One thing I've tried to steer clear of is to assume the meaning of salvation into key words such as "mercy", while ignoring that the Lord calls ALL men to salvation, which means that ALL men are capable of turning their faith toward the Lord that He will save them. Most choose to not answer the call upon all mankind for salvation, which is why they are held responsible for their rejection given that they were clearly empowered to seek Him for salvation.

I agree with you that being elect to the special purposes of God's choosing and callings, we have no insight into any of that, but salvation is available to ALL mankind given that the Father draws ALL mankind to Christ. Of THAT we can be assured by what scripture clearly states that I quoted in my above post from John 12:32.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

After this latest tome of yours I'm still not clear on whether or not you agree with my premise, which by this time you have likely forgotten anyhow. Many words are truly meaningless (Eccl 5:7).

And for your info, if you don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin and that Adam's sin was imputed to all his progeny, then how can you believe that the Last Adam's righteousness is imputed to all his elect offspring's souls? No one comes into this world born alive unto God. We all came into it spiritually stillborn! Adam's SIN ruined the entire human race; for Adam is mankind's federal head, whether you like that or not.

“After this latest tome of yours I'm still not clear on whether or not you agree with my premise, which by this time you have likely forgotten anyhow. Many words are truly meaningless (Eccl 5:7).”

just responding to what you said ….maybe we aren’t going to be able to discuss if you don’t like how I respond sorry about that but makes it pretty much impossible for me. You seem to just ignore it and complain it’s to long or whatever your insults there are o tended to communicate lol I sort of tune out of thier types of thkngs so I don’t really know

And ( long exaggerated sigh lol ) Yeah I agreed with part of what you said when I said yes I agree with this part and quoted it …..and then what I believe left off from what you had said and thats why I used words to reply after I said I didn’t agree with your premise lol and somehow you aren’t clear about if I did ?



but yeah there’s a lot of ways avoid that each other says ? Especially when scriptire is quoted that supports anyones idea ….

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like a good idea to consider that each person is held accountable for thier own sins not other peoples

“for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t have to answer for adams sin but for our own sins

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I believe that idea not that we’re all dead spiritually because Adam sinned . If that’s your concept of “original sin “ then I believe a lot differently like lol I explained to you in tbe last post you didn’t read or didn’t like or whatever it was

i believe Adam was held accountable for his sin and caused mankind to now have to walk and choose between good and evil , but we only die because we sin. He. Roughy sin and death into our lives and we then sin and die ourselves like he did

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( that’s what Adams transgression caused sin and death to come into the world )


and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( that’s why death passes onto a person because they sin like Adam did and death then came upon him as God warned )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But There’s a lot of words in tbe Bible but they aren’t meaningless , only when we wont listen to what it is they are communicating. And explain other things.

i don’t think I would agree with your theory of original sin but im still
NOt sure what you mean by it people have different theories when they say phrases like that . If people use those phrases here it’s always important to ask what it is they mean by the phrase because it’s seldom the same understanding between two people

P.s . Disclaimer : The reason I wrote these words back to you is an attempt to respond in a conversation. Regarding what you said to me priorly.

awe may not be able to discuss anything if you can’t accept the way I respond and that’s alright if that’s the case no worries or offense or anything

To simplify adams transgression caused us to be sinners having both good and evil in us and around us . now we have to overcome like he told cain the firstborn man Adam caused this

adam caused this situation for mankind he wasn’t created in this situation he caused it for us with his sin

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He caused this to happen

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We are meant to know what God tells us his judgements between good and evil and not try to make our own just trust his word and live . That’s what Jesus is calling people back to in the gospel hearing his word and having eternal life with him

 

[Rufus]

I have questions for both you but will start here:

• Means "just what" – all that @PaulThomson asked?
  • No man CAN come to Jesus apart from God’s drawing means all of the following?
    • All those drawn become believers
    • There is no one who has not been drawn
    • God’s drawing must be efficacious
    • God’s purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ

• There are a few questions to be asked here for some clarification, but I’ll pass for now to try to maintain some focus.

• Does either side of this debate deny that God takes the initiative?

• Where does Scripture say this?
  • John6:44 says nothing about refusal to come to Christ.
  • John6:44 speaks of ability to come to Christ.
    • Ability to come means neither do come or don’t come – neither refusal nor acceptance.
• Looking at this eisegetical concept of refusal, people not drawn refuse seems to be saying people drawn accept
  • Yet John6:44a says neither of these things
  • John6:44b begins some instruction implying that a man being drawn comes but it is not final instruction on the matter.

• False disciples are discussed later in John6:60 where it says “many of His disciples” so we can’t be certain the soil of all hearts addressed in John6:22… was bad.
• We can’t be sure from John6:44-45 that all those who fall away were not originally drawn

• In John6:44 Jesus did not say that He would raise all those who are drawn.
• Nor did Jesus say in John6:45 that He would raise all those who were drawn.
• Jesus said no man has the ability to come to Him if God did not draw them.
  • Jesus will raise a man who has been drawn to Jesus – has been given ability by the Father to come to Jesus – does not say all men given ability to come to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised by Jesus.
• Jesus said every man who hears and learns from the Father comes to Him.

Bravo! You finally got something right. But Jesus did say in a different place what you claim he never said. Again, read Jn 6:36-40! The phrase, "I will raise him them up on the last day" applies to four different subsets of passages within this large passsage.

You conveniently ignore the above passage, so let me quote for you: Perhaps one day, it'll stick in your mind:

John 6:36-40
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

Note carefully these FACTS:

1. ALL (not some, many or few) who the Father gives to the Son WILL come to the Son! (Unqualified statement).
2. All who come, Jesus will never drive away. (Makes sense since God drives away only his enemies!)
3. All who come will persevere because Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, keeps them. He loses NONE of ALL who were given.
4. Jesus reinforces the above point by promising to raise them up on the last day.
5. Verse 40 adds more detail as to what a drawing by the Father involves, i.e. looking to the Son and believing on Him
6. And v. 40 further reinforces Jesus' promise by promising such people that they shall have eternal life.

Nor did Jesus say in John6:44-45 that all whom the Father draws come to Me.

Verse 37 most certainly says that! What part part of "all" can't you understand in this verse? There's no compelling reason to not take the verse at face value and that "all" is used in the distributive sense. And you accuse me of eisegesis?

 

[Rufus]

“After this latest tome of yours I'm still not clear on whether or not you agree with my premise, which by this time you have likely forgotten anyhow. Many words are truly meaningless (Eccl 5:7).”

just responding to what you said ….maybe we aren’t going to be able to discuss if you don’t like how I respond sorry about that but makes it pretty much impossible for me. You seem to just ignore it and complain it’s to long or whatever your insults there are o tended to communicate lol I sort of tune out of thier types of thkngs so I don’t really know

And ( long exaggerated sigh lol ) Yeah I agreed with part of what you said when I said yes I agree with this part and quoted it …..and then what I believe left off from what you had said and thats why I used words to reply after I said I didn’t agree with your premise lol and somehow you aren’t clear about if I did ?



but yeah there’s a lot of ways avoid that each other says ? Especially when scriptire is quoted that supports anyones idea ….

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like a good idea to consider that each person is held accountable for thier own sins not other peoples

“for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t have to answer for adams sin but for our own sins

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I believe that idea not that we’re all dead spiritually because Adam sinned . If that’s your concept of “original sin “ then I believe a lot differently like lol I explained to you in tbe last post you didn’t read or didn’t like or whatever it was

i believe Adam was held accountable for his sin and caused mankind to now have to walk and choose between good and evil , but we only die because we sin. He. Roughy sin and death into our lives and we then sin and die ourselves like he did

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( that’s what Adams transgression caused sin and death to come into the world )


and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( that’s why death passes onto a person because they sin like Adam did and death then came upon him as God warned )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But There’s a lot of words in tbe Bible but they aren’t meaningless , only when we wont listen to what it is they are communicating. And explain other things.

i don’t think I would agree with your theory of original sin but im still
NOt sure what you mean by it people have different theories when they say phrases like that . If people use those phrases here it’s always important to ask what it is they mean by the phrase because it’s seldom the same understanding between two people

P.s . Disclaimer : The reason I wrote these words back to you is an attempt to respond in a conversation. Regarding what you said to me priorly.

awe may not be able to discuss anything if you can’t accept the way I respond and that’s alright if that’s the case no worries or offense or anything

To simplify adams transgression caused us to be sinners having both good and evil in us and around us . now we have to overcome like he told cain the firstborn man Adam caused this

adam caused this situation for mankind he wasn’t created in this situation he caused it for us with his sin

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He caused this to happen

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We are meant to know what God tells us his judgements between good and evil and not try to make our own just trust his word and live . That’s what Jesus is calling people back to in the gospel hearing his word and having eternal life with him

If we came into this world as infants born alive unto God, through his indwelling Holy Spirit, who alone would be the only Good that dwells within us, then how could have Jesus said that NO ONE in this world is Good!? Jesus didn't qualify his statement in Mk 10:18! If your theory is correct and infants are born with spiritual life within, then how could Jesus made such a blanket, unqualified statement? He would in fact be blaspheming the Holy Spirit who would be the only Good such infants truly had! Jesus didn't say that "most people are not good". Or that "many people are not good". He said NO ONE which would include infants and small children who have no real knowledge of good and evil.

Moreover, your theory would fly in the face of Job 25:4-6, which is another unqualified declaration rhetorical questions. How in the world could have Job asked the question, "How can one born of a woman be pure"? This is rhetorical question demanding a negative reply. Yet, according to you, infants and small children are born pure!? Must be if they came into the world possessing spiritual life which is only possible by being indwelt with the Spirit of Life.

And king David certainly didn't think he came into this world as a holy, angelic, sanctified, living soul (Ps 51:5).

And finally, you overlook a key verse in Rom 5 that speaks to the typology of Adam. You overlook v. 15 which basically says that by one man's transgression, the many died! Also, v. 17 speaks to how death reigned through the sin of ONE man!

 

[rogerg]

Bravo! You finally got something right. But Jesus did say in a different place what you claim he never said. Again, read Jn 6:36-40! The phrase, "I will raise him them up on the last day" applies to four different subsets of passages within this large passsage.

You conveniently ignore the above passage, so let me quote for you: Perhaps one day, it'll stick in your mind:

John 6:36-40
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

Note carefully these FACTS:

1. ALL (not some, many or few) who the Father gives to the Son WILL come to the Son! (Unqualified statement).
2. All who come, Jesus will never drive away. (Makes sense since God drives away only his enemies!)
3. All who come will persevere because Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, keeps them. He loses NONE of ALL who were given.
4. Jesus reinforces the above point by promising to raise them up on the last day.
5. Verse 40 adds more detail as to what a drawing by the Father involves, i.e. looking to the Son and believing on Him
6. And v. 40 further reinforces Jesus' promise by promising such people that they shall have eternal life.




Verse 37 most certainly says that! What part part of "all" can't you understand in this verse? There's no compelling reason to not take the verse at face value and that "all" is used in the distributive sense. And you accuse me of eisegesis?

Just a suggestion, Rufus, but IMHO you might also consider adding v44 to that list, where Jesus states that no one can come to Him unless explicitly drawn to Him by the Father, and that those not drawn can never receive eternal life. This declaration eliminates all other supposed paths to Christ and simplifies and unifies the intent of the other associated verses.

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[studier]

Bravo! You finally got something right. But Jesus did say in a different place what you claim he never said. Again, read Jn 6:36-40! The phrase, "I will raise him them up on the last day" applies to four different subsets of passages within this large passsage.

You conveniently ignore the above passage, so let me quote for you: Perhaps one day, it'll stick in your mind:

John 6:36-40
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

Note carefully these FACTS:

1. ALL (not some, many or few) who the Father gives to the Son WILL come to the Son! (Unqualified statement).
2. All who come, Jesus will never drive away. (Makes sense since God drives away only his enemies!)
3. All who come will persevere because Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, keeps them. He loses NONE of ALL who were given.
4. Jesus reinforces the above point by promising to raise them up on the last day.
5. Verse 40 adds more detail as to what a drawing by the Father involves, i.e. looking to the Son and believing on Him
6. And v. 40 further reinforces Jesus' promise by promising such people that they shall have eternal life.

Fallacious argumentation aside for the moment, none of what you say above equates without dispute 6:37 to 6:44-45 in the way you say it does. I've laid some of it out for you, which should lead into constructive discussion to attempt interpreting Scripture properly. The rhetorical response is simply misdirection and as I said, fallacious argumentation, which a few of us see clearly in your methods.

Verse 37 most certainly says that! What part part of "all" can't you understand in this verse? There's no compelling reason to not take the verse at face value and that "all" is used in the distributive sense. And you accuse me of eisegesis?

6:37 does say "all". The very long debate remains over 6:44-45. As I said, it remains and, in all probability, won't be resolved here. Certainly not by your methods.