Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel, it is only because they had already become saved, but that response played no part in the obtaining of salvation.

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

 

[Rufus]

If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel,

I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.

This is the difference between me and hyper-Calvinists who seem to believe that the will of God's elect image-bearers played no part in their salvation. I, see God as the indispensable Primary Cause (Mover) in man's salvation, and man himself as the willing respondent by God's grace. God actually "changes our mind" about who we thought he was, who we thought we were, what we thought we needed to do to please Him, what we thought our eternal destination was, etc., etc. -- all of this and more by his irresistible grace! And once a true change has taken place within one's soul, that person will respond accordingly.

As far as the flip side of the coin goes, the very same principle applies to all who were appointed in eternity to remain as a lump of clay suitable only for ignoble use. The damned who were never destined for eternal life have actually chosen their own eternal fate! God's will for them and their own personal spiritual choices throughout their life are also 100% in sync! No one is ever condemned to hell who truly desired to be in heaven with their one and only True Creator! IOW, no one is ever sent to hell against their will! (And this fact alone demolishes another favorite FW straw man objection of Determinism.) All the condemned freely choose to rebel against God, break his laws, love the world and everything in it, etc., etc. Most importantly, everyone sees and recognizes that the world is badly broken -- except for themselves! People naturally refuse to see themselves as being every bit as much of the problem as their fellow man is who they are so quick to criticize and condemn. But when they condemn others, they unwittingly condemn themselves, as they do not and indeed cannot see themselves as being in the same lump of clay they so often condemn! Inordinate SELF love prohibits them! Therefore, God is not unjust by not graciously opening the eyes to their hearts and souls to see the gospel truth, since He owes his grace to no one. He's not unjust to leave them in their reprobate condition -- a condition of darkness which they love, by the way, because their deeds are evil!

I hope I've made my position clearer.

 

[Rufus]

What about Mary? Didnt jesus bear her flawed human nature as well being a child of Adam.

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Adam did not come into existence with a sinful nature -- yet, he still sinned.”

exactly the difference is when Adam was tempted he followed the temptation and then sinned and became a sinner . he didn’t become incapable of doing good but now they knew both good and evil and became conflicted between them .

jesus came as a man born of flesh and blood like we are and when he was tempted he did not sin he did not follow satans words but Gods words through life.

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we don’t die because Adam sinned , death came into the world because Adam broke the commandment war I g him about death . He died because he sinned . we die because like Adam we follow temptation and sin ourselves like he did.

Jesus became a son of man and subjected himself to flesh and blood and temptations that come with the flesh . Yet., he never sinned even being born under the law of Moses which defines sin , he never sinned. even when obedience took him to the suffering of the cross. He never sinned. But human nature he took upon himself so we could be redeemed to his image and live

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

he became a real man flesh and blood and faced all the same plight we do same temptations of his flesh but he never sinned he was without sin

He won a great victory it wasn’t just handed to him he suffered and bled and died for it he knows everything we face and all the struggle of our flesh against our spirit

became flesh and overcame it by the spirit thisnis what makes Jesus the man different from Adam Adam didn’t overcome temptation he followed it and let sin rule him . Jesus when tempted remained with Gods word and Satan never broke him

So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned? Or asked differently: Did the Last Adam also have the same capacity or capability to sin as the First Adam did?

 

[rogerg]

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Sorry Magenta, I'm not sure I am entirely following your point (my fault) but if you're referring to the part of my comment
regarding law, the law that I was referring to was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, no other law.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Rufus]

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Exactly right, sister! And this is what makes man morally culpable at the end of the day. Men actually do possess the knowledge of Good and Evil! But mankind naturally does not want to biblically deal with this knowledge because it applies to themselves and not to just others.

 

[rogerg]

I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.

Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
nor feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.

 

[Rufus]

Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
or feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.

Absolutely! God is 100% in control of his universe and everything in it. As stated in my previous post, God is the Primary Mover (Cause) of our salvation. And His perfect will is never dependent upon any of his fallen creatures' will. In fact, all the changes you mention above are critically necessary to our salvation. God doesn't just renew man's corrupt will, He gives all his elect a heart transplant, meaning he has changed all our faculties that drive the will!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned? Or asked differently: Did the Last Adam also have the same capacity or capability to sin as the First Adam did?

you never answered , what about Jesus being made of a woman part ? Didn’t Jesus carry our flash as well ?

“So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned?”

To understand the problem we just look back

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is Jesus was subjected to the flesh and the flesh is what’s able to be tempted. It was necessary because there was no worthy man found so he became a man and proved himself worthy as a man.

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15, 17-18‬ ‭

It’s undeniable Jesus was tempted and it goes further sayong he was tempted on every way we are as humans tbrough our flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That one verse sort of answers your question did Jesus feel the feeling infirmity we do when tempted ? And was he actually tempted like we are ? Or was he never even tempted but just coasted tbrough like a computer program not feeling what it’s like to be tempted through the flesh ?

I submit that the bible teaches us that Jesus became like we are in his birth subject to satans temptations through the flesh and he never gave in to satans Will he always obeyed Gods Will. It was t that Jesus wasn’t tempted when he was tempted he o owe what it’s like for us when we are tempted we often fail like Adam sometimes we don’t but often we do

Jesus faced the same challenge all
Humans do , our flesh. And our enemy the devil. The tempter and accuser

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:1-4, 7, 10‬ ‭

My opinion is that Jesus was infact tempted like we are , the difference being he never followed temptation but always followed God

“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see Jesus under massive pressure sometimes and his humanity struggling in faith just barely but he never breaks Satan never stood a chance to break him but Jesus the man , bore alot on his shoulders you can see the weight sometimes on his flesh

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.( he was needing strength from the Father in his earthly trial and received it )

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, and said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-46‬ ‭

the point is jesus is God , we know this and believe but he became fully a man in order to be a high priest who could intercede for our sins and save us it had to be aman to intercede for man with god. There wasn’t one so he became the son of man our intercessor and savior our high priest

jesus felt temptations he overcame them he had emotions and stresses like we do he lives a life like we all do faced the same things that pull at us and try to corrupt us but he overcame when we couldn’t to make a way

My thought it he was either tempted like we are as it says or he was never tempted . I believe it teaches us he was in scripture that was part of his mission on earth to overcome temptation and the feelings of the flesh and be without sin unto his suffering and death on the cross




Did you notice Jesus often refers to himself as “ the son of man “ ? Adam wasnt “the son of man “ he eas created by God without procreation or being “born a son of man “ Adam is created mankind and then they had sins

 

[Rufus]

you never answered , what about Jesus being made of a woman part ? Didn’t Jesus carry our flash as well ?

“So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned?”

To understand the problem we just look back

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is Jesus was subjected to the flesh and the flesh is what’s able to be tempted. It was necessary because there was no worthy man found so he became a man and proved himself worthy as a man.

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15, 17-18‬ ‭

It’s undeniable Jesus was tempted and it goes further sayong he was tempted on every way we are as humans tbrough our flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That one verse sort of answers your question did Jesus feel the feeling infirmity we do when tempted ? And was he actually tempted like we are ? Or was he never even tempted but just coasted tbrough like a computer program not feeling what it’s like to be tempted through the flesh ?

I submit that the bible teaches us that Jesus became like we are in his birth subject to satans temptations through the flesh and he never gave in to satans Will he always obeyed Gods Will. It was t that Jesus wasn’t tempted when he was tempted he o owe what it’s like for us when we are tempted we often fail like Adam sometimes we don’t but often we do

Jesus faced the same challenge all
Humans do , our flesh. And our enemy the devil. The tempter and accuser

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:1-4, 7, 10‬ ‭

My opinion is that Jesus was infact tempted like we are , the difference being he never followed temptation but always followed God

“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see Jesus under massive pressure sometimes and his humanity struggling in faith just barely but he never breaks Satan never stood a chance to break him but Jesus the man , bore alot on his shoulders you can see the weight sometimes on his flesh

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.( he was needing strength from the Father in his earthly trial and received it )

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, and said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-46‬ ‭

the point is jesus is God , we know this and believe but he became fully a man in order to be a high priest who could intercede for our sins and save us it had to be aman to intercede for man with god. There wasn’t one so he became the son of man our intercessor and savior our high priest

jesus felt temptations he overcame them he had emotions and stresses like we do he lives a life like we all do faced the same things that pull at us and try to corrupt us but he overcame when we couldn’t to make a way

My thought it he was either tempted like we are as it says or he was never tempted . I believe it teaches us he was in scripture that was part of his mission on earth to overcome temptation and the feelings of the flesh and be without sin unto his suffering and death on the cross




Did you notice Jesus often refers to himself as “ the son of man “ ? Adam wasnt “the son of man “ he eas created by God without procreation or being “born a son of man “ Adam is created mankind and then they had sins

So, it appears that you're pretty much on the same page as my new-found pastor is. He believes that Jesus in his divine nature could not have sinned, but in his human nature he could have. Prior to hearing this and the pastor's short explanation, I was pretty firmly in the Impeccability of Christ camp. But now...this pastor has got me thinking. Could Jesus have been fully human if, unlike Adam, he didn't have the capacity to sin in his human nature?

The Virgin Birth is a very important doctrine. For the longest time I believed it was necessary so that Christ would escape the sin nature; for I postulated that the inherited sin nature is likely passed on to all Adam's progeny through the male's sperm; hence, the need for the virgin birth. But I no longer think mankind's sin nature is really the issue regarding the nature of Christ's two natures. Adam sinned apart from having any sin nature! In fact, I also believe he sinned while being alive unto God in the Holy Spirit, for otherwise how could Adam have died spiritually on the day he disobeyed? Death always logically presupposes antecedent life! Only the living can die! So, it seem now the only true significance to the virgin birth was to sidestep the imputation of Adam's sin to Christ.

 

[Musicmaster]

The title of this thread is funny...anyone thinking that they can understand the criteria and outcome of God's election...

That it was ever made into the silly notion that God predetermined who will go to Hell and who to Heaven...come on!

MM

 

[BillyBob]

The problem I've encountered with the concept of election are people out there who think they have a full understanding of it, which they don't, and so assume that also encompasses election to Hell independent of any choice on the part of individuals. That's why I specifically targeted TULIP of hyper-Calvinism. Like most all other -isms, which misses the mark of clear statements to the contrary of the Bible when learning about their core values and teachings.

I do not not pretend to understand why some are chosen and others are not! However, the choice is not due to anything good in us, because man's thoughts and actions are evil continually........
But God has set aside some to be His people, and this is not due to their feeble abilities what-so-ever. It is clear that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy. He draws them and places them in the care of His Son and Spirit.
Those that He does not draw, remain in sin of their own accord. Without His help we are doomed to hell by our own evil thoughts and actions!
This is a certainly a mystery beyond my limited understanding!

 

[Musicmaster]

I do not not pretend to understand why some are chosen and others are not! However, the choice is not due to anything good in us, because man's thoughts and actions are evil continually........
But God has set aside some to be His people, and this is not due to their feeble abilities what-so-ever. It is clear that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy. He draws them and places them in the care of His Son and Spirit.
Those that He does not draw, remain in sin of their own accord. Without His help we are doomed to hell by our own evil thoughts and actions!
This is a certainly a mystery beyond my limited understanding!

The beauty of it all is that the Lord draws ALL men to Him, not just the elect. That's what renders the concept of the elect beyond our ability to look into the full depths of God's workings. Either this says what it means, or one allegorizes into saying whatever they want, and boy have I seen people out there do just that:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

He was indeed lifted up from the earth on that cross, and so He draws ALL men to Him just as this verse clearly states. Please be very careful of those many deceivers out there who allegorize scripture into subjective interpretations.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

No kidding, Sherlock! The issue is not opening the account, the issue is the restriction/requirement that is placed on accounts when account holders want to make any checking account transactions. And why would anyone open a checking account to leave it dormant or inactive if they haven't died? In fact, in the bank I alluded to, they also had a policy that if any account remains inactive for 90 days, the debit card connected to the account would be rendered inoperable. The only way anyone could access a dormant account is to go through a reactivation process for their card.

And you should spend far more time submitting to the authority of scripture, for it is God's Holy Word that informs your faith, not human reasoning. Finite, fallible, frail, flawed, fallen human reasoning is not the final authority for determining Truth. When Jesus said, "no one can come to be me unless...", that does not mean that some can indeed do that very thing in spite of what the Lord taught. "No one" doesn't equate to some or many. No one = 0 people. Your inane interpretation of John 6 has Jesus speaking out of both sides of his mouth!

I have not denied that "no one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him" means that everyone who comes to Jesus must have been drawn by the Father. What I have said is that having to have the Father draw you in order to come to Jesus does not mean that all who are drawn to Jesus will believe in Jesus. John 6 includes many people who were drawn to Jesus by the Father who refused to believe in Him.

And you should spend far more time submitting to the authority of scripture, for it is God's Holy Word that informs your faith, not human reasoning. Finite, fallible, frail, flawed, fallen human reasoning is not the final authority for determining Truth.

 

[brightfame52]

@PaulThomson

What I have said is that having to have the Father draw you in order to come to Jesus does not mean that all who are drawn to Jesus will believe in Jesus.

Thats exactly what it does mean, the drawing is also the giving of the gift of faith, persuasion, thats what coming to Christ is, believing on Him, the drawing accomplished that.

 

[Rufus]

The title of this thread is funny...anyone thinking that they can understand the criteria and outcome of God's election...

That it was ever made into the silly notion that God predetermined who will go to Hell and who to Heaven...come on!

MM

Unconditional Election is arguably the most comforting doctrine in salvation. And this is why God made it so understandable!

Why is it wrong for God to rescue innumerable, helpless sinners over the millennia from going to hell and spending eternity with Him? Or why is it wrong to leave most sinners to die in the sins in which they love so much?

 

[Musicmaster]

@PaulThomson



Thats exactly what it does mean, the drawing is also the giving of the gift of faith, persuasion, thats what coming to Christ is, believing on Him, the drawing accomplished that.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, ALL are drawn to the Lord, so therefore ALL have the ability to come unto the Lord for His salvation.

Calvinistic dogmas, and especially TULIP, denies, therefore, that Jesus was raised up on the cross to die, resurrected unto life to claim that not all are drawn by the Father. That clearly is contrary to what Jesus stated! Are you saying that Jesus is a liar? Am I understanding you correctly in all this?

MM

 

[Rufus]

I have not denied that "no one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him" means that everyone who comes to Jesus must have been drawn by the Father. What I have said is that having to have the Father draw you in order to come to Jesus does not mean that all who are drawn to Jesus will believe in Jesus. John 6 includes many people who were drawn to Jesus by the Father who refused to believe in Him.

And you should spend far more time submitting to the authority of scripture, for it is God's Holy Word that informs your faith, not human reasoning. Finite, fallible, frail, flawed, fallen human reasoning is not the final authority for determining Truth.

Two things seriously wrong with what I just highlighted above: First, you're assuming that the "disciples" who followed Jesus to the other side of Galilee were true believers. That's nonsense! Jesus told those "disciples" that they didn't believe in Him (Jn 6:36, 64). They chased after Him for all the wrong motives. Plus, Jesus is actually warning them that NO ONE can come after him and follow him unless God's hand is in it! Jesus is contrasting the fake disciples who chased after him with what genuine disciples look like who are drawn by God to Christ and given to him. And this last thought brings me again to the all-important context and the logical flow to Jesus' teaching.

Four times in this large passage Jesus stated "and I will raise him up on the last day"! The first time he says that "ALL" the Father gives to the Son will come to Jesus (Jn 6:35-39). He didn't say, many or some or a few, or possibly or maybe. All of Jesus' statements are unqualified!

The second time Jesus explains what he meant in the previous passage by explaining to his audience that coming to Him involves faith and that it is the Father's [decretive] will that Jesus would raise up such people on the last day (Jn 6:40). Not even a remote hint that the Father's giving the elect to the Son and drawing is a hit and miss proposition, which is what you want us to believe. You would have us believe that finite, fallible, fallen sinners can actually thwart God's will and purposes (Job 42:2)! You want us to believe, that contrary to what Jesus taught, not all things are actually possible with God (Mat 19:26; Mk 10:27). You would have us believe that the King of kings and Lord of lords is not really running the universe he created and owns.

The third time Jesus explains for someone to be given to the Son by the Father entails the process of the Father drawing them to his Son (6:44).

The fourth time Jesus expands some more by telling the fake disciples what faith looks like through the typology of the mana in the wilderness of which the substance is Jesus the antitype who is the True Bread of Life (Jn 6:54).

Finally, Jesus equates the Father's drawing of the elect to the Son with God's enabling power (Jn 6:65), apart from which NO ONE is able to come to the Son in faith! In each every case in the four sets of passages, Jesus makes it clear that all those whom the Father gives to him and draws to him, that the Lord will in fact "raise [them] up on the last day" -- clearly alluding to the resurrection of the righteous at the Parousia.

There's nothing in this Bread of Life Discourse that is difficult to understand. You just don't want to take Jesus' words at face value because it runs counter to your man-centered, man-glorifying, man-exalting, self-aggrandizing theology.

 

[BillyBob]

The problem I've encountered with the concept of election are people out there who think they have a full understanding of it, which they don't, and so assume that also encompasses election to Hell independent of any choice on the part of individuals. That's why I specifically targeted TULIP of hyper-Calvinism. Like most all other -isms, which misses the mark of clear statements to the contrary of the Bible when learning about their core values and teachings.

As I stated earlier, I do not pretend to fully understand why God chooses to save some and not others, since we each deserve His wrath! But, it is clear that this is the truth. He tells us that He will have mercy on some and not others. Do we have the right to complain and proclaim this to be unfair!

As to His electing some to hell, I don't see that as being necessary since fallen man does not love God and has a natural desire to do things his own way. If God withholds His mercy, then we can choose no other direction and remain without excuse!

God does not owe this mercy to anyone, but provides it to some by grace alone.

 

[Rufus]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all MEN unto me.

So, ALL are drawn to the Lord, so therefore ALL have the ability to come unto the Lord for His salvation.

Calvinistic dogmas, and especially TULIP, denies, therefore, that Jesus was raised up on the cross to die, resurrected unto life to claim that not all are drawn by the Father. That clearly is contrary to what Jesus stated! Are you saying that Jesus is a liar? Am I understanding you correctly in all this?

MM

(emphasis mine)

You don't pay attention too swell, do you? I explained two days ago in my 8947 that the term "men" was added to the verse by the translatiors. There is no Gr. term for "men" in the manuscipts for Jn 12:32! The text literally reads:

John 12:32
32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
Darby

And,

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] to Myself."
NASB

The NASB italicizes "men" to show that it was added to the English text by the translators.

The AMP really catches the true sense of the passage:

John 12:32
32 And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw and attract all men [Gentiles as well as Jews] to Myself.
AMP

As also explained in my post, "all" can be used in an indvidual (distributive) sense or collectively (in a limited sense), which the AMP correctly captures. Since "men" is not in any of the extant manuscripts, then "all" could just as well be referring to peoples or nations, which would very much be in accord with the Abrhamic Covenant promise, since God never promised Abraham that each and every person in the world would be blessed through Abraham's seed (i.e. Christ). And not only this, but the passage would harmonize quite nicely with other pertinent Johanine texts, e.g. Rev 5:9; 7:9.

Avail yourself of an interlinear to verify that what I just wrote about Jn 12:32 is true! This passage cannot legitimately and honestly be used to teach that the Son draws each and every person in the world to himself. That's what you want it to say, but it doesn't. Furthermore, if it did it would contradict other explicit passages that teach that God obviously doesn't do that; for it was never God's intention to save each and every person in the world.

 

[PaulThomson]

Two things seriously wrong with what I just highlighted above: First, you're assuming that the "disciples" who followed Jesus to the other side of Galilee were true believers. That's nonsense! Jesus told those "disciples" that they didn't believe in Him (Jn 6:36, 64). They chased after Him for all the wrong motives. Plus, Jesus is actually warning them that NO ONE can come after him and follow him unless God's hand is in it! Jesus is contrasting the fake disciples who chased after him with what genuine disciples look like who are drawn by God to Christ and given to him. And this last thought brings me again to the all-important context and the logical flow to Jesus' teaching.

I have not assumed that the "disciples" who followed Jesus to the other side of Galilee were true believers. I specifically said that they were not, even though they came all the way around the lake to Jesus drawn by the Father. You re equating "coming to Jesus" with believing in Him. John 6 does not equate them at all.

I don't expect someone, so prone as you to falling into logical fallacies, has much hope of understanding "the logical flow of Jesus' teaching."

Four times in this large passage Jesus stated "and I will raise him up on the last day"! The first time he says that "ALL" the Father gives to the Son will come to Jesus (Jn 6:35-39). He didn't say, many or some or a few, or possibly or maybe. All of Jesus' statements are unqualified!

Jhn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The Greek word "all" there is pan. It is neuter singular meaning "everything" not "everyone". Every circumstance the Father gave Jesus to deal with was inevitable, as far as Jesus was concerned, and Jesus' responsibility was to deal faithfully with every circumstance, not to find ways to avoid them.

The second time Jesus explains what he meant in the previous passage by explaining to his audience that coming to Him involves faith and that it is the Father's [decretive] will that Jesus would raise up such people on the last day (Jn 6:40). Not even a remote hint that the Father's giving the elect to the Son and drawing is a hit and miss proposition, which is what you want us to believe. You would have us believe that finite, fallible, fallen sinners can actually thwart God's will and purposes (Job 42:2)! You want us to believe, that contrary to what Jesus taught, not all things are actually possible with God (Mat 19:26; Mk 10:27). You would have us believe that the King of kings and Lord of lords is not really running the universe he created and owns.

Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This says that God's will is that everyone who both sees and believes on the Son should have aeonous life. You rightly say that seeing the Son is not enough, but faith is required. You fail to register that many who were looking at Jesus in John 6 had come to Him, but were not yet believing in Him. The evidence of John 6 is clearly that one can come to Jesus and see Him without believing in Him and so without receiving aeonous life. By imposing your theological presuppositions onto the text, you assume something the text does not say: that God guarantees that all who come to Jesus will believe in Him.

The third time Jesus explains for someone to be given to the Son by the Father entails the process of the Father drawing them to his Son (6:44).

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 does not mention the Father giving anyone to the Son. It speaks of the Father drawing people to the Son. We know that all who are in the graves will hear the voice of Jesus on the last day and rise: some to judgment and contempt , and some to glory and honour. IMHO the reason Jesus warns that He will raise ALL whom the Father drew to Jesus, is to warn those who come to Him that he will hold them accountable for what they do with Him, and He will determine in which of the two resurrections each one will be raised.

The fourth time Jesus expands some more by telling the fake disciples what faith looks like through the typology of the mana in the wilderness of which the substance is Jesus the antitype who is the True Bread of Life (Jn 6:54).

Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus does say He will raise up those who receive and digest and incorporate His Word and Spirit. However, this does not mean that only those people will be raised at the last day. To assume this text is saying that only those who belive will be raised is for you to fall yet again into the negative inference fallacy.

Finally, Jesus equates the Father's drawing of the elect to the Son with God's enabling power (Jn 6:65), apart from which NO ONE is able to come to the Son in faith! In each every case in the four sets of passages, Jesus makes it clear that all those whom the Father gives to him and draws to him, that the Lord will in fact "raise [them] up on the last day" -- clearly alluding to the resurrection of the righteous at the Parousia.

There's nothing in this Bread of Life Discourse that is difficult to understand. You just don't want to take Jesus' words at face value because it runs counter to your man-centered, man-glorifying, man-exalting, self-aggrandizing theology.

Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

There is no mention of the elect anywhere in John 6 until Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

And there, one of the elect is a devil, but nevertheless chosen by Jesus for service as an apostle, in which Judas proved unfaithful, despite having been drawn to Jesus and coming to Jesus and spending 3 years with Jesus. Again, someone drawn to Jesus by the Father, and who came to Jesus, but who forfeited the aeonous life that required faith in Jesus. Judas completely contradicts your eisegesis of the text of John 6.

You say, "In each every case in the four sets of passages, Jesus makes it clear that all those whom the Father gives to him and draws to him, that the Lord will in fact "raise [them] up on the last day" -- clearly alluding to the resurrection of the righteous at the Parousia."

But many in John 6 were drawn and came but did not believe, and so will not be included in the resurrection of the righteous. Your claims, eisegeting your preferred theology into John 6, simply contradict what the text of John 6 says.