God gave the law about Circumcision.

[Dino246]

Well, they believe 613 laws are written on their heart...

But they sidestep when you make clear that they don't follow them.

 

[Gideon300]

I’m talking about Jesus or does Paul take precedence - and how can Gal undermine Revelations the last book?

There is nothing wrong with Paul, Jesus or Revelations. The problem is with misinterpreting God's word. If you want to keep the law of circumcision, you need to keep every other law as well. You can't. There is no temple or tabernacle and no ark of the covenant.

There is a reason that God permitted Rome to destroy the Jewish temple. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant law completely. He did this as the "Last Adam." Now that OT law has been replaced with the New Covenant. I suggest that you focus on that and not on the obsolete law given through Moses. Grace and Truth came through Lord Jesus. Or do you reject the words of John also?

 

[Gideon300]

That doesn’t interact with what I said and is a moot point because it is the same thing. The same God who gave His law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the Law of Christ is not other than or contrary to anything that Christ taught.

Obviously you reject the teachings of Paul and the writer to the Hebrews. You also ignore the ruling of Peter with respect to Gentiles and the Law. So what do you believe? That you are saved by law keeping? Good luck with that. You can't. Animal sacrifices have been abolished - along with the rest of the Law of Moses.

It amazes me that Christians (if you are one) can get so mixed up on an issue so basic. The early church had an excuse. The gentiles had no history of the Law of Moses, so when the Judaisers came, the Gentile believers were confused. We have the Bible in all its fullness. All these disputes were settled in the first few years of the church. But some have to argue still.

If you are trusting in the Law to save you, then you are going to hell. I don't want to be offensive, but you need to know the truth for your own sake. If you can keep the law to the standard that God requires, you are unique apart from One other. His name is Jesus. I have it on good authority that you are not Him. You have not kept the Law of Moses to perfection either.

Read Acts 15 for the truth about Gentiles and the Law of Moses.

 

[Gideon300]

Well, they believe 613 laws are written on their heart...

That would be funny if it was not so pathetic. How can the Law be obeyed when there is no animal sacrifice? There is no priesthood, no Levites, no temple, no physical ark of the covenant, no physical mercy seat........ and so on and so forth.

 

[Needevidence]

Clearly following the laws of the state in Israel.

Any Jew in Israel in the first century could be excommunicated or executed for transgression
of the law. The law of Moses was federal law in Israel.

No other country in the world was under the federal law of Moses in the first century.

Certainly not the Romans.

I’m not very clear what you are trying to say, but the law of Moses was God’s law - there was no Israel or Jewish law.

 

[Needevidence]

You ignore scripture that has been presented which clearly and fully denies your teaching and that of the op at your own peril. Who is your teacher?

Perhaps in your country food is sacrificed to idols, but you should understand the culture of this forum in which you have chosen to participate. All sins can be forgiven, save one. I would consider that one perhaps, I mean considering how you seem to think the Bible is so badly misconstrued by most.

Not sure about that.

my teacher -

Matt 23:10 - And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. Whos yours?

Going back to the point I initially raised commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols - do you not accept the below is Jesus saying its a sin & its disliked?

Revelation 2:14 - 14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:6 - But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:20 - Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

 

[Needevidence]

It's eternal because God said it was eternal. And then Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away." Whether you think it was near to disappearing doesn't mean that it has disappeared.

And to your 2nd point, Jesus' sacrfice and our faith in His gracious salvation is the sign of our covenant with Him today. A circumcision today isn't necessary, but it isn't wrong in and of itself. Most importantly, if we refuse to accept that salvation through faith, then we truly will be cut off.

Adding to what ‘ChristRoseFromTheDead’ stated

There is no such thing as forever earthly and there is no Hebrew word that implies this – this is misconstrued and certain people push a narrative for their own politically benefit.

1) Strong's Concordance 5769

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity

le’olam - denotes a very long period of time, but nonetheless has an end point.
ad olam – forever (possibly)
olam - long duration, antiquity, futurity


2) Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

[if forever, everlasting - why a 'new convent' not like those with your ancestors?]

3) conflict with passages, so clearly this cannot (at least) always imply forever:

Jeremiah 17:4 - And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger which shall burn forever (‘aḏ- for) & (‘ō-w-lām – ever).”

Micah 7:18 - Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever (לָעַד֙ - lā-‘aḏ), Because He delights in mercy.

[so does God remain angry forever or not?]

4) a conflict after one passage

Isaiah 32: 14 For the palace will be forsaken, the busy city abandoned. The hill and the watchtower will become caves forever (‘ō-w-lām)—the delight of wild donkeys and a pasture for flocks—

15 until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high. Then the desert will be an orchard, and the orchard will seem like a forest.

[so is it forever or until?]

I hope this assist in some way in explaining the issue we have.

 

[Needevidence]

There is nothing wrong with Paul, Jesus or Revelations. The problem is with misinterpreting God's word. If you want to keep the law of circumcision, you need to keep every other law as well. You can't. There is no temple or tabernacle and no ark of the covenant.

There is a reason that God permitted Rome to destroy the Jewish temple. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant law completely. He did this as the "Last Adam." Now that OT law has been replaced with the New Covenant. I suggest that you focus on that and not on the obsolete law given through Moses. Grace and Truth came through Lord Jesus. Or do you reject the words of John also?

Noted - but commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols - do you not accept the below is Jesus saying its a sin & its disliked (noting its the last book)?

Revelation 2:14 - 14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:6 - But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:20 - Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

 

[Godsgood]

GENESIS 17:10-13

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us remember what The Lord Jesus Taught to Paul.
ROMANS 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

When Our Lord Jesus Christ arrived, the Jews are obeying The Law of God in Letter or in Literal meaning.

For Example: Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.
That is why the Jews brought Mary Magdalene to Jesus to punish her.
JOHN 8:3-5
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”

Despite The Jews are not committing literal adultery but to Jesus they are Adulterer because they don't believe in Romans 7:14.
MATTHEW 16:4
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Another Law of God is: Thou Shalt Not Steal.
The Jews were obeying this Law in Letter or Literal meaning, that is why They Crucified the two Thieves with Jesus as a punishment on what they did.
But Jesus were still accusing The Jews as Thieves and Robbers because they don't believe in Romans 7:14.
JOHN 10:1
10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
JOHN 10:9
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Therefore in Genesis 17:10-13 God The Father is referring to SPIRITUAL CIRCUMCISION and not to Literal Circumcision.
Whoever Circumcised in Letter or in Literal meaning even on the 8th day from he was born. But don't believe in Romans 7:14 is a Uncircumcised.

This verse is for Spiritual Circumcision.
GENESIS 17:10-13
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Let us wait for Our Lord Jesus to Reveal the meaning of Spiritual Circumcision in Geneses17:10-13 as God The Father Commanded before we tackle Galatians 5:2.

 

[Soyeong]

What was the purpose for God to send His Son to die in our place if the law can attain righteousness for us? You might be aware that scripture teaches that if you break just one part of the law, you have broken ALL of it. If you were not aware, you are now. Look up that scripture, it does exist, and think of what it states.

Jesus fulfilled all of the law; no animal sacrifice ever actually attained forgiveness.

You state you have been saved from birth. That is not found in Scripture. I see you do not attend church, but I am curious as to what belief you actually hold?

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so obeying God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation, and the same is true for righteousness. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law. In regard to James 2:1-11, if we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do.

 

[Dino246]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us remember what The Lord Jesus Taught to Paul.
ROMANS 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

When Our Lord Jesus Christ arrived, the Jews are obeying The Law of God in Letter or in Literal meaning.

For Example: Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.
That is why the Jews brought Mary Magdalene to Jesus to punish her.
JOHN 8:3-5
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”

Despite The Jews are not committing literal adultery but to Jesus they are Adulterer because they don't believe in Romans 7:14.
MATTHEW 16:4
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Another Law of God is: Thou Shalt Not Steal.
The Jews were obeying this Law in Letter or Literal meaning, that is why They Crucified the two Thieves with Jesus as a punishment on what they did.
But Jesus were still accusing The Jews as Thieves and Robbers because they don't believe in Romans 7:14.
JOHN 10:1
10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
JOHN 10:9
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Therefore in Genesis 17:10-13 God The Father is referring to SPIRITUAL CIRCUMCISION and not to Literal Circumcision.
Whoever Circumcised in Letter or in Literal meaning even on the 8th day from he was born. But don't believe in Romans 7:14 is a Uncircumcised.

This verse is for Spiritual Circumcision.
GENESIS 17:10-13
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Let us wait for Our Lord Jesus to Reveal the meaning of Spiritual Circumcision in Geneses17:10-13 as God The Father Commanded before we tackle Galatians 5:2.

You insist on waiting until “Jesus” reveals “the meaning” while stating that it is something completely different than what the plain text clearly states. You have no credibility and are either a false teacher, a fool, or both. I certainly hope nobody is looking to you for help in understanding the Bible.

 

[Gideon300]

Noted - but commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols - do you not accept the below is Jesus saying its a sin & its disliked (noting its the last book)?

Revelation 2:14 - 14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:6 - But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:20 - Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

I don't know what you are trying to get at. I'm losing interest in this discussion because it goes nowhere.

 

[Gideon300]

I’m not very clear what you are trying to say, but the law of Moses was God’s law - there was no Israel or Jewish law.

"Hear o Israel". God did not speak to the Egyptians, Amorites, Canaanites or any other ite.

 

[Needevidence]

I don't know what you are trying to get at. I'm losing interest in this discussion because it goes nowhere.

im asking a simple and straight forward Q due to your response - is commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols a sin or not?

Not sure how simpler i can make it

 

[Needevidence]

"Hear o Israel". God did not speak to the Egyptians, Amorites, Canaanites or any other ite.

No he spoke to prophets about his Law - where is the evidence that Moses was a Jew a descendent of Abraham again where does it say he was a Jew?

 

[Gideon300]

No he spoke to prophets about his Law - where is the evidence that Moses was a Jew a descendent of Abraham again where does it say he was a Jew?

The Bible says so. Moses was a descendant of Levi, who was a descendant of Jacob. It is possible to infer that Moses himself was a prophet. Moses foretold a prophet like himself, who is Jesus. Deuteronomy 18:15. Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount of transfiguration. The Law came through Moses. Your Bible knowledge is pathetic. You should study it for yourself.

 

[GWH]

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so obeying God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation, and the same is true for righteousness. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law. In regard to James 2:1-11, if we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do.

You illustrate the fallacy of proof texting by not even noting the beginning of that passage, indicating that you may belong to the circumcision group Paul warns Christians against in TIT 1:10-11, "There are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households (churches) by teaching things they ought not to teach."

 

[Soyeong]

You illustrate the fallacy of proof texting by not even noting the beginning of that passage, indicating that you may belong to the circumcision group Paul warns Christians against in TIT 1:10-11, "There are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households (churches) by teaching things they ought not to teach."

That does not interact with what I said. It is not a fallacy to thoroughly support what I say with the Bible. I have not ignored that passage. The position of rebellious people who are ruining whole households is not that we should repent and obey what God has commanded in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom, but just the opposite. Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom based on God’s law (Acts 14:20-21, 20:24-25, 28:23), so you are incorrect to try to turn Titus 1:10-11 against the Gospel. The position of the circumcision group is stated in Acts 15:1, which is a position that I am opposed to, so it is incorrect for you to lump me with them.

 

[Aaron56]

Guys, to change the Levitical Law-keepers' minds all you have to do is write a cogent post that highlights the clear meaning of scripture.

Also: please bid on a bridge I'm selling in Queens NY: Link

 

[GWH]

That does not interact with what I said. It is not a fallacy to thoroughly support what I say with the Bible. I have not ignored that passage. The position of rebellious people who are ruining whole households is not that we should repent and obey what God has commanded in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom, but just the opposite. Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom based on God’s law (Acts 14:20-21, 20:24-25, 28:23), so you are incorrect to try to turn Titus 1:10-11 against the Gospel. The position of the circumcision group is stated in Acts 15:1, which is a position that I am opposed to, so it is incorrect for you to lump me with them.

Well, I saw you ignoring TIT 1:10-11, but I am glad you did not intend to do so and that you disavow being one of those who corrupts the Gospel of salvation via faith by saying works such as physical circumcision or observing the Sabbath are required.

Because I thought I saw you "quacking like a duck", may I get further clarification by asking whether you are saying p.s & o.S are part of the didache or Paul's moral teachings that Christians ought to do?