Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[SonJudgment]

The M means "moral", referring to being enabled by God either to believe the Gospel/cooperate with His POS and be saved or to disbelieve/ignore and be justly damned, because God did not force that choice or prevent souls from choosing saving faith.

Yes, God could choose to hate humanity and be more evil than the devil, but He eternally chooses to be holy/righteous/omniloving and thus worthy of our love and praise.

I see then what the M means and the point you're trying to make. It begs the question though, why would anyone ever choose to be damned out of their own freewill? To the other side of that coin, if God enables people to believe, then how have they really chosen of their own freewill to be saved if they have to be influenced? So it is the answer to both questions is there is not really freewill, there is only one will, the will of God, and the will of God is the unalterable destiny.

On the second part, no, God can never be evil because evil is opposition to God. God can and does destroy many people throughout history, and he is never evil for it because everything belongs to him, he can do whatever he wants with his creation. Rather those creations that strive against God from the Devil to all the people that reject God are the evil ones, and even in their opposition they cannot change the will of God, they can only prove the will of God and vindicate God.

Consider Pharaoh and Egypt, God lifted up Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh, and God also destroyed Egypt. Though Pharaoh opposed God's will he only really played right into God's will and God is sanctified in both the famous plagues which he poured out to destroy Egypt and also in the deliverance of Israel. There was never a chance where Egypt would not be destroyed, and there was never a chance where Israel would not be saved, for the will of God always prevails.

 

[GWH]

I see then what the M means and the point you're trying to make. It begs the question though, why would anyone ever choose to be damned out of their own freewill? To the other side of that coin, if God enables people to believe, then how have they really chosen of their own freewill to be saved if they have to be influenced? So it is the answer to both questions is there is not really freewill, there is only one will, the will of God, and the will of God is the unalterable destiny.

On the second part, no, God can never be evil because evil is opposition to God. God can and does destroy many people throughout history, and he is never evil for it because everything belongs to him, he can do whatever he wants with his creation. Rather those creations that strive against God from the Devil to all the people that reject God are the evil ones, and even in their opposition they cannot change the will of God, they can only prove the will of God and vindicate God.

Consider Pharaoh and Egypt, God lifted up Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh, and God also destroyed Egypt. Though Pharaoh opposed God's will he only really played right into God's will and God is sanctified in both the famous plagues which he poured out to destroy Egypt and also in the deliverance of Israel. There was never a chance where Egypt would not be destroyed, and there was never a chance where Israel would not be saved, for the will of God always prevails.

"why would anyone ever choose to be damned out of their own freewill?" The answer is illustrated by A&E: because they exercised their MFW to doubt GW rather than to ask Him about the devil's lie. Room for doubt is due to distanciation or delayed damnation, the fact that the painful effect of sin does not occur immediately. Even so, both Jesus and Paul expressed consternation regarding people's foolish obstinacy by quoting IS 6:9-10.

"if God enables people to believe, then how have they really chosen of their own freewill to be saved if they have to be influenced?" Because such enabling of freewill permits folks to imitate A&E. So, the will of God initiates, and the will of souls cooperates--or not.

"God can never be evil because evil is opposition to God". If God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional creatures, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness. Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).

The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26). God’s decision to be all-loving is free because God could have chosen or determined to anoint Satan to embody evil logic/lies rather than Jesus to manifest love and truth (JN 1:14, PHP 2:9-11), and this earthly existence would be hell (RV 19:11-13, 20:7-10 & 21:6-8).

If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce (although we are unable to imagine an alternative moral reality in detail, cf. Kant). This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”

"God can do whatever he wants with his creation." Yes, and Jesus revealed that God wants to love everyone (MT 5:44&48) which Paul also taught (1TM 2:3-4).

"Consider Pharaoh and Egypt, God lifted up Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh. Though Pharaoh opposed God's will he only really played right into God's will." Yes, which was non-damning of itself, because God deemed it necessary to cause the flow of history to include the Exodus/OT. IOW, Pharaoh was free to repent after Israel was delivered or free--to cooperate with Moses or not. (Cf. HB 3:1-4:11)

 

[SonJudgment]

"why would anyone ever choose to be damned out of their own freewill?" The answer is illustrated by A&E: because they exercised their MFW to doubt GW rather than to ask Him about the devil's lie. Room for doubt is due to distanciation or delayed damnation, the fact that the painful effect of sin does not occur immediately. Even so, both Jesus and Paul expressed consternation regarding people's foolish obstinacy by quoting IS 6:9-10.

"if God enables people to believe, then how have they really chosen of their own freewill to be saved if they have to be influenced?" Because such enabling of freewill permits folks to imitate A&E. So, the will of God initiates, and the will of souls cooperates--or not.

"God can never be evil because evil is opposition to God". If God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional creatures, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness. Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).

The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26). God’s decision to be all-loving is free because God could have chosen or determined to anoint Satan to embody evil logic/lies rather than Jesus to manifest love and truth (JN 1:14, PHP 2:9-11), and this earthly existence would be hell (RV 19:11-13, 20:7-10 & 21:6-8).

If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce (although we are unable to imagine an alternative moral reality in detail, cf. Kant). This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”

"God can do whatever he wants with his creation." Yes, and Jesus revealed that God wants to love everyone (MT 5:44&48) which Paul also taught (1TM 2:3-4).

"Consider Pharaoh and Egypt, God lifted up Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh. Though Pharaoh opposed God's will he only really played right into God's will." Yes, which was non-damning of itself, because God deemed it necessary to cause the flow of history to include the Exodus/OT. IOW, Pharaoh was free to repent after Israel was delivered or free--to cooperate with Moses or not. (Cf. HB 3:1-4:11)

Adam and Eve didn't act of their own freewill in fact Adam and Eve are a great example of how there is really not freewill. God never gave them a choice, he told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die. Even when they ate from the tree even this isn't an act of freewill, Eve had to be beguiled into eating from the tree thinking that it would not kill her, but rather that is would make her wise.

I'm not asking how God enables freewill, because there is not freewill. I'm asking; how is there freewill if God has to enable salvation? The answer is obvious that there isn't freewill if God has to enable you to have salvation.

Again evil is opposition to God. So God can't be evil because God does not oppose himself. Being that he is God he is above all and owns all, so he can do anythiing he pleases with what he owns. It is ironic you cite Romans 9 since this chapter and those specific verses destroy the premise of freewill and destroy the premise of stating that God is unjust for destroying the vessels of wrath. Just like the potter cannot be called unjust for making some pottery just to smash it and the shards cannot protest against him, so God cannot be called unjust for creating a wicked person and destroying them.

Really this touches on the great error of the idea of freewill in that it essentially puts man on the level of God and makes man deceived into thinking that he has a right to judge God. Man is utterly incapable of judging God just as the clay cannot really judge the potter, but it is the potter who does whatsoever he pleases with the clay and nobody can ever tell him he is unjust to do whatever he wants to do with what is rightfully his.

As for old Pharaoh you might want to go back and read Romans 9:15-22. Pharaoh never had freewill, nor did Moses, but God raised both of them up for his purpose and his will. To show his might in destroying Pharaoh and Egypt and to show his mercy in saving Moses and the Israelites.

So there is not really freewill, nor is there binary of wills between good and evil, there is only one will which is the will of God and those that have faith in God and those that do not have faith in God, and yet even the unfaithful are bound into the will of God and can and will be used to further the will of God just like Pharaoh and just like Moses.

 

[Adstar]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

It's an act of free will to come forward and post a post in CC declaring that you do not believe in free will...

It's amazing to me people make a free willed decision to be a calvinist and preach that they have no free will..

 

[GWH]

Adam and Eve didn't act of their own freewill in fact Adam and Eve are a great example of how there is really not freewill. God never gave them a choice, he told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die. Even when they ate from the tree even this isn't an act of freewill, Eve had to be beguiled into eating from the tree thinking that it would not kill her, but rather that is would make her wise.

I'm not asking how God enables freewill, because there is not freewill. I'm asking; how is there freewill if God has to enable salvation? The answer is obvious that there isn't freewill if God has to enable you to have salvation.

Again evil is opposition to God. So God can't be evil because God does not oppose himself. Being that he is God he is above all and owns all, so he can do anythiing he pleases with what he owns. It is ironic you cite Romans 9 since this chapter and those specific verses destroy the premise of freewill and destroy the premise of stating that God is unjust for destroying the vessels of wrath. Just like the potter cannot be called unjust for making some pottery just to smash it and the shards cannot protest against him, so God cannot be called unjust for creating a wicked person and destroying them.

Really this touches on the great error of the idea of freewill in that it essentially puts man on the level of God and makes man deceived into thinking that he has a right to judge God. Man is utterly incapable of judging God just as the clay cannot really judge the potter, but it is the potter who does whatsoever he pleases with the clay and nobody can ever tell him he is unjust to do whatever he wants to do with what is rightfully his.

As for old Pharaoh you might want to go back and read Romans 9:15-22. Pharaoh never had freewill, nor did Moses, but God raised both of them up for his purpose and his will. To show his might in destroying Pharaoh and Egypt and to show his mercy in saving Moses and the Israelites.

So there is not really freewill, nor is there binary of wills between good and evil, there is only one will which is the will of God and those that have faith in God and those that do not have faith in God, and yet even the unfaithful are bound into the will of God and can and will be used to further the will of God just like Pharaoh and just like Moses.

"Adam and Eve didn't act of their own freewill in fact Adam and Eve are a great example of how there is really not freewill. God never gave them a choice, he told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die. Even when they ate from the tree even this isn't an act of freewill." !! If they had no choice, then God was to blame.

I try to bypass such confusion by noting that the crucial choice regarding what to believe about free will is between universalism (God loves everyone and thus saves all souls) and blasphemy (attributing unrighteous hate to God regarding some souls). I err on the side of believing GW teaches that God is omniloving (1TM2:3-4, JN 3:16, etc.), but souls may reject rather than reflect His love/grace.

(Of course, you may choose to disagree :^)

 

[SonJudgment]

"Adam and Eve didn't act of their own freewill in fact Adam and Eve are a great example of how there is really not freewill. God never gave them a choice, he told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die. Even when they ate from the tree even this isn't an act of freewill." !! If they had no choice, then God was to blame.

I try to bypass such confusion by noting that the crucial choice regarding what to believe about free will is between universalism (God loves everyone and thus saves all souls) and blasphemy (attributing unrighteous hate to God regarding some souls). I err on the side of believing GW teaches that God is omniloving (1TM2:3-4, JN 3:16, etc.), but souls may reject rather than reflect His love/grace.

(Of course, you may choose to disagree :^)

No, God is not to fault for Adam and Eve. God told them unequivocally not to eat from the tree, he did not give them a choice. God told them what the consequences would be, so you can't say he tempted them either.

 

[GWH]

No, God is not to fault for Adam and Eve. God told them unequivocally not to eat from the tree, he did not give them a choice. God told them what the consequences would be, so you can't say he tempted them either.

Re "No, God is not to fault for Adam and Eve. God told them unequivocally not to eat from the tree, he did not give them a choice. God told them what the consequences would be, so you can't say he tempted them either." !!

Obviously, you ignored "the crucial choice regarding what to believe about free will is between universalism (God loves everyone and thus saves all souls) and blasphemy (attributing unrighteous hate to God regarding some souls)."

I confessed to erring on the side of believing GW teaches that God is omniloving (1TM2:3-4, JN 3:16, etc.), but souls may reject rather than reflect His love/grace.

You err on the side of believing God hates those he does not give the choice of being saved, which is blasphemous!
Consequences for doing something a soul cannot avoid is unjust. It contradicts the golden rule, for starters.
IMO, such error may be due to projection of your own hatred onto God.

 

[Jimbone]

Salvation issues and every day life. Blain, you are mixing apples and oranges. You know what doesn't make sense to me? Is how I can explain my beliefs about choice and the natural man vs the spiritual man for months on end to someone and then after all that they turn around and claim I have said man does not have a choice, as if we are all bots. Well, guess what? I have never, ever, said any such thing! Then after giving a plethora of verses over and over and over and over and over and over and over again I am told they have no idea what I mean when I talk about the natural man vs the spiritual man. Jeepers! Do these people not read the Bible at all? One must wonder. They make no distinction at all between the person who is enabled and the one who is not, and ascribe to the latter qualities and abilities only the former possess. And that is the crux of the discussion around free will. Introducing what you eat or what colour of socks you decide to wear has absolutely zero to do with any of it.

Well the problem is that they're not seeking knowledge or to understand you at all. These select few people have created this "enemy" in their heads and decided that God has called them to fight this monster. It's a Holy war. They've been trained to know the tricks of this "enemy" and therefore know better than to actually listen to them and interact with what they say. Oh no, no, no, no. They will tell you what you believe, and how you believe it, and then they will shred this horrible teaching like it was going out of style. Again what you say really isn't all that important in this kind of Holy war, they KNOIW what you believe and you will sit there and listen to it, first what it is, and then why "you're" wrong.

It's madness and I will no longer engage with the CDSC (Calvinist Derangement Syndrome Cult) at all anymore. Not because I hate them or don't want to share with them, but because they will not give others the respect of listening to them and debating in good faith. The bible tells me clearly that I'm not to waste time tossing pearls to be trampled. There are a few more places that tell us this but this says it well.

Titus 3 9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

 

[SonJudgment]

Re "No, God is not to fault for Adam and Eve. God told them unequivocally not to eat from the tree, he did not give them a choice. God told them what the consequences would be, so you can't say he tempted them either." !!

Obviously, you ignored "the crucial choice regarding what to believe about free will is between universalism (God loves everyone and thus saves all souls) and blasphemy (attributing unrighteous hate to God regarding some souls)."

I confessed to erring on the side of believing GW teaches that God is omniloving (1TM2:3-4, JN 3:16, etc.), but souls may reject rather than reflect His love/grace.

You err on the side of believing God hates those he does not give the choice of being saved, which is blasphemous!
Consequences for doing something a soul cannot avoid is unjust. It contradicts the golden rule, for starters.
IMO, such error may be due to projection of your own hatred onto God.

Well thinking everyone is going to be saved is obviously incorrect by all the repeated warnings about the everlasting hellfire. Just keep on reading the verses right after John 3:16 to figure that one out pretty fast. So then it would just be error upon error to presume both freewill, which doesn't exist, and also that everybody is going to get saved, which they won't be.

It's not blasphemy to say God makes some vessels for destruction and some for mercy, that's what the scriptures state in multiple places, ironically scriptures that you yourself have even cited. Nor is it a problem to say God hates things and people too, consider how it is written that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. Doesn't make God unjust at all, he can do whatever he pleases with what is his own. Rather it makes man unjust to think he has a right to judge God, or to think that he knows better than God, and it seems this is a common recurring error of those that subscribe to the false notion of freewill. Ultimately it is futile too since God's will shall always prevail and destiny is fixed in place and is most certain, destiny will not play out any other way, all of man's inferior ideas are ultimately vain and will never alter destiny and the grand plan of God.

 

[LifelongLearner]

It is also next to impossible to nip miscommunication in the bud before wrong understanding causes discussion to go off the rails.

It's an act of free will to come forward and post a post in CC declaring that you do not believe in free will...

It's amazing to me people make a free willed decision to be a calvinist and preach that they have no free will..

Please! So many have said that, it's boring and naff, plain wrong! I CHOSE to post this topic, free will is unnecessary as forums such as this give permission to do so.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Well thinking everyone is going to be saved is obviously incorrect by all the repeated warnings about the everlasting hellfire. Just keep on reading the verses right after John 3:16 to figure that one out pretty fast. So then it would just be error upon error to presume both freewill, which doesn't exist, and also that everybody is going to get saved, which they won't be.

It's not blasphemy to say God makes some vessels for destruction and some for mercy, that's what the scriptures state in multiple places, ironically scriptures that you yourself have even cited. Nor is it a problem to say God hates things and people too, consider how it is written that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. Doesn't make God unjust at all, he can do whatever he pleases with what is his own. Rather it makes man unjust to think he has a right to judge God, or to think that he knows better than God, and it seems this is a common recurring error of those that subscribe to the false notion of freewill. Ultimately it is futile too since God's will shall always prevail and destiny is fixed in place and is most certain, destiny will not play out any other way, all of man's inferior ideas are ultimately vain and will never alter destiny and the grand plan of God.

Think you both made some good points SJ, i personally think he might base such decisions on foreknowledge. Many will disagree which is fine with me, however, if good enough evidence otherwise turned up, i'd reconsider happily.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Well the problem is that they're not seeking knowledge or to understand you at all. These select few people have created this "enemy" in their heads and decided that God has called them to fight this monster. It's a Holy war. They've been trained to know the tricks of this "enemy" and therefore know better than to actually listen to them and interact with what they say. Oh no, no, no, no. They will tell you what you believe, and how you believe it, and then they will shred this horrible teaching like it was going out of style. Again what you say really isn't all that important in this kind of Holy war, they KNOIW what you believe and you will sit there and listen to it, first what it is, and then why "you're" wrong.

It's madness and I will no longer engage with the CDSC (Calvinist Derangement Syndrome Cult) at all anymore. Not because I hate them or don't want to share with them, but because they will not give others the respect of listening to them and debating in good faith. The bible tells me clearly that I'm not to waste time tossing pearls to be trampled. There are a few more places that tell us this but this says it well.

Titus 3 9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Stellar comment, think most people don't understand that Calvin and other reformers of the time, didn't develop their ideas in a vacuum. Rome/the Pope, not saying ordinary Catholics, were so corrupt and venal but had extraordinary power, much greater than all European royalty combined.

Convents often doubled as brothels and worse, Xmas was used as a cover for the practice of pagan/demonic rituals etc. It was the Victorians who sentimentalised Xmas as the festival we know now. In all fairness, like Mike Winger, i agree with a fair bit of Calvin and other reformers thinking but they went further than necessary in my opinion. Very understandable considering the shenanigans at the time.

 

[GWH]

Well thinking everyone is going to be saved is obviously incorrect by all the repeated warnings about the everlasting hellfire. Just keep on reading the verses right after John 3:16 to figure that one out pretty fast. So then it would just be error upon error to presume both freewill, which doesn't exist, and also that everybody is going to get saved, which they won't be.

It's not blasphemy to say God makes some vessels for destruction and some for mercy, that's what the scriptures state in multiple places, ironically scriptures that you yourself have even cited. Nor is it a problem to say God hates things and people too, consider how it is written that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. Doesn't make God unjust at all, he can do whatever he pleases with what is his own. Rather it makes man unjust to think he has a right to judge God, or to think that he knows better than God, and it seems this is a common recurring error of those that subscribe to the false notion of freewill. Ultimately it is futile too since God's will shall always prevail and destiny is fixed in place and is most certain, destiny will not play out any other way, all of man's inferior ideas are ultimately vain and will never alter destiny and the grand plan of God.

Yes, universalism doesn't jibe with GW.

The only way determinism works is if you view hell as just or jibing with love. If so, please explain your rationale before I continue.

 

[studentoftheword]

Adam and Eve didn't act of their own freewill in fact Adam and Eve are a great example of how there is really not freewill. God never gave them a choice, he told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die. Even when they ate from the tree even this isn't an act of freewill, Eve had to be beguiled into eating from the tree thinking that it would not kill her, but rather that is would make her wise.

i think you need to accept God's free offer of Salvation so you can ask the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT to enlighten you about God's intentions of giving us free will ------cause your Worldly View is just that Worldly and not Spiritual -----

The only free will we have is in our decisions we make ---that is it ------

lucifer had free will to choose -----he chose to allow Pride and Power to influence him and rebelled against God who created Him -----all angels have free to make their own decision just like we Humans have to serve God or Satan ---and some angels and Humans made the Choice to serve Satan and rebel against God ----

Eve had a choice to listen to God or listen to Satan who used deception to sway her choice -----Adam was a type of Christ and was the Captain of the Ship and his Wife persuaded him to make his choice to commit High Treason against God -----

If there was no free will to choose God would not have had to put curses on them ---as they would have been God's puppets and remained Faithful to God's Command -----there would have been no need for a satan in this world -----

Here is what you with your Worldly lens is missing to see ------

God needed Lucifer to become Satan so God could give Humans free Choice -----without Satan ---we would all be living and obeying God in harmony and peace -----there would be NO FREE CHOICE ---we would all be God's puppets doing His Will -----

So your No FREE WILL Theory is Satan putting thoughts in your head and you made a Free Will Choice to post your Satanic --deceptive thoughts here to try and deceive the true Doctrine of Free Choice that God gave us

You wrote this through infiltrated deceptive thoughts that Satan put in your mind ----and you chose to listen to the deceptive thought and post it all on your own free choice to do So ---- you had a choice to write this or not write this ----and you chose your own path here ------

Your mind becomes the battle ground for your free will choices ----

Your ignorance of Scripture and knowing God is very evident here -------Free Choice to choose ---Life or Death ----God Himself speaking Here and telling you to Choose LIFE OVER DEATH -----AND BLESSINGS OVER CURSES ====your choice


Deuteronomy 30:19

Expanded Bible

19 Today I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses. I am offering you life or death, blessings or curses. Now, choose life! Then you and your ·children [L seed] may live.

We have free will to choose ----Life or Death ---Blessings or Curses -----Eve had a choice ---Adam had a Choice ---Lucifer had a Choice ----and we have Free will to choose -----

Warning here for your free choice --with God's Free Will for us to Choose ----we need to choose Wisely

 

[Magenta]

Your ignorance of Scripture and knowing God is very evident here

Being taken captive to the will of the devil... yes, somehow that just screams free will to the multitudes.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.

 

[Jimbone]

i think you need to accept God's free offer of Salvation so you can ask the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT to enlighten you about God's intentions of giving us free will ------cause your Worldly View is just that Worldly and not Spiritual -----

The only free will we have is in our decisions we make ---that is it ------

lucifer had free will to choose -----he chose to allow Pride and Power to influence him and rebelled against God who created Him -----all angels have free to make their own decision just like we Humans have to serve God or Satan ---and some angels and Humans made the Choice to serve Satan and rebel against God ----

Eve had a choice to listen to God or listen to Satan who used deception to sway her choice -----Adam was a type of Christ and was the Captain of the Ship and his Wife persuaded him to make his choice to commit High Treason against God -----

If there was no free will to choose God would not have had to put curses on them ---as they would have been God's puppets and remained Faithful to God's Command -----there would have been no need for a satan in this world -----

Here is what you with your Worldly lens is missing to see ------

God needed Lucifer to become Satan so God could give Humans free Choice -----without Satan ---we would all be living and obeying God in harmony and peace -----there would be NO FREE CHOICE ---we would all be God's puppets doing His Will -----

So your No FREE WILL Theory is Satan putting thoughts in your head and you made a Free Will Choice to post your Satanic --deceptive thoughts here to try and deceive the true Doctrine of Free Choice that God gave us

You wrote this through infiltrated deceptive thoughts that Satan put in your mind ----and you chose to listen to the deceptive thought and post it all on your own free choice to do So ---- you had a choice to write this or not write this ----and you chose your own path here ------

Your mind becomes the battle ground for your free will choices ----

Your ignorance of Scripture and knowing God is very evident here -------Free Choice to choose ---Life or Death ----God Himself speaking Here and telling you to Choose LIFE OVER DEATH -----AND BLESSINGS OVER CURSES ====your choice


Deuteronomy 30:19

Expanded Bible

19 Today I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses. I am offering you life or death, blessings or curses. Now, choose life! Then you and your ·children [L seed] may live.

We have free will to choose ----Life or Death ---Blessings or Curses -----Eve had a choice ---Adam had a Choice ---Lucifer had a Choice ----and we have Free will to choose -----

Warning here for your free choice --with God's Free Will for us to Choose ----we need to choose Wisely

Nope, just because you refuse to understand that freewill does NOT = Choice.

Everyone that argues that we are FREE in our choice just simple refuses to understand that our choices are always a slave to our nature. You refuse to understand what we are saying and there's no way to get you to respect someone else enough to think a little deeper about these things. NO PONE IS SAYING WE DON'T HAVE CHOICE, we are saying that that choice is enslaved by our flesh nature or our spirit nature. The fact you cannot bring yourself to understand this will keep us from ever being on the same page. So have a great day.

 

[BillyBob]

I probably have a different take on free will than most.

I do believe that fallen man can exercise free will! However, this ability is only free when it comes to things of this world – and has been lost when it pertains to pleasing God and the world to come.
For example, If I'm driving, I can make the decision to make a left hand turn at the next light. I wish to do it, and I have the ability to make that decision. Otherwise, how can we function without this ability?

The first ADAM also had this ability, but, it went further in that he had the ability to please God. He could choose to please God by doing what he was commanded, or disobey and die. He chose the later and this ability was lost in the fall.

Man cannot please God unless he is regenerated. Even then, he can not do so perfectly.

Thank God - He gave us His Son and Spirit to forgive us when we fail!

 

[Jimbone]

I probably have a different take on free will than most.

I do believe that fallen man can exercise free will! However, this ability is only free when it comes to things of this world – and has been lost when it pertains to pleasing God and the world to come.
For example, If I'm driving, I can make the decision to make a left hand turn at the next light. I wish to do it, and I have the ability to make that decision. Otherwise, how can we function without this ability?

The first ADAM also had this ability, but, it went further in that he had the ability to please God. He could choose to please God by doing what he was commanded, or disobey and die. He chose the later and this ability was lost in the fall.

Man cannot please God unless he is regenerated. Even then, he can not do so perfectly.

Thank God - He gave us His Son and Spirit to forgive us when we fail!

Exactly. This isn't a very hard thing to grasp and Jesus tells us that this is true. Those who sin are slaves to sin. Period. Paul tells us that when we are born again, we become slaves to obedience leading to righteousness. So no matter in the flesh or in the Spirit, we never have a "free" will. Never. It just doesn't exist. That said we have choice, we have agency. I'm not saying we are robots or God "makes" us do anything. What it does mean is that our choices are always stuck in our natures.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I probably have a different take on free will than most.

So, precious friend, the thing I don't get is "how did God Create all things and man as good" and
then Adam "sinned Because he had no free will because of his choice being a slave to his totally depraved nature"??? Isn't that backwards?

Makes no sense, eh?

Thanks Be Unto God Of His Wonderful SON And Everlasting Redemption!

Amen.

 

[Magenta]

Exactly. This isn't a very hard thing to grasp and Jesus tells us that this is true. Those who sin are slaves to sin. Period. Paul tells us that when we are born again, we become slaves to obedience leading to righteousness. So no matter in the flesh or in the Spirit, we never have a "free" will. Never. It just doesn't exist. That said we have choice, we have agency. I'm not saying we are robots or God "makes" us do anything. What it does mean is that our choices are always stuck in our natures.

Exactly so, and this gets said often enough, and was imparted by Jesus Himself speaking of bad trees not bringing forth good fruit.
The stony ground of the natural man's heart is not going to produce the fruit of faith, plain and simple... something has to change first.