Do you disagree with John Hagee's prosperity teaching?

[SantoSubito]

So the priest pay for it or the papacy supplies the $150-400 for the "vestment" .
Serious question

Usually the individual parish will pay for it, since the vestments usually stay with the parish. Or in the case of a bishop the diocese pays for it, with the exception of the crosier which usually is the same crosier used by the first bishop of the diocese in the case of the US.

How much is THE POPES gear worth?

Including the CROWN and all the other frills??

Most of the Popes clothing has been in use for a long time, so I don't think anyone is sure exactly how much it costs. The only exception is the Popes standard white or red outfit, which will change for each Pope.

Similarly the Papal Tiara has been around since the Renaissance, so no one is sure exactly how much it costs, or at least the three crowns themselves have.

Other than that the only other item that would be of any cost would be either of the Papal crosses regularly carried by the Pope, both of which has been around since the 1700s or earlier.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Just by sheer volume of material, I'd say Hagee's suits are much more expensive than priest vestments, regardless of material or workmanship quality. Maybe they were cut down from remnants of the Apostle Paul's trade.

Anyway... The passage from John's epistle goes on to say, "...even as your soul prospers.", which is the context conveniently left out by prosperity doctrine proof-texting.

I guess all those evangelized third-world converts were/are just left out of the "true" blessings of salvation.

 

[1still_waters]

Just by sheer volume of material, I'd say Hagee's suits are much more expensive than priest vestments, regardless of material or workmanship quality.

Maybe they were cut down from remnants of the Apostle Paul's trade.

Anyway... The passage from John's epistle goes on to say, "...even as your soul prospers.", which is the context conveniently left out by prosperity doctrine proof-texting.

I guess all those evangelized third-world converts were/are just left out of the "true" blessings of salvation.

Either way, I'm sure Jesus wore fancy expensive hats handed down to him. I'm sure he wore expensive suits. I'm also sure he mandated and or encouraged his messengers to wear fancy expensive handed down hats with expensive suits.

Matthew 8:20
Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

2 corinthians 11

26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.

 

[Crossfire]

Should be understood that prosperity gospel is not about God rewarding us for for our good deeds, led by the Holy Spirit, using finances or earthly possessions. Yes, there may be times and occasions where God may choose to go that route.
Prosperity teachers teach to have 'faith in your own faith', you are to believe that you 'create' your reality by the words you speak. 'Prosperity' comes from 'speaking it into existence using faith in your words' and that God will just come in and give it to you.
Also, the other way to get rich, give to their ministry. Many of them twist scripture to convince you of concepts such as the 'hundredfold blessing'. You give a dollar to their ministry, God will give you $100... you give $10,000 God will magically grant you $100,000. Give a car, God will reward you with 100 cars. Etc... giving to get is the idea. Not giving to help.

Also common teachings are that salvation did not happen on the cross. But that when Jesus 'took on the nature of Satan' on the cross, when he died he was dragged to hell for 3 days of torment in hell. Then God resurrects Christ, renewing his spirit as well, making Christ become the 'first born again man'. Salvation didn't occur til the resurrection, not on the cross. One preacher said if salvation were capable from the cross alone, that 'any born again man' could have saved us.

In true faith theology God is a screw up, and a genie in a bottle. And some teach we are actually all 'gods' ourselves. The power to get rich comes from our own faith in faith, which they consider to be an actual 'substance' in the universe. This exact teaching is found, reworded, in metaphysical cults and new age teachings.

These are just a few of the issues with the doctrines of Word of Faith/prosperity gospel. They keep going, all just as bad. Deifying man, making God just a bellhop for humanity, faith in ourselves rather than God. Placing words with 'faith' behind them as the ability to speak things into existence. Removing salvation from the cross and into hell.. it goes on. This is not a true gospel.

Amazon.com: Christianity In Crisis: The 21st Century (9780849900068): Hank Hanegraaff: Books

I don't think it's a fair assumption to clump the Prosperity movement with the Word of Faith movement. While I don't agree with either, from what I've seen the two are unrelated. Besides there all kinds of denominations that are now embracing prosperity. While the Word of Faith movement is somewhat denominationaly isolated.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Either way, I'm sure Jesus wore fancy expensive hats handed down to him. I'm sure he wore expensive suits. I'm also sure he mandated and or encouraged his messengers to wear fancy expensive handed down hats with expensive suits.

Matthew 8:20
Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

2 corinthians 11

26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.

My post was sarcastic humor.

 

[SantoSubito]

Either way, I'm sure Jesus wore fancy expensive hats handed down to him. I'm sure he wore expensive suits. I'm also sure he mandated and or encouraged his messengers to wear fancy expensive handed down hats with expensive suits.

Your not one of those "the Vatican should liquidate all their assets" people are you?

 

[Strangelove]

Your not one of those "the Vatican should liquidate all their assets" people are you?

Vatican doesnt have any assets. The Rothschilds own it all.

 

[SantoSubito]

Vatican doesnt have any assets. The Rothschilds own it all.

I'm not even going to ask

 

[1still_waters]

My post was sarcastic humor.

Cool. I was just building on your foundation.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm not even going to ask

‘It is a somewhat curious sequel to the attempt to set up a Catholic competitor to the Rothschilds that at the present time (1905) the latter are guardians of the papal treasure.’

The Jewish Encyclopedia., vol. 2, p. 497

The banks own you buddy.

 

[1still_waters]

Your not one of those "the Vatican should liquidate all their assets" people are you?

I'll just leave you with what Jesus said to a certain group of religious leaders who liked their fancy clothing too. I report. You decide.

Matthew 23.


5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

 

[Strangelove]

I'll just leave you with what Jesus said to a certain group of religious leaders who liked their fancy clothing too.

Oh but the fancy robes and all the pomp and ceremony and incense just make us feel...oh...just sooooooo religiousy and important!

 

[1still_waters]

More from Jesus on those who loved to dress fancy..

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

 

[1still_waters]

I guess as long as their inside is as squeaky clean as their handed down hat, robes, jewels and the like, then they might be ok....But after watching the decades of pedophile priests and the pope overlooking it..something tells me they'd do best to sell the shiny robes and hats..cuz the inside isn't matching the outside.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The Institute for Works of Religion (IOR) is not owned by the Rothschilds though in the early 19th century the Rothschild family of Naples did build close relations and the association between the Rothschild family and the Vatican continued into the 20th century.

First, the Vatican is the pope's soverign territory, with himself its head of state as per the Lateran Treaty of 1929 between the Roman Catholic Church and Italy.

And the Pope owns the Vatican, absolutely. There are no known leases or other forms of tenure in the Vatican state. In theory all Catholic Church property held abroad is held independently by the dioceses in the country which they formed; however, ultimately ownership of all Catholic property rests with the Pope.

The IOR is the Roman Catholic bank and the Pope ultimately controls both though obviously he delegates authority for both to be run and managed... in the case of the IOR today by three boards of directors:

1. a board of high-ranking cardinals.
2. a board of international bankers.
3. Professional bank CEO, Vatican bank officers, and a directorate which run the day-to-day affairs.

Vatican banking power was restructured in the 1940's into the current stratified organizational structure and the power of the Rothschilds on Vatican assets are today limited limited to a member's role on the board of international bankers.

So, the IOR is a privately held banking institute which operates outside the central administrative structure of the Catholic Church, is headquartered and located inside Vatican City, and run by a professional bank CEO who reports directly to a board committee of cardinals, and ultimately to the Pope with international banker advisement. It is not overseen by the Prefecture for the Economic Affairs who control the Pope's personal property.

There is also the Apostolic Patrimony of the Holy See (APSA) which functions as the Vatican Central Bank and the Ministry of Economics both located in the Vatican city state and both ultimately accountable to the Pope though authority is delegated to others to run and manage them more directly within the Roman Catholic Church on behalf of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church for the benefit of over 1 billion Catholics.

There have been various, and serious, scandels associated with the IOR until the Pope stepped in early 2010 and ordered that IOR banking standards be brought up to international standards and the level of the international banking white list.

Vatican doesnt have any assets. The Rothschilds own it all.

 

[Strangelove]

The Institute for Works of Religion (IOR) is not owned by the Rothschilds though in the early 19th century the Rothschild family of Naples did build close relations and the association between the Rothschild family and the Vatican continued into the 20th century.

First, the Vatican is the pope's soverign territory, with himself its head of state as per the Lateran Treaty of 1929 between the Roman Catholic Church and Italy.

And the Pope owns the Vatican, absolutely. There are no known leases or other forms of tenure in the Vatican state. In theory all Catholic Church property held abroad is held independently by the dioceses in the country which they formed; however, ultimately ownership of all Catholic property rests with the Pope.

The IOR is the Roman Catholic bank and the Pope ultimately controls both though obviously he delegates authority for both to be run and managed... in the case of the IOR today by three boards of directors:

1. a board of high-ranking cardinals.
2. a board of international bankers.
3. Professional bank CEO, Vatican bank officers, and a directorate which run the day-to-day affairs.

Vatican banking power was restructured in the 1940's into the current stratified organizational structure and the power of the Rothschilds on Vatican assets are today limited limited to a member's role on the board of international bankers.

So, the IOR is a privately held banking institute which operates outside the central administrative structure of the Catholic Church, is headquartered and located inside Vatican City, and run by a professional bank CEO who reports directly to a board committee of cardinals, and ultimately to the Pope with ineternational banker advisement. It is not overseen by the Prefecture for the Economic Affairs who control the Pope's personal property.

There is also the Apostolic Patrimony of the Holy See (APSA) which functions as the Vatican Central Bank and the Ministry of Economics both located in the Vatican city state and both ultimately accountable to the Pope though authority is delegated to others to run and manage them is directly handled by the Roman Catholic Church on behalf of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church for the benefit of over 1 billion Catholics.

There have been various, and serious, scandels associated with the IOR until the Pope stepped in early 2010 and ordered that IOR banking standards be brought up to international standards and the level of the international banking white list.

What if the pope took a massive mortgage out on the vatican?

And then defaulted on payments?

Countries do it all the time and end up in the hands of the bankers. Why would the vatican be any different?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Regarding today's prosperity gospel, it was absent from the early Pentecostal Movement. In the early days, Pentecostals taught that a holy lifestyle and exercising God's wisdom as found in scripture was the path to spiritual and life prosperity. They taught that hard work and Godly living were the keys to blessing.

Then in 1947 Oral Roberts began teaching the basics of what would become prosperity theology and the healing revivals of the 1950's latched onto it. Preachers discovered that if they taught people they would become wealthy by giving away their money to them, that the preachers ended up with a lot more money and the the Neo-Pentecostal prosperity theology movement began.

Now preachers fight with each other in backroom political battles to get the chance to tell you to give as much of your money to God as you possibly can, via them and their organizations, so you can become materially rich and wealthy in this world. But you have to have faith that this will happen because, obviously, it makes zero economic sense.

 

[Strangelove]

Regarding today's prosperity gospel, it was absent from the early Pentecostal Movement. In the early days, Pentecostals taught that a holy lifestyle and exercising God's wisdom as found in scripture was the path to spiritual and life prosperity. They taught that hard work and Godly living were the keys to blessing.

Then in 1947 Oral Roberts began teaching the basics of what would become prosperity theology and the healing revivals of the 1950's latched onto it. Preachers discovered that if they taught people they would become wealthy by giving away their money to them, that the preachers ended up with a lot more money and the the Neo-Pentecostal prosperity theology movement began.

Now preachers fight with each other in backroom political battles to get the chance to tell you to give as much of your money to God as you possibly can, via them and their organizations, so you can become materially rich and wealthy in this world. But you have to have faith that this will happen because, obviously, it makes zero economic sense.

CONSPIRACY THEORIST!!!

Show me documented credible proof of shady backroom political battles between preachers!

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Cool. I was just building on your foundation.

Ahhh, I see. Well said, then.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Calm down strangelove. We wouldn't want you to have a conniption. There's no conspiracy. That's a term you use. What I referred to was a simple jockying for position. The more and better supporters one can get, the more financially successful they can be. Competition is perfectly normal in business and companies compete for the best advertising venues everyday. These ministries often operate like businesses in that they compete with each other for supporters and advertising. If you weren't so consumed with your conspiracy, and had a better education, you would understand this and not falsely label it a conspiracy.

And as for the Roman Catholic Church ever going "bankrupt," I don't believe it's possible. They have the support of 16% of the world's population and probably another 10%, at the least, would contribute to get them back on track if they ever ran into serious financial problems. Do you think you could go bankrupt if you had 26% of the world's population ready to give to make sure you didn't. Of course not. You're dreaming.