The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

Speaking in such absolutes (no one would even think...) typically shows an error in reasoning and is in fact a fallacious form of argument.

It does not mean there is an error in thinking

I sat with a man once who had been very active in ministry in his church for years and who could answer virtually any question I could ask him about Christ, about faith, etc. and who said he had believed, explained to me what he had believed, but no longer did and had recently walked away. He was very open to discussion but was resolute in his decision.

I don't and cannot know what happened with him after that, but nor can I say no one would even think... because I see in our Text that they can and I've experienced the above face-to-face.

Judas walked with jesus for three years and could probably do the same.

We know for a fact Judas never had faith..

so nice try

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Some may, but probably not as many as you will allege.

anyone who thinks they can rip themselves out of Gods arms. and put themselves back in unbelief and hell think this..

 

[GWH]

Well no we should not.

Because the word means to be lost or destroyed.

But thank you

That is A word; what is needed is harmonizing ALL of GW.
You're welcome for my suggestion about how to do so.
I await your constructive suggestion in that regard.

 

[GWH]

I could care less about the sour 16 or whatever that is.

I care about the word used by the apostle John and the word spoken by Jesus.

I suggest you worry about this also. and stop changing the meaning of the word Jesus used.

Newsbreak: Jesus inspired Paul and other NT writers.

I did not change the meaning of the word Jesus used;
I explained how it can jibe with the meaning of 15 other words Jesus also used.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Some may, but probably not as many as you will allege.

To be fair,the observation you excerpted from EG's post is proven by the posts of some in this very thread.

 

[bluejean_bible]

anyone who thinks they can rip themselves out of Gods arms. and put themselves back in unbelief and hell think this..

What is concerning for me is , those that do argue here in that way tell us first that they are Christians.

How can they live in the peace of Christ while holding to that precarious tenuous identity as one in Christ?

 

[bluejean_bible]

Speaking in such absolutes (no one would even think...) typically shows an error in reasoning and is in fact a fallacious form of argument.

I think ,if I may,the error on reasoning is to imply an absolute,as you have there, in an effort to attempt to refute an absolute.

Christians have a specific absolute identity known souly, spelling intended, to God.

Christians are sealed by Holy Spirit. As is referred to in an epistle, we have tasted the heavenly gift.

Knowing how it feels to have God's Spirit within and working within us,speaking to us as we grow in our confidence to let go and hear God, is a precious unique experience for every saint. Because we are in an intimate relationship with the power within all of creation. And he knows our name.

Having that link and being aware of that bond, allows someone within that embrace to speak in the absolute when giving a personal testimony as pertains to the suggestion,we can freely choose to release ourselves from God's intimate embrace.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is A word; what is needed is harmonizing ALL of GW.
You're welcome for my suggestion about how to do so.
I await your constructive suggestion in that regard.

That is not just a word

It is the word Jesus used.

You want us to replace the word with a word Jesus did not use.

Your the one who needs to harmonize scripture to make it so it agrees with the word Jesus used.

My scripture harmonizes well.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Newsbreak: Jesus inspired Paul and other NT writers.

I did not change the meaning of the word Jesus used;

Yes you did.

Jesus said, I should "lose" nothing.

the word used is apoleso

the word means to destroy, to perish, to LOSE, to kill, to slay to demolish etc etc.

Repudiate means to refuse to accept or refuse to be associated with.

sorry, But they are not equal in terms. Repudiate would be changing the meaning of the word. so you are in error my friend.

Jesus used the word

And yes, God inspired Paul. So interpret Paul's words to harmonize with Jesus words that no one will be lost.

I explained how it can jibe with the meaning of 15 other words Jesus also used.

Your explanation failed. because it fails to take what Jesus said into account they do not harmonize. you had to change the meaning of the word jesus used to get your scripture to harmonize.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What is concerning for me is , those that do argue here in that way tell us first that they are Christians.

How can they live in the peace of Christ while holding to that precarious tenuous identity as one in Christ?

if we think about it. Are they different than the jews. Who thought they too were in good standing with God. and argue that they were Gods people.

yet when confronted by Christ himself who told them what you and I know and believe. they crucified him.

 

[GWH]

Yes you did.

Jesus said, I should "lose" nothing.

the word used is apoleso

the word means to destroy, to perish, to LOSE, to kill, to slay to demolish etc etc.

Repudiate means to refuse to accept or refuse to be associated with.

sorry, But they are not equal in terms. Repudiate would be changing the meaning of the word. so you are in error my friend.

Jesus used the word

And yes, God inspired Paul. So interpret Paul's words to harmonize with Jesus words that no one will be lost.

Your explanation failed. because it fails to take what Jesus said into account they do not harmonize. you had to change the meaning of the word jesus used to get your scripture to harmonize.

Yes, it is BOTH the word Jesus used in that situation AND one word among many that Jesus inspired to be used in other contexts,
so connecting the dots or harmonizing all of the words is what we ALL should try to do.

I am interested to learn how you harmonize these scriptures, so I can see how you harmonize Jesus with Paul and
whether our website needs to be amended regarding the need for persevering faith.

 

[bluejean_bible]

if we think about it. Are they different than the jews. Who thought they too were in good standing with God. and argue that they were Gods people.

yet when confronted by Christ himself who told them what you and I know and believe. they crucified him.

No.
I cant in good conscience say I agree they can be compared to the Jews.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, it is BOTH the word Jesus used in that situation AND one word among many that Jesus inspired to be used in other contexts,
so connecting the dots or harmonizing all of the words is what we ALL should try to do.

I am interested to learn how you harmonize these scriptures, so I can see how you harmonize Jesus with Paul and
whether our website needs to be amended regarding the need for persevering faith.

You do not harmonize the words though

Jesus said they will NEVER BE LOST

You claim other passages say they can be lost. or that it should say they repudiate.

repudiate does not mean lost. they are not even closely united.

Again, its on you. I do not have to do anything. The word speaks for itself.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No.
I cant in good conscience say I agree they can be compared to the Jews.

I just used them as an example. of how people can do what you asked. its what the jews did

 

[GWH]

You do not harmonize the words though

Jesus said they will NEVER BE LOST

You claim other passages say they can be lost. or that it should say they repudiate.

repudiate does not mean lost. they are not even closely united.

Again, its on you. I do not have to do anything. The word speaks for itself.

I try, which is more than some folks do.

Apparently you believe in some sort of tiered truth. I don't suppose you would rate the NT books in order of their degree of being inspired by God?

I claim what the sour 16 say, including your favorite.

At least we agree that repudiate does not mean lost. Yay!
(One less thang :^)

And we agree that you do not have to harmonize GW.

 

[bluejean_bible]

But your not seeking to harmonize scripture. But to change its meaning. Proven by the fact you are trying to change the meaning of John 6

Yes, the salvation teaching does run in harmony with the entire Bible. Both old and new.

That's how God is. Consistent.
I suggest we consider GWH is of the Armenian denomination,given their arguments as relates to insecurity in Christ.

As such they will not be led by us to a different understanding.

Meanwhile, I thought to share an article to you from my bookmark file.

I enjoy this resource very much. Let me know your thoughts please.God Bless.
Amen.
https://bible.org/question/does-matthew-1022-mean-believer-can-lose-his-salvation
Does Matthew 10:22 mean a believer can lose his salvation?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I try, which is more than some folks do.

How can you say you try?

Apparently you believe in some sort of tiered truth. I don't suppose you would rate the NT books in order of their degree of being inspired by God?

I claim what the sour 16 say, including your favorite.

They do not harmonize according to your interpretation.

At least we agree that repudiate does not mean lost. Yay!
(One less thang :^)

And we agree that you do not have to harmonize GW.

But I disagree, you have to harmonize,

Jesus said they can never be lost, so all scripture have to harmonize with what jesus said.

if you see somethign that appears tro say they can be lost. then something is wrong.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, the salvation teaching does run in harmony with the entire Bible. Both old and new.

That's how God is. Consistent.
I suggest we consider GWH is of the Armenian denomination,given their arguments as relates to insecurity in Christ.

As such they will not be led by us to a different understanding.

Meanwhile, I thought to share an article to you from my bookmark file.

I enjoy this resource very much. Let me know your thoughts please.God Bless.
Amen.
https://bible.org/question/does-matthew-1022-mean-believer-can-lose-his-salvation
Does Matthew 10:22 mean a believer can lose his salvation?

we agree as to what it means

salvation is physical. Whoever endures at this horrific time until Christ returns. will witness the second greatest even in human history (the first being the cross) and get to enter the kingdom with Jesus

 

[bluejean_bible]

we agree as to what it means

salvation is physical. Whoever endures at this horrific time until Christ returns. will witness the second greatest even in human history (the first being the cross) and get to enter the kingdom with Jesus

Certainly. Endurance pertains to never losing trust in whatever trials or travails faced, we shall overcome through the irrevocable confidence and power of holy Spirit.

Endurance,as I feel and see it in the word,doesn't relate to keeping hold of the faith ,worried we might lose our grasp if challenges become too great.

I believe endurance scriptures are there to fortify our confidence. Not reiterate the tenuous nature of our salvation.

 

[studier]

It does not mean there is an error in thinking

Good to know an error in reasoning is not an error in thinking.

Judas walked with jesus for three years and could probably do the same.

We know for a fact Judas never had faith..

I wonder if you could confirm this with Scripture.

so nice try

And many disciples walked with Jesus for some period of time who did not believe and had not been given to Him by His Father and then walked away.

Understood.

And then we have Galatians and Hebrews and the 4 soils and....

So, no I don't automatically go to never believed as you and others do.

Interlineated reply.