The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[GWH]

Yes.

Of course, if I use it to print out the passages I cite, you might need to ask CC for a speed reading course :^)

 

[PaulThomson]

(I envision my role to be that of editing everyone's translation and commentary into a conflated version that makes everyone happy :^)

That is a somewhat problematic intention.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Isn't it obvious to you that even some who read that someone can fall away does not mean they think that all will?

For me, it is concerning that any reborn sinner would interpret,as a Christian, that what God said is irrevocable, eternal salvation, actually is so. And that is so by either man or God's free will choice.

 

[Kroogz]

I would wonder how anyone could ever insist,but they do none the less, that their will to return to damnation is always in all ways going to be mightier than Gods will to eternally redeem and save them to life.

Well, the loss of salvation crowd is typically focused on others and their failings.They have it all figured out for themselves.

But yeah, if we lost salvation, it's game over. We are now a sinner in need of salvation again, the Spirit is foreign to us, and we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ again to be saved. Crucify Him again and start from scratch.

Loss of salvation would mean we lost EVERYTHING we know about God and we would be completely natural again.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ would once again be a revolutionary idea to us.

Not happening. We never perish. We have eternal life.

 

[Kroogz]

For me, it is concerning that any reborn sinner would interpret,as a Christian, that what God said is irrevocable, eternal salvation, actually is so. And that is so by either man or God's free will choice.

just imagine, if we lost salvation....... We would be asking the evangelist, "who is this Jesus you speak of?"

Loss of salvation means loss of EVERYTHING.

 

[bluejean_bible]

just imagine, if we lost salvation....... We would be asking the evangelist, "who is this Jesus you speak of?"

Loss of salvation means loss of EVERYTHING.

And,where would the peace in Christ be?

Think of that school of thought that insists we must work to retain our salvation. Which discounts the work Jesus did for us on the cross.

Both ideologies, salvation insecurity,works salvation, vacate any chance for peace in Christ. Because both ideologies are egocentric. Man's authority.

Which lead to thinking , am I doing enough to keep myself saved?

 

[Kroogz]

And,where would the peace in Christ be?

Think of that school of thought that insists we must work to retain our salvation. Which discounts the work Jesus did for us on the cross.

Both ideologies, salvation insecurity,works salvation, vacate any chance for peace in Christ. Because both ideologies are egocentric. Man's authority.

Which lead to thinking , am I doing enough to keep myself saved?

Matt 11:30
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[bluejean_bible]

Matt 11:30
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Note the text not there in the continuation of that verse?
"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light if you choose to don the yoke and decide to keep it and labor to hold it in place."

 

[GWH]

That is a somewhat problematic intention.

Let me amend it to say "or at least disagree agreeably, as you and I do at times".

 

[FRB72]

I am not familiar with Bob Wilkin.

My question and reference to our resource website was prompted by FRB72 saying "I am neither a Calvinist or an Arminian".

Are these verses from Philippians 2 Calvinist or Arminian?

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

My answer would be both and neither.

Both positions are simply man-made interpretations of a selection of verses which taken to their conclusions mishandle the text, the revealed character of God and clear theology on the nature of our blood-bought salvation.

 

[FRB72]

Further, (if anyone is interested) the perspective I hold was exposed by Roger Price in Eternal Security (parts 1-3) available on Spotify and YouTube. More recently, Andy Woods has articulated a very similar view that incorporates free will, God’s forknowledge, judgement of believers works etc. Well worth looking into actually.

 

[FRB72]

When one is familiar with the Free Grace tradition it can also be clear how that tradition does what other traditions do and reads some of its interpretations into what Heb6 is saying.

I find it interesting that the context of Hebrews is of shaky Hebrew Christians who are at the milk stage, needing to be reminded of what Jesus accomplished for them. They are reminded of the rebellion at Kadesh Barnea and the failure of the Hebrews to enter into the land the Lord had bid them enter by faith.

In that context, a 1st Century Jewish believer who fell away and put the gospel to an open shame would be someone who returned to the sacrificial system out of religious peer pressure, rather than trusting in Jesus’s perfect sacrifice.

Those who hold to the idea that once someone “falls away” it is impossible to restore them must give an account of the sinful man thrown out of the Corinthians church due to gross sexual misconduct. In a contradictory turn of events to the supposed fiery doom intended for such a man, he is both restored and other believers exhorted to lift him up rather than condemn him.

 

[studier]

I find it interesting that the context of Hebrews is of shaky Hebrew Christians who are at the milk stage, needing to be reminded of what Jesus accomplished for them. They are reminded of the rebellion at Kadesh Barnea and the failure of the Hebrews to enter into the land the Lord had bid them enter by faith.

In that context, a 1st Century Jewish believer who fell away and put the gospel to an open shame would be someone who returned to the sacrificial system out of religious peer pressure, rather than trusting in Jesus’s perfect sacrifice.

Those who hold to the idea that once someone “falls away” it is impossible to restore them must give an account of the sinful man thrown out of the Corinthians church due to gross sexual misconduct. In a contradictory turn of events to the supposed fiery doom intended for such a man, he is both restored and other believers exhorted to lift him up rather than condemn him.

So, do you tie the danger for the Jewish Christian to being the same danger for the Gentile (and or Jewish) Christian Paul is dealing with in Galatians?

Then, does Hebrews mean something different that the Corinthian issue, or do we let Corinthians explain away and override all the very harsh sounding consequences in Hebrews and Galatians?

 

[GWH]

Are these verses from Philippians 2 Calvinist or Arminian?

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

My answer would be both and neither.

Both positions are simply man-made interpretations of a selection of verses which taken to their conclusions mishandle the text, the revealed character of God and clear theology on the nature of our blood-bought salvation.

One answer is neither,
the Calvinist answer is to ignore v.12 and say v.13 determines election,
and the Arminian answer is both: God both works and enables souls to cooperate with His will--or not.
All answers are "man-made interpretations".

 

[FRB72]

One answer is neither,
the Calvinist answer is to ignore v.12 and say v.13 determines election,
and the Arminian answer is both: God both works and enables souls to cooperate with His will--or not.
All answers are "man-made interpretations".

I have spent time in the Methodist church as well as the CofE before becoming “non-denominational”.

I have heard the Arminian interpretation for a long time and it seems to me that it ignores the completed work of Jesus and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

The hard Calvinist perspective seems to equate our unregenerate free will to that of a stone, making evangelism and apologetics seem irrelevant.

The image that came to me when trying to figure out the Philippians passage was of an electric bike with pedals. Somewhere in the black box our free will to pedal meets the power of the battery, making the journey far easier than it might otherwise be. I am satisfied to not know what happens in the black box of the bike in the same way as I am satisfied that God can reconcile free will and predestination in his attributes. I don’t expect or need to understand HOW He does it as I lack those divine capacities to comprehend it.

 

[FRB72]

So, do you tie the danger for the Jewish Christian to being the same danger for the Gentile (and or Jewish) Christian Paul is dealing with in Galatians?

Then, does Hebrews mean something different that the Corinthian issue, or do we let Corinthians explain away and override all the very harsh sounding consequences in Hebrews and Galatians?

Have you ever knowingly entered a sinful route after being saved? Have you subsequently repented and been restored?

 

[Kroogz]

I find it interesting that the context of Hebrews is of shaky Hebrew Christians who are at the milk stage, needing to be reminded of what Jesus accomplished for them. They are reminded of the rebellion at Kadesh Barnea and the failure of the Hebrews to enter into the land the Lord had bid them enter by faith.

In that context, a 1st Century Jewish believer who fell away and put the gospel to an open shame would be someone who returned to the sacrificial system out of religious peer pressure, rather than trusting in Jesus’s perfect sacrifice.

Those who hold to the idea that once someone “falls away” it is impossible to restore them must give an account of the sinful man thrown out of the Corinthians church due to gross sexual misconduct. In a contradictory turn of events to the supposed fiery doom intended for such a man, he is both restored and other believers exhorted to lift him up rather than condemn him.

Exactly.And we can draw a parallel every time a believer says we can lose salvation......It puts The Lord Jesus Christ to open shame.

Rom 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Heb 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[FRB72]

In philosophy, binary logic indicates the “law of the excluded middle”….

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

The assumption is that Calvinism and Arminianism represent two logical poles, and that either one is true or the other is. The two historic positions are not the only possible ideas though…

This is, in reality no different to a British person thinking there are only two possible political parties, Labour and Conservative. Yet there are political ideas that sit between Karl Marx and Ayn Rand. As the polls are showing, this reality is shifting.

In the same way, there are a number of ideas about how God respects (and appeals to) our free will, yet is able in his forknowledge to elect and seal His own. I am not claiming spatial insight other than having come across a variety of ideas, some of which I have rejected, others of which I have found helpful and liberating.

 

[FRB72]

I found this metaphor helpful as well…

You may be familiar with fractals and the Mandelbrot set. It deals with numbers on the simple AND the complex plane. Together they form a mathematical pattern of infinite depth:

In order to arrive at these patterns, math in all planes is required, most of which goes over my head. Regardless, I can revel in the infinite depth of God and enjoy a glimpse into His nature.

 

[GWH]

I have spent time in the Methodist church as well as the CofE before becoming “non-denominational”.

I have heard the Arminian interpretation for a long time and it seems to me that it ignores the completed work of Jesus and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

The hard Calvinist perspective seems to equate our unregenerate free will to that of a stone, making evangelism and apologetics seem irrelevant.

The image that came to me when trying to figure out the Philippians passage was of an electric bike with pedals. Somewhere in the black box our free will to pedal meets the power of the battery, making the journey far easier than it might otherwise be. I am satisfied to not know what happens in the black box of the bike in the same way as I am satisfied that God can reconcile free will and predestination in his attributes. I don’t expect or need to understand HOW He does it as I lack those divine capacities to comprehend it.

I belong to a Methodist church because it is the closest, which is the NT basis for church formation--originally in houses.

I also belong to a Baptist Church, because that is how I was raised and the denomination in which I was ordained, but it is rather far away.

I also belong to a Bible Church, because it had the best Sunday teaching I could find for awhile, but it is also rather far for attending frequently.

About the time I graduated from High School I realized that I only knew how salvation worked and needed to learn more black box doctrines in order to become a stronger Christian and better witness as my introverted personality allowed.

By reading the Bible through in four translations and taking notes in the margins to connect dots I learned a lot, augmented by seminary classes required for becoming a degreed minister and chaplain.

At this point in my life, as I continue to LGW my main ministry is passing on the results of my good fight via our website and CC before I pass on, which might not be for a few years, but we should always be ready.