The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[mailmandan]

I wonder how we can measure faith in terms of percentages. Are you saying that to be saved, we need faith which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness? How would you know if your faith was 49% (unsaved) or 51% (saved)? Do you have any bible passages that give even the slightest hint of measuring faith in percentage terms?

Or have I somehow totally misunderstood what you meant? If so, I apologise.

Anything less than trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation falls short. 50% trust in Christ and 50% trust in works misses the mark and renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

 

[studier]

I don't think Jesus is saying in v. 65 that God grants men to Jesus. I think He is saying that God grants to men the ability to come to Jesus. God uses various means to draw the attention of even sceptics and Jesus-haters and God-haters to Jesus, so that they are held accountable for what they then choose to do with Him. We are told that Jesus had no form or comeliness that we should desire Him Isa 53:2 .
Jesus in His human appearance was so ordinary and nondescript and goody-two-shoes that no one would take any notice of him apart from the works and words that the Father chose to do and say through Jesus. These are what drew people to come to Him to hear Him and closely examine Him. And closely examining Him they could find no genuine fault in Him, and were therefore accountable for rejecting or accepting Him and His teaching. I believe this is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless it is give to Him by My Father to do so." Jhn 6:65 And "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." Jhn 6:44
I don't assume this "coming" is referring to coming to faith in Jesus, but rather coming to Jesus to inspect and evaluate Him and His claims.

John6:64-65? Some men don't believe < "and He was saying, for this reason I have told you [all] that no man is able to come toward Me, unless it has been given to him from My Father". So, you're saying:

• The Father draws all men - All are given ability to come
  • Some choose not to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and do believe
• So, Jesus is pointing out personal responsibility

I would question whether sincere means genuine. The word for sincere means without wax. A statue that is sincere is a genuine statue, but it does not have its defects filled out with wax to look complete. I believe sincere faith is genuine and willing to admit where it is not perfect. It is like a statue that is imperfect but not doctored to look perfect, Insincere faith is genuine faith, but pretentiously added to with claims and bravado that make it to appear more complete than it really is, to hide one's doubts or misgivings rather than being honest about them. So, not a false faith, but a hypocritically pretentiously bolstered genuine faith.

Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith (he actually has).

If the lexicon had not said "sincere" as a choice of translation, or if it is not considering "sincere" as having the etymology or definition you are using, then is there the same problem with the Greek word? Here are 3 lexicons (highlighting is mine) and we can see in the Greek that it goes back to Greek drama and "play-acting" - the hypocrite - and it mainly means "pretense" which is also an English definition for "sincere".

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] ἀνυπόκριτος​

• ἀνυπόκριτος, ον (s. ὑποκρίτης; schol. on Aristoph., Av. 798; Iambl., Vi. Pyth. §69, 188 αἰδώς; Ps.-Demetr., De Eloc. 194; Wsd 5:18; 18:15) pert. to being without pretense, genuine, sincere, lit. ‘without play-acting’ ἀγάπη (ApcSed 1:4) Ro 12:9; 2 Cor 6:6. φιλαδελφία 1 Pt 1:22. πίστις 1 Ti 1:5; 2 Ti 1:5. σοφία Js 3:17.—DELG s.v. κρίνω. M-M. TW. Spicq.​

__________________________________​

Liddell-Scott, Greek Lexicon (Abridged)​

​

[LS] ἀνυπόκριτος​

ἀν-υπόκρι²τος, ον, (ὑποκρίνομαι) without dissimulation, N.T.​

__________________________________​

Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT​

​

[LN] ἀνυπόκριτος ον genuine 73.8​

Isn't pretend faith also false faith - pretending to believe something?

 

[GWH]

Anything less than trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation falls short. 50% trust in Christ and 50% trust in works misses the mark and renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

Yet the Bible does speak of saving faith as being weak or strong, which could be viewed in terms of a percentage.
For example, perhaps Peter's faith was strong most or 90% of the time, but weak at least three times when he denied knowing Christ.

So, we probably need to employ both-and thinking to say that faith has both a qualitative (kerygmatic) aspect
that either accepts Jesus as Lord (is sufficient to save) or doesn't (misses the mark) and a quantitative (didachaic) aspect
that increases as/correlates with growing toward moral maturity, as in Mark 9:24, Rom. 14:1-2, 1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:14-15 and Heb. 6:1-3.

 

[mailmandan]

Yet the Bible does speak of saving faith as being weak or strong, which could be viewed in terms of a percentage.
For example, perhaps Peter's faith was strong most or 90% of the time, but weak at least three times when he denied knowing Christ.

So, we probably need to employ both-and thinking to say that faith has both a qualitative (kerygmatic) aspect
that either accepts Jesus as Lord (is sufficient to save) or doesn't (misses the mark) and a quantitative (didachaic) aspect
that increases as/correlates with growing toward moral maturity, as in Mark 9:24, Rom. 14:1-2, 1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:14-15 and Heb. 6:1-3.

Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in and only Jesus Christ is the OBJECT of saving faith. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6)

If faith that saves must be strong 100% of the time in regard to maturity, then nobody would be saved. When Judas betrayed Jesus and He was arrested, all of the remaining disciples were said to fall away (Matthew 26:31, 56) but this was only temporary. When Peter denied knowing Christ 3 times, he had a weak moment because he was very afraid. Who's to say we would have done any better in that situation. Now this doesn't mean that Peter no longer believed in Jesus as being the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16; John 20:31) and ended up in hell. One may fully trust in Jesus Christ for salvation but not always fully trust in Jesus Christ just to get them through a tough day at work or to get them through a tragic situation. This is where faith grows stronger over time as we become more mature in Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, we read - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

These men needed to grow in their faith in regard to maturity but were still considered babes in Christ and not lost men because of their faith in Christ for salvation/believing the gospel.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sad you do not see synonyms or genuine "in other words".

Well if you mean "genuine" as the faith that is correctly placed then yes I would agree, if you mean genuine as a descriptor of faith in some qualitative or quantitative way than I think it is a redundant descriptor.

Like I stated, a person can either believe in the offer of the free gift of salvation or not, there is no halfway belief in the veracity of the offer.

 

[HeIsHere]

A Christian must endure not by strength, but by the Spirit working through faith, producing love. This is not a checklist—it’s a single reality: to trust Jesus is to become love.

Yes for a strong fellowship/walk with God, this is not to maintain justification.

 

[HeIsHere]

I will explain that Jesus died to set us free from God's wrath and anyone who returns to the behaviour.
That they were controlled by before they were set free; will again place themselves under God's wrath.

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away
from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
“A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Do you deny that a dog can RETURN to it's own vomit after knowing the way of righteousness?

Sometimes they do, ever worked with people who have addictions?
Do you think they will loose salvation because of the weakness of the flesh?

I would say it is a weak god who could not come up with a plan which was 100% secure.

Justified is Justified.

 

[studier]

So then, saving faith is genuine faith, which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness, such that one follows His guidance, even if tentatively at first..

Insincere faith could also be genuine faith of 60%, but me pretending and professing to have a faith of 90-100% in order to gain praise and/or promotion and/or profit within my in group.

I have similar concerns to @DavidLamb about this. I see it as real/genuine or not so. The genuine can be weak, but still genuine. Pretense is pretense and is false.

 

[HeIsHere]

I wonder how we can measure faith in terms of percentages. Are you saying that to be saved, we need faith which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness? How would you know if your faith was 49% (unsaved) or 51% (saved)? Do you have any bible passages that give even the slightest hint of measuring faith in percentage terms?

Or have I somehow totally misunderstood what you meant? If so, I apologise.

I think he is pointing out the term "genuine" as a descriptor cannot really be applied to the word "faith."

Maybe "right" faith would be a better descriptor.

 

[GWH]

Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in and only Jesus Christ is the OBJECT of saving faith. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6)

If faith that saves must be strong 100% of the time in regard to maturity, then nobody would be saved. When Judas betrayed Jesus and He was arrested, all of the remaining disciples were said to fall away (Matthew 26:31, 56) but this was only temporary. When Peter denied knowing Christ 3 times, he had a weak moment because he was very afraid. Who's to say we would have done any better in that situation. Now this doesn't mean that Peter no longer believed in Jesus as being the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16; John 20:31) and ended up in hell. One may fully trust in Jesus Christ for salvation but not always fully trust in Jesus Christ just to get them through a tough day at work or to get them through a tragic situation. This is where faith grows stronger over time as we become more mature in Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, we read - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

These men needed to grow in their faith in regard to maturity but were still considered babes in Christ and not lost men because of their faith in Christ for salvation/believing the gospel.

You make a good point about the Object of faith determining whether it i salvific,
but do not conflate salvation (kerygma) with maturation (didache), which is what Peter's weak moments were.
Yes, weak or immature does not mean lost.

 

[GWH]

Well if you mean "genuine" as the faith that is correctly placed then yes I would agree, if you mean genuine as a descriptor of faith in some qualitative or quantitative way than I think it is a redundant descriptor.

Like I stated, a person can either believe in the offer of the free gift of salvation or not, there is no halfway belief in the veracity of the offer.

Yes, I do mean "correctly placed" by genuine in those passages:

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter required genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

However, genuine is not a "redundant descriptor", because it takes greater faith (albeit misplaced) to be an atheist.

 

[Magenta]

Sometimes they do, ever worked with people who have addictions?
Do you think they will loose salvation because of the weakness of the flesh?

I would say it is a weak god who could not come up with a plan which was 100% secure.

Justified is Justified.

That is precisely why it is not the fleshly natural unregenerated man who comes to believe.

The natural man is a slave (addicted) to sin and a lover of darkness, after all... suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

That person can neither receive nor comprehend the Spiritual things of God, and the gospel message is foolishness to him.

 

[studier]

I don't think Jesus is saying in v. 65 that God grants men to Jesus. I think He is saying that God grants to men the ability to come to Jesus. God uses various means to draw the attention of even sceptics and Jesus-haters and God-haters to Jesus, so that they are held accountable for what they then choose to do with Him. We are told that Jesus had no form or comeliness that we should desire Him Isa 53:2 .
Jesus in His human appearance was so ordinary and nondescript and goody-two-shoes that no one would take any notice of him apart from the works and words that the Father chose to do and say through Jesus. These are what drew people to come to Him to hear Him and closely examine Him. And closely examining Him they could find no genuine fault in Him, and were therefore accountable for rejecting or accepting Him and His teaching. I believe this is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless it is give to Him by My Father to do so." Jhn 6:65 And "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." Jhn 6:44
I don't assume this "coming" is referring to coming to faith in Jesus, but rather coming to Jesus to inspect and evaluate Him and His claims.

John6:64-65? Some men don't believe < "and He was saying, for this reason I have told you [all] that no man is able to come toward Me, unless it has been given to him from My Father". So, you're saying:

• The Father draws all men - All are given ability to come
  • Some choose not to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and do believe
• So, Jesus is pointing out personal responsibility

I had limited time earlier, so a bit of follow up:

I agree that the wording of 6:44-45 speaks of God giving to men the ability to come to Jesus. Then we see verses like the following (staying in GJohn):

NKJ John 6:37 "All (every thing) that the Father gives Me will come to Me,

and the one (man) who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.​

NKJ John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me,

that of all [every thing] He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

NKJ John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me,

that everyone (every man) who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."​

NKJ John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

NKJ John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

NKJ John 17:7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

NKJ John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

NKJ John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

NKJ John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So, it's obvious that God gives [metaphorical] sheep, men and things to Jesus.

• Do you think the neuter in 6:37 & 39 includes men (neuters can speak of groups)?
• When Jesus in John6:65 speaks of God giving men the ability to come to Jesus, since God draws and gives ability to come, do you think in effect God has also given believing men to Jesus?
  • Or do you see the giving of sheep and men entirely different or separate from this?
  • IOW, where and when does God's giving of sheep and men to Jesus take place?

 

[studier]

Yes, I do mean "correctly placed" by genuine in those passages:

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter required genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

However, genuine is not a "redundant descriptor", because it takes greater faith (albeit misplaced) to be an atheist.

Aren't you two negating what Paul says to Timothy re: genuine Faith (1Tim1:5; 2Tim1:5)? He literally uses a word that means genuine - without pretense - without play-acting. Why would he use such an adjective if it were not meaningful? If his use is meaningful, then it is not redundant.

So, it doesn't seem to me to be just about the object of Genuine Faith:

• We genuinely believe in Jesus Christ
  • Which begins weak and grows strong
• Or we pretend to believe in Jesus Christ
• Or we do not believe in Jesus Christ

 

[PaulThomson]

John6:64-65? Some men don't believe < "and He was saying, for this reason I have told you [all] that no man is able to come toward Me, unless it has been given to him from My Father". So, you're saying:

• The Father draws all men - All are given ability to come
  • Some choose not to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and don't believe
  • Some choose to come and do believe
• So, Jesus is pointing out personal responsibility

I don't know if we could draw the conclusion from this particular verse that the Father draws all men. It does say that whoever comes to investigate Jesus, has been granted by the Father to come to Jesus.
Jesus could be saying. Some of you don't believe., in fact some of you hate Me... .. and yet here you are. Why are you putting in all that effort and time to get here, if you don't believe? Because God is drawing you here, by means of the words and deeds He is doing through me. But the same holds true even for the believers. No one, believer or unbeliever, would bother coming to investigate Me and believe in Me, unless it was given to them to do so by my Father. And He provides that opportunity to come to Me by dangling from Me the words and deeds that pique your interest, whether negatively or positively.

God has granted you to come and investigate me. Why has He done that. Because He wants to be reconciled to you, yes you, and you, all of you, and you are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. So listen and watch with an open mind and a willingness to taste the evidence for authenticity. So, rather than pointing out personal responsibility in this verse, maybe he is pointing out the privilege God has afforded them hoping to inspire gratitude and reverence..

If the lexicon had not said "sincere" as a choice of translation, or if it is not considering "sincere" as having the etymology or definition you are using, then is there the same problem with the Greek word? Here are 3 lexicons (highlighting is mine) and we can see in the Greek that it goes back to Greek drama and "play-acting" - the hypocrite - and it mainly means "pretense" which is also an English definition for "sincere".

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] ἀνυπόκριτος​

• ἀνυπόκριτος, ον (s. ὑποκρίτης; schol. on Aristoph., Av. 798; Iambl., Vi. Pyth. §69, 188 αἰδώς; Ps.-Demetr., De Eloc. 194; Wsd 5:18; 18:15) pert. to being without pretense, genuine, sincere, lit. ‘without play-acting’ ἀγάπη (ApcSed 1:4) Ro 12:9; 2 Cor 6:6. φιλαδελφία 1 Pt 1:22. πίστις 1 Ti 1:5; 2 Ti 1:5. σοφία Js 3:17.—DELG s.v. κρίνω. M-M. TW. Spicq.​

__________________________________​

Liddell-Scott, Greek Lexicon (Abridged)​

​

[LS] ἀνυπόκριτος​

ἀν-υπόκρι²τος, ον, (ὑποκρίνομαι) without dissimulation, N.T.​

__________________________________​

Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT​

​

[LN] ἀνυπόκριτος ον genuine 73.8​

Isn't pretend faith also false faith - pretending to believe something?

A percentage of hypocrisy can be added to genuine faith. The genuine faith remains genuine, but the hypocrisy created a false impression to others of the quantity of genuine faith. The pretend portion is false, but it does not necessarily make all of the faith false.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, I do mean "correctly placed" by genuine in those passages:

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter required genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

However, genuine is not a "redundant descriptor", because it takes greater faith (albeit misplaced) to be an atheist.

Faith is either correctly placed or it is not.

A person cannot place a "false faith" in Jesus.
That just does not make sense.

 

[Smoke]

That is precisely why it is not the fleshly natural unregenerated man who comes to believe.

The natural man is a slave (addicted) to sin and a lover of darkness, after all... suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

That person can neither receive nor comprehend the Spiritual things of God, and the gospel message is foolishness to him.

Do you believe being a "natural man" is binary or on a spectrum? Can a Christian, especially a newly converted one, be addicted to their sin but understand, on a spiritual level, the need to forsake it? Can someone be a spiritual man/woman who struggles from the default settings of being a natural man/woman? I am reading this thread and I'm asking myself question after question because I want to challenge and test what I believe... sorry if this feels like an interrogation.

 

[studier]

I don't know if we could draw the conclusion from this particular verse that the Father draws all men. It does say that whoever comes to investigate Jesus, has been granted by the Father to come to Jesus.

Isn't "investigate" interpretive? I know we've dealt with this in the past, but it's been a while. As I recall the discussion was re: coming paralleling believing:

"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:45 NKJ)

• Doesn't it seem the investigation was prior to the coming? If it was just "heard" it might be weaker, but "learned" seems a stronger precursor to come. Also, the quote from Isaiah uses an adjective "learned [men] of God" (God's learned [men]) and in Isaiah it speaks of "your sons".

Jesus could be saying. Some of you don't believe., in fact some of you hate Me... .. and yet here you are. Why are you putting in all that effort and time to get here, if you don't believe? Because God is drawing you here, by means of the words and deeds He is doing through me. But the same holds true even for the believers. No one, believer or unbeliever, would bother coming to investigate Me and believe in Me, unless it was given to them to do so by my Father. And He provides that opportunity to come to Me by dangling from Me the words and deeds that pique your interest, whether negatively or positively.

God has granted you to come and investigate me. Why has He done that. Because He wants to be reconciled to you, yes you, and you, all of you, and you are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. So listen and watch with an open mind and a willingness to taste the evidence for authenticity. So, rather than pointing out personal responsibility in this verse, maybe he is pointing out the privilege God has afforded them hoping to inspire gratitude and reverence..

I'll have to look more intently once again at this investigation concept. I'm not fully persuaded.

The giving men to Jesus is more on my mind but this is certainly a part of it.

A percentage of hypocrisy can be added to genuine faith. The genuine faith remains genuine, but the hypocrisy created a false impression to others of the quantity of genuine faith. The pretend portion is false, but it does not necessarily make all of the faith false.

Granted we can play-act even with Genuine Faith, but is this what Paul is speaking of in Timothy, or is he simply saying there is Genuine and thus not genuine Faith?

Also, did you ever answer me re: Luke8:13 - re: Genuine Faith, what is "believe for a time...and fall away"?

 

[studier]

A person cannot place a "false faith" in Jesus.
That just does not make sense.

Someone cannot pretend to believe in Jesus?

 

[HeIsHere]

Someone cannot pretend to believe in Jesus?

Not what I stated.

Can you place your trust in a friend when you do not trust them?