At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[studier]

New Zealand. We're returning there in June this year. We've bought a two acre orchard that needs rehabilitation after a few years of neglect. An opportunity came our way ten years ago to transplant ourselves into Indian soil and live out our faith there., rather than in NZ. There was a paid teaching position for my wife, so we did not need financial support from any church to move here and to live here.

Very interesting, with respect. Safe travels to you both. 2ac in NZ sounds nice even though some work.

 

[Mem]

I think sometimes the way we word things here in the forum and mean them ….isnt taken how we meant them sometimes lol probably because of the way we word them especially if “ we “ means me haha

God bless brother .

I do rarely use "we" to mean 'you' specifically, but when I do use it, it always includes me.

 

[Jimbone]

I think I've answered this in my just prior post. If not, then please let me know.



I agree. The way I read GJohn and understand the basic meaning of repentance, it's indicated and included throughout GJohn. The theory that's it's not there because it's unnecessary for Faith and salvation IMO reveals how far some will go to strip Faith of all meaning in the farthest swing of the pendulum to distance from "works salvation".

I have a question for you that I'm very curious of what your answer would be. Do we even have to know we are repenting when it's happening? I ask what you think because I didn't. At the time God granted my repentance I basically saw God/Jesus/Christianity as a useless endeavor. I thought I'd been saved for years before this, so I'd turned my back on (a false) Christianity, but that left me in a position where I was not seeking God at all when He brought me to my knees and showed me how futile "my way" truly was.

This is also why I say He granted me repentance, not just because I'm repeating scripture, I say it because when I was being granted repentance, I had no clue what was going on. This is also why I always go so hard against the idea that "free will" plays any part in salvation.

Sorry about that, I just jumped to another paragraph because I was NOT trying to start the whole freewill thing here. I was just wondering what you thought about my first question. Do you think we have to know we are repenting in order to be saved?

 

[studier]

I have a question for you that I'm very curious of what your answer would be. Do we even have to know we are repenting when it's happening? I ask what you think because I didn't. At the time God granted my repentance I basically saw God/Jesus/Christianity as a useless endeavor. I thought I'd been saved for years before this, so I'd turned my back on (a false) Christianity, but that left me in a position where I was not seeking God at all when He brought me to my knees and showed me how futile "my way" truly was.

This is also why I say He granted me repentance, not just because I'm repeating scripture, I say it because when I was being granted repentance, I had no clue what was going on. This is also why I always go so hard against the idea that "free will" plays any part in salvation.

Sorry about that, I just jumped to another paragraph because I was NOT trying to start the whole freewill thing here. I was just wondering what you thought about my first question. Do you think we have to know we are repenting in order to be saved?

To keep it simple, no I don't think we have to know about repentance to repent.

Keeping with the basics of changing the mind, whether or not we know changing the mind is to repent, doesn't really matter. If we've changed our mind about Christ, then we've repented about Christ whether we know the word repent or not.

Similarly, since God has commanded men to believe in His Son, when men believe in His Son, they have obeyed God whether they know it or not. They've also repented about Christ and towards God re: Christ, whether they know it or not.

I disagree with you about human volition.

 

[Jimbone]

To keep it simple, no I don't think we have to know about repentance to repent.

Keeping with the basics of changing the mind, whether or not we know changing the mind is to repent, doesn't really matter. If we've changed our mind about Christ, then we've repented about Christ whether we know the word repent or not.

Similarly, since God has commanded men to believe in His Son, when men believe in His Son, they have obeyed God whether they know it or not. They've also repented about Christ and towards God re: Christ, whether they know it or not.

I disagree with you about human volition.

I know you do, but to be fair I don't even think you know what I mean when I say we don't have free will. Does this mean I think we don't have will or agency at all? Absolutely not, I believe we have a will, I believe our choices are very important. What those on your side of the debate seem to think I mean when I say no freewill, is that we don't have any choice full stop. That we are all just robots. That is not what any of us who say there is no freewill mean. All I'm saying is what Jesus said, those that sin are SLAVES of sin, Not free. Paul goes on to tell us those born of the Spirit are SLAVES of righteousness leading to obedience, not free. Those are the only two conditions or "natures" we as human beings can have. So, no matter if we are in sin or of the Spirit there is one thing that holds true, our will is not "FREE". It is enslaved to our natures. That is all I mean when I say that. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with having a will and everything to do with that will being a slave no matter what your spiritual status is.

I disagree with you thinking that God has to wait on us to come to Him. Without Him drawing us in, we'd NEVER even walk His way. The way you seem to think gives man reason to boast in salvation. The best way to illustrate this is the person who is drowning in the water and can't swim. God is the lifeguard. You believe that He throws in the lifesaver, but "you" have to grab it. See I believe we are face down unconscious and God comes in and carries us to safety. That's the difference. You believe we have something to boast about and deserve glory for. After all you'd be lost if "YOU" wouldn't hadn't grabbed. I believe this is where you are wrong and I'm not. God gets ALL the glory in my view.

 

[mailmandan]

What gets me through my day is reading and sticking with Scripture - actually learning to understand and live in Christ in Spirit in accordance with the Word of God and not having people rewrite it and explain it away.

I don't rewrite scripture and explain it away. I read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Your point was to make your point and skip over the commands and relabel and recategorize the verses of Scripture. This is very simply called eisegesis. You can wrangle around this as much as you want but it's very clear that's what you did. You literally rewrote the verses and negated the imperatives.

That is not what I did, and I don't appreciate your slander. You seem more interested in an indictment than you do in reasoning together through the scriptures.

My clear ask was working with you to have you explain how you categorize the COMMANDS that are IN SCRIPTURE. You stripped the commands and categorized the explanatory portion of each verse. You stripped what IS prescriptive, ignored it, and relabeled the verses as descriptive. So, you made prescriptive commands for Christians to believe and obey into something that just describes things about Christians.

Those commands were not prescriptive in order to obtain salvation. Those commands were not prescriptive passages about believing in/placing faith in Jesus unto salvation and those verses contrasted believers (the one who practices righteousness is righteous) with unbelievers (the one who practices sin is of the devil) again, believers (everyone who loves is born of God and knows God) with unbelievers (he who does not love does not know God). See the contrast?

When this "prescriptive" and "descriptive" concept was brought into discussion, @Pilgrimshope essentially mentioned how they were a diversion (my word). I agreed but did want to see you play out the concept, which you graciously did. Thanks for doing so. It confirms my concern.

Your concern is off base.

This classifying technique is mostly diversionary. It simply goes right along with a version of faith alone theology that sees "works-salvation" at every turn of a phrase, even if it's right from Scripture (aka exegesis).

Works salvation is a false gospel that is not taught in scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Some of us are not afraid of God's commands. We relish them along with every word He's graciously given us. They are rules and instruction from God for Life under Grace in Christ in Spirit. If He didn't want them written as commands, there are plenty of other ways to write them in the Greek language. Some just don't seem to understand absolute authority. The first Adam is gone. The second Adam says this:

I'm not afraid of God's commands and I relish them as well. Maybe you need to come down off your high horse and stop judging. I understand absolute authority and I also understand God's will for us in order to become saved (John 6:40) and God's will for us in His commands AFTER we have been saved (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) and do not conflate the two.

Luke 6:46-49 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? 47 "Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 "He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Descriptive of believers/children of God. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

49 "But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great."

Descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil.

Matt7:22-29 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (which is unrighteousness, which is sin, which is ultimately and just very simply, disobedience to God and thus unbelief in God). 24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

In context Jesus is addressing false prophets. (see vs. 15) Jesus never knew these many people (vs. 23) which means they were never saved. They trusted in their works for salvation (vs. 22) and not in Jesus Christ alone. They lacked the righteousness of God which is by faith and their sin remains. Hence, you who practice lawlessness!

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses. Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 may have been "outwardly" doing things that the righteous may do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ - John 17:3) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

Luke19:27

'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign/exercise authority over them, and slay them before me.'"

What a mess.

Descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil. What a mess indeed!

 

[studier]

I know you do, but to be fair I don't even think you know what I mean when I say we don't have free will. Does this mean I think we don't have will or agency at all? Absolutely not, I believe we have a will, I believe our choices are very important. What those on your side of the debate seem to think I mean when I say no freewill, is that we don't have any choice full stop. That we are all just robots. That is not what any of us who say there is no freewill mean. All I'm saying is what Jesus said, those that sin are SLAVES of sin, Not free. Paul goes on to tell us those born of the Spirit are SLAVES of righteousness leading to obedience, not free. Those are the only two conditions or "natures" we as human beings can have. So, no matter if we are in sin or of the Spirit there is one thing that holds true, our will is not "FREE". It is enslaved to our natures. That is all I mean when I say that. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with having a will and everything to do with that will being a slave no matter what your spiritual status is.

I disagree with you thinking that God has to wait on us to come to Him. Without Him drawing us in, we'd NEVER even walk His way. The way you seem to think gives man reason to boast in salvation. The best way to illustrate this is the person who is drowning in the water and can't swim. God is the lifeguard. You believe that He throws in the lifesaver, but "you" have to grab it. See I believe we are face down unconscious and God comes in and carries us to safety. That's the difference. You believe we have something to boast about and deserve glory for. After all you'd be lost if "YOU" wouldn't hadn't grabbed. I believe this is where you are wrong and I'm not. God gets ALL the glory in my view.

The reason I don't normally speak of "free will" is because it carries a lot of philosophical baggage that I don't care to get caught up in. The Text also speaks of freedom in various ways, so this too needs to be taken into account when considering the slaves of righteousness concepts. Additionally, our volition is being commanded in whatever state including as slaves of righteousness, so as you say, there is no robotic condition. Again, I don't think you've seen me speak of "free will" and if you have it's either for a purpose, laziness, or a mistake.

I don't think I said God needs to wait for us to come to Him. You're inserting your interpretations of what I think, but I don't think we have anything to boast about. I understand His drawing and it's in the context of God teaching and men hearing and learning then believing. This isn't something corpses do, so the theory needs to give the corpse life before it can hear and learn. It doesn't work for me as I read Scripture.

If I take your life-preserver illustration, at quick glance I do think it's pretty decent and it seems familiar, so it's probably not unique to you.

Yes, I do think we are still functional enough to grab the gifted preserver and to make a choice to do so. No, I wouldn't call grabbing the gift "work" that would create a debt for the one who threw it, nor would I boast that I still had enough function to grab it or wanted to. I don't think God considers the grab and the will to live as works either. Afterward, I'd probably think I owed my life and everything I had to the one who saved me.

On the other hand, your side is about the same as the TULIP group but maybe a bit better; at least your illustration does not necessarily make you a corpse. Maybe you actually need resuscitation, so you are Calvinistic. In my view if you die, you had your chance like all men. If you're resuscitated or brought back to consciousness, you still need to make a choice because you're still in a dead life (assuming you're an unsaved floater) and have been given time to do so. Calling that agency vs. free will is fine with me.

 

[Lamar]

You misunderstand the New Testament.

Have a look at the following verses just from John as an example.

Please notice the word, "believe", in each verse.

John 1:7
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:50
Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.”

John 2:11
What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 2:23
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

John 3:15
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4:21
“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 4:39
Many Samaritans Believe
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”

John 4:41
And because of his words many more became believers.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 4:48
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

John 4:53
Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” So he and his whole household believed.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:38
nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

John 5:44
How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

John 5:47
But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:30
So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.


John 6:36
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:64
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

John 6:69
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

John 7:5
For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

John 7:31
Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?”

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:48
“Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

John 8:30
Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

John 8:31
Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents are To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said,
“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

John 8:45
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

John 9:18
They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents.

John 9:35
Spiritual Blindness
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

John 10:42
And in that place many believed in Jesus.

John 11:15
and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Are you asserting that we need to believe in order to be redeemed or that we need to believe alone in order to be redeemed?

Not sure which way you are going with this.

 

[Lamar]

What gets me through my day is reading and sticking with Scripture - actually learning to understand and live in Christ in Spirit in accordance with the Word of God and not having people rewrite it and explain it away.

Your point was to make your point and skip over the commands and relabel and recategorize the verses of Scripture. This is very simply called eisegesis. You can wrangle around this as much as you want but it's very clear that's what you did. You literally rewrote the verses and negated the imperatives.

My clear ask was working with you to have you explain how you categorize the COMMANDS that are IN SCRIPTURE. You stripped the commands and categorized the explanatory portion of each verse. You stripped what IS prescriptive, ignored it, and relabeled the verses as descriptive. So, you made prescriptive commands for Christians to believe and obey into something that just describes things about Christians.

When this "prescriptive" and "descriptive" concept was brought into discussion, @Pilgrimshope essentially mentioned how they were a diversion (my word). I agreed but did want to see you play out the concept, which you graciously did. Thanks for doing so. It confirms my concern.

This classifying technique is mostly diversionary. It simply goes right along with a version of faith alone theology that sees "works-salvation" at every turn of a phrase, even if it's right from Scripture (aka exegesis).

Some of us are not afraid of God's commands. We relish them along with every word He's graciously given us. They are rules and instruction from God for Life under Grace in Christ in Spirit. If He didn't want them written as commands, there are plenty of other ways to write them in the Greek language. Some just don't seem to understand absolute authority. The first Adam is gone. The second Adam says this:

Luke 6:46-49 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? 47 "Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 "He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 "But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great."

Matt7:22-29 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (which is unrighteousness, which is sin, which is ultimately and just very simply, disobedience to God and thus unbelief in God). 24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Luke19:27 'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign/exercise authority over them, and slay them before me.'"

What a mess.

You have described faith alone regeneration theology quite well. I too find their reasoning absurd.

This is classic:

We relish them along with every word He's graciously given us. They are rules and instruction from God for Life under Grace in Christ in Spirit. If He didn't want them written as commands, there are plenty of other ways to write them in the Greek language.

If you don't mind, I may use this thought myself.

 

[sawdust]

I know you do, but to be fair I don't even think you know what I mean when I say we don't have free will. Does this mean I think we don't have will or agency at all? Absolutely not, I believe we have a will, I believe our choices are very important. What those on your side of the debate seem to think I mean when I say no freewill, is that we don't have any choice full stop. That we are all just robots. That is not what any of us who say there is no freewill mean. All I'm saying is what Jesus said, those that sin are SLAVES of sin, Not free. Paul goes on to tell us those born of the Spirit are SLAVES of righteousness leading to obedience, not free. Those are the only two conditions or "natures" we as human beings can have. So, no matter if we are in sin or of the Spirit there is one thing that holds true, our will is not "FREE". It is enslaved to our natures. That is all I mean when I say that. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with having a will and everything to do with that will being a slave no matter what your spiritual status is.

I disagree with you thinking that God has to wait on us to come to Him. Without Him drawing us in, we'd NEVER even walk His way. The way you seem to think gives man reason to boast in salvation. The best way to illustrate this is the person who is drowning in the water and can't swim. God is the lifeguard. You believe that He throws in the lifesaver, but "you" have to grab it. See I believe we are face down unconscious and God comes in and carries us to safety. That's the difference. You believe we have something to boast about and deserve glory for. After all you'd be lost if "YOU" wouldn't hadn't grabbed. I believe this is where you are wrong and I'm not. God gets ALL the glory in my view.

Pity He doesn't grab all the other floaters face down in the water especially seeing He wants all men to be saved. Guess He doesn't want it bad enough?

 

[mailmandan]

Faith plus obedience, faith plus works, faith plus fruit, faith plus love?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
and not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

That is the foundation of our faith, Christ alone.

Now on another topic; the Christian life; i.e., works, fruit, love, prayer, fellowship, etc.

The Christian life is powered by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is given when you believe.

So what is the relationship between faith and works?

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Christ alone. Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28) ✝️

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Lamar]

I disagree with you thinking that God has to wait on us to come to Him. Without Him drawing us in, we'd NEVER even walk His way.

The best way to describe this is the Parable of the two sons. The younger son was both lost and dead to His father. It took the son walking towards His father for him to be redeemed by his Father. The son did not "earn" his redemption, it was freely given to him by the grace of His father. But return on his own he must.

Remember, Jesus knocks but we open the door.

I disagree with you thinking that God has to wait on us to come to Him

The Father most certainly waited for His son to come to Him.

 

[Inquisitor]

“between (by) grace and (though faith) works. “

Salvation by grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think the disconnect of ideas is how we understand Gods grace and where to find it tangibly . And where faith comes from as well

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i fully agree we’re saved by grace through faith ….and that it comes from God originates from him and is offered freely like a gift I agree with that . We are understanding what “ Grace “ and what “ Faith “ means , differently is where I think the disconnect is

So what I’m doing is this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then I’m also looking at what else is taught about faith in order to understand biblically more of what “ faith “ means like this

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭

same then also with looking and studying for what the Bible says Gods grace that brings salvation should be doing and teaching us

we’re saved by grace …
“grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

…who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak”

see becoming zealous of and doing good works is part of grace also where we find grace and what it teaches there repentance and doing good is in the gospel

“And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just as faith comes also from hearing the word of God …..

i think we are defining terms differently is my point that happens a lot here no offense or insult meant or anything

What you said is the biblical, apostolic, revelation of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe by grace through faith, fact.

But the biblical narrative never stops there.

Without holiness you will not see God.

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Can you see the demarkation line that exists in the N.T.?

Saved by grace through faith and God help you if you do not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have a question for you that I'm very curious of what your answer would be. Do we even have to know we are repenting when it's happening? I ask what you think because I didn't. At the time God granted my repentance I basically saw God/Jesus/Christianity as a useless endeavor. I thought I'd been saved for years before this, so I'd turned my back on (a false) Christianity, but that left me in a position where I was not seeking God at all when He brought me to my knees and showed me how futile "my way" truly was.

This is also why I say He granted me repentance, not just because I'm repeating scripture, I say it because when I was being granted repentance, I had no clue what was going on. This is also why I always go so hard against the idea that "free will" plays any part in salvation.

Sorry about that, I just jumped to another paragraph because I was NOT trying to start the whole freewill thing here. I was just wondering what you thought about my first question. Do you think we have to know we are repenting in order to be saved?

There is an interaction between being led by the Holy Spirit and purposely drawing near to Jesus.

Sometimes you are gifted with an insight into some aspect of Christianity.

And at other times you grind through the Christian life following Jesus.

What you sow you reap in other words!

 

[Inquisitor]

Pity He doesn't grab all the other floaters face down in the water especially seeing He wants all men to be saved. Guess He doesn't want it bad enough?

What he is really saying is God does not love everyone, equally.

That is the bottom line; God does not want everyone to be saved.

Your correct.

 

[studier]

What he is really saying is God does not love everyone, equally.

That is the bottom line; God does not want everyone to be saved.

Your correct.

That is most definitely what some are saying and some delete the love "equally" and simply say God hates the non-elect. There are 12k+ posts on another thread many of them saying just that.

 

[studier]

And at other times you grind through the Christian life following Jesus.

That's an interesting statement. Some say we just float through the Christian Life as if we're on some inner-tube sipping drinks in the sun in beautiful clear water being taken to our destination. Nothing to do, just float and enjoy...

 

[Cameron143]

That's an interesting statement. Some say we just float through the Christian Life as if we're on some inner-tube sipping drinks in the sun in beautiful clear water being taken to our destination. Nothing to do, just float and enjoy...

Do you have names?

 

[studier]

Do you have names?

I barely remember my name. But I do recall the gist of discussions. Maybe you're one on the tubes. Did you think I was talking about you?

 

[Inquisitor]

Meaning AI is reading English translations and compiling the thinking of men?

If you want AI to read the scripture in another way then specify that in the question.

If you only want to use a Greek N.T. then type; "Using only the Greek N.T."

You can also type; "Use the text (N.T) only"

That way creeds, theology, church doctrine, etc; are excluded.