Saved by faith alone?

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Dec 18, 2021
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Did Abraham hear how Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day? Can having faith in another message bring salvation?
Did God talk to abraham?

As you said, faith comes by hearing and hearing buy the word.

do Abraham hear the words of God?
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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Jesus had at least two conversations with Abraham. Two off the top of my head. Im sure there are more. Once when Sara was told she would concieve and one before Sodom was destroyed.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Did God talk to abraham?

As you said, faith comes by hearing and hearing buy the word.

do Abraham hear the words of God?
God talked to many of the OT saints. See Hebrews 11. But none of them believed on the cross of Jesus because it was not made known until after it occurred.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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you have two gospels then.

You also call Paul a liar when he said we are saved by this same faith in God Abraham had

but we knew this (those who know you)

so will let you go again.
Only one true gospel unto salvation. You are arguing for two gospels. I believe that the only gospel unto salvation is the message of the cross...how Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. Having faith in anything else cannot bring about eternal salvation.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Only one true gospel unto salvation. You are arguing for two gospels. I believe that the only gospel unto salvation is the message of the cross...how Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. Having faith in anything else cannot bring about eternal salvation.
Then no one is saved from the OT.

come on man.

listen to yourself
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Paul was using Abraham as a type, a picture of what faith is about. As Abraham believed God at his word, we too need to believe God at his word.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

The gospel was given to abraham,

Through you seed (we know as Christ) will every nation be blessed..

Abraham just did not know his name.

You have some weird doctrines my friend
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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Agree, but Abraham's works justified himself before God.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

After the cross, the believer is not justified by works, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
If you carefully examine the Book of James you clearly will understand that he's not placing the emphasis of works before faith. He's stating that because if you have Faith you will do works. He's saying your Faith is why you will do works.

Now, to the extreme side of what he is saying. Works proves you have Faith. So if you say I have Faith but you never do anything that proves that you have Faith then there's no proof of your Faith. Because anyone who truly has Faith will be doing works.

Those are the two sides to what James is stating.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,607
3,800
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If you carefully examine the Book of James you clearly will understand that he's not placing the emphasis of works before faith. He's stating that because if you have Faith you will do works. He's saying your Faith is why you will do works.

Now, to the extreme side of what he is saying. Works proves you have Faith. So if you say I have Faith but you never do anything that proves that you have Faith then there's no proof of your Faith. Because anyone who truly has Faith will be doing works.

Those are the two sides to what James is stating.
To whom is James written? Remember, James is answering the question: Can faith save him?

Saved people should be doing works, but not always. Some have zero discipleship, no bible, no church, nothing...
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,007
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To whom is James written? Remember, James is answering the question: Can faith save him?

Saved people should be doing works, but not always. Some have zero discipleship, no bible, no church, nothing...
I know who James is writing to but the Inspiration from the Holy Spirit of God is for ALL SAVED PEOPLE, not just the Jews.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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eternal security is conditional. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security. "If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Your quotes are out of alignment.

1 John 1:7. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:24. "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 10:38. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch."
Hebrews 10:38 - Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

John 15:6. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 8:51. "If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
John 8:51 - Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.

Romans 11:22. "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall."
Romans 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

2 Peter 1:10. "For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end."
2 Peter 1:10 - Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Hebrews 3:14. "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us."
Hebrews 3:14 - For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV). "If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
2 Timothy 2:12 - If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Hebrews 10:26. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

1 John 2:15. "Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you."
1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 15:14. "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.
John 15:14 - Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

IF, you follow these conditions you will have eternal life.
"If" is a conditional statement which draws a contrast between children of God and children of the devil. John here draws a contrast using descriptive language between children of God and children of the devil.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil). In 1 John 2:9, John goes on to say - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil)

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (descriptive of believers/children of God) Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light and ONLY believers/children of God are in the light. (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness and hates his brother is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. *Hermeneutics.

So, children of the devil walk in darkness and not in the light and children of God walk in the light and not in darkness. IF confirms these two separate positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is works-righteousness.

John is not describing two separate camps of believers/children of God in which one camp of believers walks in the light and the other camp of believers does not walk in the light and one camp of believers practice righteousness and love their brother and the other camp does not practice righteousness and hates their brother, as you would suppose.