A call for unity and love
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I don't think he sees it that way II was hoping he would realize it on his own but he is not self aware I think. He may not have intentionally done so at leasdt not in his mind but yes it was divisive
I think so, although she never posted quotes of my offenses or explained how her belief in the "T" does not imply the rest (ULIP).
Re her claim that I do not support my beliefs with Scripture, you have seen on this thread (#68) that is untrue.
Re her saying "if you post actual Scripture which supports your position and they don't like it, they simply call you...": That is also obviously untrue for those paying attention. Here are three Scriptures I discussed systematically/in context:
I. 1 Corinthians 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:
1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.
1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.
1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.
1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).
1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.
1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).
II. Jeremiah 17:9a,”The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” The immediate context includes:
Jer. 17:5, “Cursed is the one who trusts in man… and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”
Jer. 17:7, “But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him.”
Jer. 17:10, “I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, “You are always righteous, O Lord… you see me and test my thoughts about you…
This is what the Lord says… if the wicked learn well the ways of my people… then they will be established among my people.”
Jer. 14:10, “This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander…
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now … punish them for their sins.”
Jer. 18:8-11, “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned…
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it…
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you.”
III. Deuteronomy 29:4, “To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.”
The pertinent pericope seems to begin with Deut. 28:1 & 15, “If you fully obey the Lord your God… God will set you high above all the nations on earth… However, if you do not obey the Lord your God… all these curses will come upon you.” This verse implies that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.
Then we have the verse cited, which sounds like God prevented the Israelites from obeying Him.
But then we come to Deut. 29:9, “Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do.” This seems to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.
And finally we arrive at the clearest statement of what Moses meant in Deut. 30:19b-20a, “I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God.” This obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW.
Thus, for her to shake dust off is So Yesterday. LIC, GWH
Ok well it is clear that you and @Magenta has some quarrels that need to be resolved but this is not the place for it, and she showed me the post you made that seems to be the root cause of this strife and I can see how it was not right the way you spoke to her
She is not a calvinist and she does not follow Tulip either I have known her for many years I know her very well
I think Calvin taught more than TULIP, which is why I am careful to say that it is only TULIP that is problematic,
because its view that God hates the part of humanity He does not elect borders on blasphemy given the "7 Pearls".
Regarding Mag, she strongly advocates the T, so I do not now how you know she does not believe ULIP.
The point is you responded to her incorrectly you apologized and it should be left in the past if we are to have love and unity we have to leave old wounds be or else it will just re open the wound.
This thread has already become a he says she says issue and strife has already rooted itself in the thread that was suppose to be about love and unity so my advice would be to let by gones be by gones and move on
I agree, and that is what I did with regard to the P/OSAS, having been raised in the Baptist denomination,
and I discovered/learned that MFW best harmonizes Scripture re the doctrine of election as follows:
56. M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31). Regarding God's nature, seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4, which might be deemed the
“7 pearls”.
57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.
58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).
Yes, which is why I created the Systematic Bible Study thread, where it is discussed in depth.
H
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Luke 12:51
Do you think that I came to provide peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division;
How hard does the heart become from a constant bombardment of :
calvies~~You can't believe to be saved.
armies~~You can lose/forfeit/walk away from the Lords salvation.
Not much encouragement in those 2 VERY PREVALENT false teachings.
True Bible doctrine is rejected today. Those who do not reject it, have fellowship, little strife and mutual encouragement.
Aah, thank you so much NT for posting a quote, so I can see where the disconnect is, which is that apparently
you overlook the words "judgmental attitude". My understanding is that this crosses the line on CC, but if I am
wrong about that, then I apologize and understand why it is so prevalent by some posters.
IOW, we can discuss the truth regarding TULIP-MFW in love all day (and night) long, but let us do so without
being judgmental, pejorative, argumentative, unforgiving, hateful, etc.
Aah, thanks for posting a quote of my offense, Mag. Maybe now we can clear this matter up. I said:
I find it incongruous that you claim to love Paul while ignoring his teaching, at least in this regard, apparently because of the reasons I cited:
1. ignoring Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work.
2. ignoring and disputing Paul's teaching that A&E and Abraham are examples of sin and faith, respectively.
3. ignoring Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised,
4. ignoring Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it,
5. ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not,
6. ignoring the obvious fact that by denying the last teaching you implicitly blaspheme God, ascribing to Him hatred of humanity, or at least most of it, depending on how many you think He elects.
To my post you replied:
A. I have never claimed that faith is meritorious. I'm not sure where you got that idea. It is the opposite of my belief.
B. I do not ignore that A&E are examples of sin and Abe an example of faith. It is quite shocking how easily you lie.
C. I never said the gospel message was foolishness to Abe. I don't know why you feel you have to make up so much crap.
D. Blaspheming God. I never said He hated humanity. My God, what a liar you are to be so dishonest about what I believe.
And I replied thusly:
Re "I have never claimed that faith is meritorious. I'm not sure where you got that idea. It is the opposite of my belief."
Why else would you refuse to ascribe the ability to seek and have faith in God to sinners? If it is non-meritorious, what's the problem?
Re "I do not ignore that A&E are examples of sin and Abe an example of faith. It is quite shocking how easily you lie."
Sorry, I thought that if you viewed Abraham as an example of saving faith for all to be erroneous that you would probably think the same about A&E being an example of sin.
Re "I never said the gospel message was foolishness to Abe. I don't know why you feel you have to make up so much crap.":
I inferred it from you saying that the natural/uncircumcised man--which Abraham was--could not believe the Gospel unless God circumcised his heart first, but Paul says Abraham had faith first before circumcision, so how do you avoid implying that crap?
Re "Blaspheming God. I never said He hated humanity. My God, what a liar you are to be so dishonest about what I believe."
What I said was that by denying the teaching that God loves and wants to save all people you implicitly ascribe to Him hatred of however many humans you think He does not elect to circumcise--and you did not say that you believe God circumcises everyone's heart just now, so how do you avoid this implication?
My amended understanding is this:
1. You agree with Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved.
2. You agree with Paul's teaching that A&E exemplify sin but disagree that Abraham exemplifies faith
3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised,
4. You agree with Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it,
5. You seem oblivious to the implication that by ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, you ascribe hatred for the part of humanity whose hearts God does not circumcise so they may believe and be saved and effectually force them to go to hell.
BTW, it is wrong to say someone lies when they merely misunderstand you.
So, everyone on this thread, please opine.
On the contrary Blain, this thread advocating unity and love is the perfect thread for resolving the animosity she feels toward me.
Re the thread causing the strife, she only posted her side of the story, so please consider what I said in #96 before judging.
Well to be fair I only saw what she showed me and as for your post I will admit that it seems to be complex the discussion you two were having I cannot say that I fully understand the situation but at the very least there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding
However it went down I know both of you and both of you are my friends so I want to resolve this issue asap
Re "there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding": Yes, for which I hereby apologize again,
and I hope Mag will forgive and reply to my amended understanding, so we all will discuss any
disagreements as friends in the future.