Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17
Belief based on personal claims of supernatural experience is the home of cults and chaos.
If the Word of God is not enough then your personal experience will not help. Luke16:31
Master of Divinity Student
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Belief based on personal claims of supernatural experience is the home of cults and chaos.
If the Word of God is not enough then your personal experience will not help. Luke16:31
A supernatural event that comes from God will not go against what is said in the Bible.
If it does go against the Bible, then you'll know it didn't come from God.
Just make sure you know what the Bible says and that you are close in your walk with God enough to discern these things.
The problem is that is that scripture does not teach this. It teaches that the Spirit gives gifts to members of the body of Christ as He wills. That is the doctrine of the New Testament on the matter. You can assert that God will not empower individuals to do miracles, but that does not mean that God is limited to your own made-up doctrine.
The average day-to-day life of a believer or even an apostle in the New Testament might not have involved supernatural healing or a miracle. But they happened at times, and we see occasions when they did in scripture. There are also numerous accounts of miracles, healings, and other gifts throughout history if you do a bit of digging. Some are in hagiographies, for example.
True but the ceasing of the gifts of 1st Cor. 13 is most certainly an argument from observation (posteriori).
And a very good argument at that.
This is not an issue of "doctrine" this is an issue of reality. Have the gifts of 1st Cor. 13 been going on since the 1st Century?
It is clearly not
Paul who was writing during the time of these gifts expected Christians to seek them out. Are they being searched for today, yes but they are not being given. This is clear to see. What is being labeled today as supernatural are simply parlor tricks with no authority or power.
I have to do a "bit of digging" into history to prove a ongoing current event? Do you not see the foolishness???
You do not prove a claim of a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit is true by simply making sure that the claimant is not going against what you think the Bible says.A supernatural event that comes from God will not go against what is said in the Bible.
If it does go against the Bible, then you'll know it didn't come from God.
Just make sure you know what the Bible says and that you are close in your walk with God enough to discern these things.
A person who doesn't want to believe will ALWAYS find a reason not to believe.
So I'm not going to bother debating this with you.
... which fails completely with a single manifestation.
It's a fallacious argument from ignorance. By your "logic", God doesn't exist because you can't find Him in the physical universe.
Jesus refutes your poor logic with this:
John 10:37-38 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
I don't claim that my belief is "based on" supernatural experience; on the contrary, it is based on the word of God, and confirmed by supernatural experience.
You really should stop making negative assumptions about others; they will bite you in the donkey every time, Jack.
Woman born deaf comes up for prayer. The lord told him its a spirit and to put his fingers in her ears and tell that spirit it has to leave. He never did anything like that and said lord I can't and I can't and the lord said "then just leave it there". So he did exactly as God said. And she right then right there heard for the first time in her life and hundreds all witnessed that with Christ the blind see the deaf hear the lame walk and the dead come back to life. I when I was in my 20's first time witnessing a healing. A woman was up front crying almost screaming. I asked the guy who was in the back with me "who is that"? He said you see all the people here? About half (150-200) came with her because she was blind. Yeah blind and in Jesus name now see.
Peter and John said why are you looking at us as if we did this (Healing at the gate) by our own power? That name faith in that name healed this man". Christ said "these signs shall follow (accompany believers,) them that believe". He said before He died and rose (Oh shouting time!) on earth as it is in heaven.
Haha... Oh Father I love you. Well I was just going to talk about how some are moved by what they see and feel yet the song that just started "not by sight". Some can quote the word praise GOD for His word yet they walk by sight not by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for its the evidence of things not seen. Were not just a reflection in a mirror we are created in are Fathers image and He is GOD the great I am and with out faith we cannot please Him. Doubt will always stop Him.
Like Peter and John after went back to their own (And being let go, they went to their own companions). Like Christ you get away from those that doubt do not believe for they will not see. He did this many times.. made them leave. Did not Christ say "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; or else believe Me for the very works’ sake. "
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. I can stay just in the OT if you wish. Not here to debate.......remind Him of what He promised for they are yes and amen.
As for this thread no clue what it was about...
Peter and John said why are you looking at us as if we did this (Healing at the gate) by our own power? That name faith in that name healed this man". Christ said "these signs shall follow (accompany believers,) them that believe". He said before He died and rose (Oh shouting time!) on earth as it is in heaven.
Haha... Oh Father I love you. Well I was just going to talk about how some are moved by what they see and feel yet the song that just started "not by sight". Some can quote the word praise GOD for His word yet they walk by sight not by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for its the evidence of things not seen. Were not just a reflection in a mirror we are created in are Fathers image and He is GOD the great I am and with out faith we cannot please Him. Doubt will always stop Him.
Like Peter and John after went back to their own (And being let go, they went to their own companions). Like Christ you get away from those that doubt do not believe for they will not see. He did this many times.. made them leave. Did not Christ say "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; or else believe Me for the very works’ sake. "
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. I can stay just in the OT if you wish. Not here to debate.......remind Him of what He promised for they are yes and amen.
As for this thread no clue what it was about...
You are adamant that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased in the first century.
Joel 2:28-32
It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days. The Day of the Lord.
I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke.
The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and
awesome day of the Lord comes. And it will come about that whoever calls on the
name of the Lord will be delivered.
So your argument that the gifts ceased in the 1st century is void.
You lost Lamar.
I will have to keep repeating myself.
The N.T. tells us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are active.
The N.T. does not say that the gifts will cease in the 1st century.
Please do not associate me with Joseph Smith.
Why do I need to repeat myself?
God is not bound to your limitation of life experience. I have heard numerous prophecies throughout the years that made manifest the secrets of another individual's hearts, not things that could be known naturally (and before the rise of personal information social media and the use of smart phones also.) Numerous people have been healed through the laying of hands. I went to a Christian school in middle school, affiliated with the church that most of us went to. A girl in the grade ahead of me had severely crossed eyes and wore these glasses that made her eyes look huge, magnifying them many times over. i did not ask if she were legally blind, but I presume she was. We had an evangelist who laid hands on the sick visiting. I did not see her lay hands on this girl since there was quite a crowd down there at the front, but the next day as we children waited outside for the school doors to be opened, I heard that she had been healed, so I went over and talk to her about it, about the man laying hands on her, and her eyes being healed. I could see the visible evidence that her eyes were no longer crossed. Many healings aren't as visibly obvious. My mother's bosses wife was healed of an ailment as an evangelist diagnosed her from the pulpit and said she was healed.
Have you never known any healed after being anointed with oil by the elders either?
Have you bothered to do any research on this topic, or are you just spouting your thoughts based on your own worldview and belief system? I haven't read it yet, but I do know that Bible commentator Craig Keener collected a lot of information on historical and modern miracles for his 1200+ book 'Miracles.' There is plenty to read on the topic. Reality is not limited by your ignorance on the issue.
If you are in a subculture that has a lot of unbelief on this topic, you may need to speak with other Christians not from that same subculture. If you will notice, Jesus often spoke of faith in connection with healing and miracles. Think of 'Be it unto you according to your faith' and Peter sinking in the water when he doubted, and the Lord Jesus not doing many mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief.
I see the foolishness of interpreting scripture based on your limited life experience, and lack of research to find out what is really going on.
Okay but how do you know when a supernatural claim is real?
The Holy Spirit will reveal if a supernatural claim is from God or not.
This is why it's so important to have personal walk with God and study the Bible with Him to get to know Him well. So when a counterfeit anything comes along, then you'll be able to "hear" or "see" it from God for what it is.
That's why a Christian shouldn't jump to conclusions about those claims either way - give them to God for inspection. Sometimes I even double-check with God to make sure I got His message correctly.
Do you have any Biblical references of this method of discernment of supernatural claims?The Holy Spirit will reveal if a supernatural claim is from God or not.
This is why it's so important to have personal walk with God and study the Bible with Him to get to know Him well. So when a counterfeit anything comes along, then you'll be able to "hear" or "see" it from God for what it is.
That's why a Christian shouldn't jump to conclusions about those claims either way - give them to God for inspection. Sometimes I even double-check with God to make sure I got His message correctly.
Joseph Smith told his followers to do exactly what you are suggesting. He told them to pray for discernment from the Holy Spirit about his claims of being given the Golden Tablets by an angel and being made a prophet. They did and they followed him. Mormons today will ask you to do the same thing, quoting James 1:5.
When Paul came to Berea, the Jews searched the Word of God to see if his claims were true.
If someone claims the ability to heal the sick I will not pray to know if he is truthful.
I will look for the holes in his roof. Luke 5:17-39