Do protestants have a reasonable non-Roman-Catholic explanation for John 20:22-23?

[posthuman]

I came across a video lately by so fellow who left protestantism because he claimed no protestant commentaries had anything to say about John 20:22-23, but Roman Catholic scholars did, claiming that it gives special authority to ordained priests to forgive the sins of others in the Roman Catholic sacrament of confession. So, I thought this might be a good text to discuss here.

Jhn 20:22
And (καὶ) after saying (εἰπὼν, aorist active participle) this, (τοῦτο) he breathed into (ἐνεφύσησεν, aorist active indicative) them and (καὶ) says (λέγει, present indicative active) to them (αὐτοῖς) “Receive (λάβετε, aorist active imperative, start to receive) Holy Spirit (πνεῦμα ἅγιον, anarthrous nominal: that which characterises the Holy Spirit).
20:22 καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησεν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς λάβετε πνεῦμα ἅγιον
Jhn 20:23
“Whosoever's (ἄν τινων) sins (τὰς ἁμαρτίας, mark-missings) you release/forgive (ἀφῆτε, aorist active subjunctive), they have been released/forgiven (ἀφέωνται, perfect passive indicative, they were released/forgiven and continue to be released/forgive) to/for them (αὐτοῖς); whosoever's ( ἄν τινων) you (pl.) keep taking hold of (κρατῆτε, present active subjunctive), they have been taken hold of (κεκράτηνται, perfect passive indicative, they were taken hold of and continue to be taken hold of).”
20:23 ἄν τινων ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀφέωνται αὐτοῖς ἄν τινων κρατῆτε κεκράτηνται

I believe we should understand this in the light of some of Jesus' other statements about forgiveness.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.....
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The disciples at this time received the gracious nature of the Holy Spirit from Jesus, since they had believed in their hearts He was risen from the dead and had confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord. This grace enabled them to forgive one another and come into harmony and unity ready for Pentecost (Act 2:1), when the Holy Spirit would be released upon all flesh (Act 2:17) the Lord working through Him with the disciples, confirming the word of God with signs and wonders (Mar 16:20).

So, here in John 20, Jesus is giving the disciples the grace to let go of their grudges and resentment against one another. He is telling them that once you let go of someone's mark-missing, you can be assured that God has also forgiven that same mark-missing. But if you are holding on to your brother's or sister's shortcomings and not releasing them, you have taken upon yourself ownership of those same shortcomings in your own life, and you will be judged by God for them.

So, it is not about the apostles receiving a special apostolic declarative power to break sins off people, but it is about the Holy Spirit's grace at work in every believer, and every believer's responsibility to freely give the forgiveness they have freely received, in order to continue to freely receive forgiveness.

yes, it's pretty clear, to me at least, if you read this in a somewhat strictly literal translation like YLT - -

John 20:23​

if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.​

the promise here is that those disciples with the Holy Spirit, what they do will have already been foreordained and completed in heaven already - - the only 'special power' being that they, specifically when acting by the authentic Spirit, will be perfectly aligned with what has already been done by the will of heaven.

grammatically this bears out completely but doesn't translate well to English, which is much less precise than Greek. i am not aware whether latin expresses this complex sentiment well or not, or, if it was simply a a case of an elite educated ruling class bamboozeling a poor illiterate proletariat.

the sense is this:

to those who have the Spirit:
if you loose, they have been loosed alteady
if you retain, they have already been retained.

 

[TruthDefender]

yes, it's pretty clear, to me at least, if you read this in a somewhat strictly literal translation like YLT - -

John 20:23​

if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.​

the promise here is that those disciples with the Holy Spirit, what they do will have already been foreordained and completed in heaven already - - the only 'special power' being that they, specifically when acting by the authentic Spirit, will be perfectly aligned with what has already been done by the will of heaven.

grammatically this bears out completely but doesn't translate well to English, which is much less precise than Greek. i am not aware whether latin expresses this complex sentiment well or not, or, if it was simply a a case of an elite educated ruling class bamboozeling a poor illiterate proletariat.

the sense is this:

to those who have the Spirit:
if you loose, they have been loosed alteady
if you retain, they have already been retained.

It’s understood in English very well.

 

[beechan]

Jesus is the Head of our church/ His church (for all local congregations).

We have over 40000 christian denominations globally. Many of those are Protestant denominations. Jesus is the head of which church?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

We have over 40000 christian denominations globally. Many of those are Protestant denominations. Jesus is the head of which church?

The one that worships him in spirit and in truth.

 

[beechan]

The one that worships him in spirit and in truth.

Then which is that 'the one'??

 

[Dino246]

I have just showed you the biblical support in #25.
I can quote you more if you need them.

You show us how you would interprete these verses if you think I was wrong on their meaning.

What you have shown is the Scripture that Catholics misinterpret. There is no clear support for their view. The priesthood mentioned in Hebrews was the Levitical priesthood, which ended in AD 70. There is no comparable human priesthood in the Church. As the Scripture states, we have one high priest: Jesus Himself, and we need no human to stand in that role.

 

[beechan]

As the Scripture states, we have one high priest: Jesus Himself, and we need no human to stand in that role.

The catholic priest in mass does not replace Christ; he represents Christ.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

The catholic priest in mass does not replace Christ; he represents Christ.

But he has no right to represent Christ!

 

[beechan]

But he has no right to represent Christ!

The source of authority :
priest ——from bishop —-from Pope ——from successor of Peter ——peter —-from Jesus.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

The source of authority :
priest ——from bishop —-from Pope ——from successor of Peter ——peter —-from Jesus.

And the first Pope had no right to take it upon himself to be the "successor" from Peter!

 

[Eli1]

And the first Pope had no right to take it upon himself to be the "successor" from Peter!

Crickey mate.
The Roman Catholics are bogan in Australia too?
Blimey !

 

[Magenta]

We have over 40000 christian denominations globally.

That is simply not true.

Denominations: The facts~

There are nowhere near as many denominations in Christianity as some suppose/believe.

The numbers thrown around are a terrible miscalculation based on a
lack of understanding perpetuated by, um, well, a dearth of knowledge.

Many sources say many things and many of those things are blatant falsehoods .

I have posted this before so am simply copy/pasting from an earlier post:

33,000 or 45,000 --- these are false numbers based on an egregious misunderstanding.

That misunderstanding gets thrown around as if it were truth when it is not.
Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are
nowhere close to 33,000 - 45,000 denominations. Many of these groups are merely subgroups
of larger denominational groups such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, or Baptists.

Evangelical apologist Eric Svendsen exposes the falsehood of this fabrication. Briefly:

Svendsen shows that the source of this figure is the World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford
University Press, 1982). Barrett cites a figure of 20,780 denominations. Still, not all of them are Protestants.
According to Barrett, Protestants account for 8,196 (and incidentally, Roman Catholics account for 223).

However, even this figure of eight thousand Protestant denominations is misleading, for Barrett defines
"distinct denominations" as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group.
The distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

Barrett breaks down the Protestant bloc into twenty-one major "traditions" which are much closer to what we usually
mean by the word "denominations." It is interesting that Roman Catholics are subdivided into sixteen such "traditions."

Svendsen concludes, "In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly - and, as a result, irresponsibly - glanced
at Barrett's work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded." source

 

[Magenta]

Hebrews 5:1
“Every high priest is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Priests mediate between God and humanity, just as Christ does perfectly. Catholic priests share in that priesthood through Him.

Jesus is our high priest. There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

Crickey mate.
The Roman Catholics are bogan in Australia too?
Blimey !

Definitely, mate! You betcha!

 

[Dino246]

The catholic priest in mass does not replace Christ; he represents Christ.

Without biblical authority to do so.

 

[beechan]

Without biblical authority to do so.

Of course there is no biblical authority when you turn blind to them.

Here is a few:
John 21:15-17 Jesus says to Peter (particularly to Peter) three times:"Feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep"
Christ entrusts his own flock to Peter's pastoral care.

In regard to apostolic succession:
2 timoth 2:2
Paul instructs timothy to pass on the teaching to others who can teach.


Look like I do better 'sola scriptula' then you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I came across a video lately by so fellow who left protestantism because he claimed no protestant commentaries had anything to say about John 20:22-23, but Roman Catholic scholars did, claiming that it gives special authority to ordained priests to forgive the sins of others in the Roman Catholic sacrament of confession. So, I thought this might be a good text to discuss here.

Jhn 20:22
And (καὶ) after saying (εἰπὼν, aorist active participle) this, (τοῦτο) he breathed into (ἐνεφύσησεν, aorist active indicative) them and (καὶ) says (λέγει, present indicative active) to them (αὐτοῖς) “Receive (λάβετε, aorist active imperative, start to receive) Holy Spirit (πνεῦμα ἅγιον, anarthrous nominal: that which characterises the Holy Spirit).
20:22 καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησεν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς λάβετε πνεῦμα ἅγιον
Jhn 20:23
“Whosoever's (ἄν τινων) sins (τὰς ἁμαρτίας, mark-missings) you release/forgive (ἀφῆτε, aorist active subjunctive), they have been released/forgiven (ἀφέωνται, perfect passive indicative, they were released/forgiven and continue to be released/forgive) to/for them (αὐτοῖς); whosoever's ( ἄν τινων) you (pl.) keep taking hold of (κρατῆτε, present active subjunctive), they have been taken hold of (κεκράτηνται, perfect passive indicative, they were taken hold of and continue to be taken hold of).”
20:23 ἄν τινων ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀφέωνται αὐτοῖς ἄν τινων κρατῆτε κεκράτηνται

I believe we should understand this in the light of some of Jesus' other statements about forgiveness.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.....
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The disciples at this time received the gracious nature of the Holy Spirit from Jesus, since they had believed in their hearts He was risen from the dead and had confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord. This grace enabled them to forgive one another and come into harmony and unity ready for Pentecost (Act 2:1), when the Holy Spirit would be released upon all flesh (Act 2:17) the Lord working through Him with the disciples, confirming the word of God with signs and wonders (Mar 16:20).

So, here in John 20, Jesus is giving the disciples the grace to let go of their grudges and resentment against one another. He is telling them that once you let go of someone's mark-missing, you can be assured that God has also forgiven that same mark-missing. But if you are holding on to your brother's or sister's shortcomings and not releasing them, you have taken upon yourself ownership of those same shortcomings in your own life, and you will be judged by God for them.

So, it is not about the apostles receiving a special apostolic declarative power to break sins off people, but it is about the Holy Spirit's grace at work in every believer, and every believer's responsibility to freely give the forgiveness they have freely received, in order to continue to freely receive forgiveness.

Wonderful and insightful post thanks for sharing

 

[TruthDefender]

We have over 40000 christian denominations globally. Many of those are Protestant denominations. Jesus is the head of which church?

Only ONE, His church (those local congregations who follow His pattern from Scripture).

 

[TruthDefender]

Then which is that 'the one'??

The one that God authorizes from the pattern given in the NT. We must follow the pattern.

The Head of this church is always Jesus, the rest are members (saints). We sing, pray, learn from Scripture. Each body (church= local congregation) is separate from the next. All the male saints participate in various roles.

We learn Truth from Scripture only.

 

[beechan]

Only ONE, His church (those local congregations who follow His pattern from Scripture).

We learn Truth from Scripture only.

When Jesus ascended to Father, he did not leave the disciples a 'scripture' ( or a manual to heaven) for them to follow.
Scriptures came from the Church: the apostolic teaching