that's right. [concerning the rapture happening in a flash]
let's look at it:
1 Corinthians 15:52
New International Version (©1984)
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
New Living Translation (©2007)
It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
English Standard Version (©2001)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
and?
where's the pretrib doctrine in any of that letter?
He is describing the pretrib rapture, not the second advent.
this is the Second Advent, the Final Judgment. nothing after this but eternity.
easily proven.
You keep saying "easily proven". Please provide your proof.
nice idea. prove it please.
Rev 20 takes place after Armageddon.
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and
bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and
they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
...then comes the white throne judgment.
It will happen after armageddon, the battle at the end of the trib.
and what happens AFTER IT?
After this:
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations...
9) ...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
the devil is destroyed, and the great white throne judgment, when ALL the dead not yet raised will get up. Everyone who was not a believer will be judged, with many being tossed into the lake of fire and burned up.
Then comes the new heaven and earth (Rev 21).
1 Corinthians 15:52
New International Version (©1984)
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
show me where, after the LAST TRUMPET there's a literal 1,000 year set up in Jerusalem.
show me Jesus saying it.
You are trying to compare the "last trump" in 1 Cor 15 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. They are not the same. When Christ returns for the church, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God:". The trump of God here indicates an announcement, similar to the call to race at the Kentucky Derby, or bugling "charge" at the start of a battle. Then 1 Cor 15 " at the last trump". IE: when the announcing trumpet ceases. Then the dead in Christ will rise, and the living will be changed. Again, the last trump in 1 Cor 15 is NOT the seventh trumpet in Rev.
After the last trumpet in Rev comes the bowls, Christ's second advent, armageddon, and the millennial kingdom.
here's John saying he was taken in the Spirit (VISIONS) to The Lord's Day (did he leave prison on Patmos? no ): john was shown everything from THE LORD'S DAY (2nd Advent) forwards and backwards to COMFORT US.
Not us. We'll be gone. We can surely learn from it, though.
you will need to show that he EVER taught a literal 1,000 year reign during ANY of that time. show it happening now (amillennialism using one thousand years as God used it: symbolizing FULLNESS) OR in the future as literal. you will find it NOWHERE AS LITERAL - IT'S impossible FOR IT TO BE A LITERAL 1,000 YEARS. IMPOSSIBLE.
Not if you understand WHEN it is going to happen. Obviously, if we are in it now, it CANNOT be a literal thousand years. ~2000 years have passed. But the millennial kingdom is still FUTURE, and it will be 1000 years long.
Rev 20 is your ONLY hope, and that is easily shown to NOT be about an earthly reign:
Revelation 1
9I John, who also am your brother, and
companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book
How does this prove it will not be an earthly reign? Zone, man's final dwelling place will be the earth. "The meek will inherit the earth". I'm not going to take the time to locate them right now, but the OT has MANY references to the millennial kingdom. It was part of Israel's hope. "swords into plowshares", the sower will be chasing the reaper out of the fields (lots of food), live in safety, etc, etc. This will all take place on the earth, with Christ ruling with a "rod of iron", in the millennial kingdom.
(btw....if Daniel 9 is not fulfilled, what's john saying in red?)
He's not referring to THE trib, but that he was experiencing tribulation, being in prison and all. And Christians will be present in the kingdom.
so we agree paul taught this?
(we need not yet agree on how long The Lord's Day is or if it is on earth for 1,000 years yet.
we just need to agree if Paul taught The Lord's Day comes AFTER the apsotasy and trib.)
Yes, the Lord's Day (Christ returning to earth as K of K and L of L) comes after the apostacy and the trib.
you have to prove this.
is this your proof?
1 Thessalonians 4
The Coming of the Lord
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,
d that we who are alive, who are left
until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
where's the pretrib?
In 1 Thes, the "coming of the Lord" is the rapture, not the second advent. We meet him in the air. At this time he is NOT returning to earth. He is coming to gather the Christian Church.
this is ONLY comforting them that their dead loved ones ARE WITH THE LORD.
and that when He comes they will be reunited.
This brings up a different subject..... Dead people are dead, not "with the Lord". But yes, after the dead have been raised, they will be reunited with any people still living. This is a resurrection for Christians, not the resurrection of the just spoken about in Rev 20.
it says NOTHING WHATOSEVER about a pretrib rapture. zero.
It IS the pretrib rapture.
and....what's he talking about here?
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as
do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
is this your proof?
because paul said we are not appointed to wrath?
he says we are apponited to salvation.
do you think The Lord will mistake His own and pour wrath on them?
No, because we'll be with Christ.
Rev 20 is not fables. It will happen.
uh....ye-e-e-e-es.......(?)
but the "rapture" is the The 2nd Advent and change (resurrection).
No, it isn't. The rapture pertains to the Christian Church. The second advent was prophesied long before anyone knew anything about this administration of grace, the mystery, Christianity.
The Lord's Day is exactly what it says it is.
JUDGMENT.
Yep. To Israel. Christians will have already been judged.
why do you say it isn't?
what hasn't happened in that passge yet?
The "prince that shall come" in v26, 27 is the antichrist.
Bless, zonester