I do not know who you have been talking to, but I have never heard anyone tell another what fruit they must bare outside of scripture (Galatians chapter 5). However there must be fruit, and it must be good fruit, Jesus tells us this Matthew 7
Matthew 7
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Firstly, note that these scriptures you present are not about not bearing or bearing fruit, this is about good versus bad fruit, there is a difference. There must be fruit? What about infants? What about the disabled? What about new believers?
Depends what we mean by fruit here. Do we mean confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? I'd call that a fruit. That would fit nicely with Romans 10 that if we believe in our heart , and confess with our mouth, we will be saved. That's it, finished story, no need to add anything else to salvation about "lordship" or anything like that. The bible is clear that the moment of justification is faith in the heart. There's nothing about "having to bear fruit" there in those scriptures. Others might disagree, and think bearing fruit is helping little old ladies across the street, no matter. The point is that God knows the heart, fruit or not. Proponents of Lordship salvation may condemn true saved believers for not bearing fruit, because they don't understand that it takes time for fruit to grow. That's why God leaves the wheat and the tares to grow until harvest. You can't tell the difference when they are young seedlings, they look similar, it is only when they are fully grown that you know.
Those who preach Lordship salvation I have found tend towards the side of legalism, i.e. they almost make a set of rules about what sort of fruit you must have, and if you don't have it, they don't consider you saved. That's in extreme cases.
That is not how God works at all. We all know that if we plant a seed, with watering it takes time for the plant to grow into a tree and still takes time to bear fruit,
in due season. In due season is important, the proponents of Lordship salvation tend to demand fruit out of season, or demand there to be fruit all the time, which is simply not how it works.
Yes fruit may be evident clearly at the moment of conversion - people who were former alcoholics or drug addicts for example who have miraculous conversions and set free from their addictions. Some go straight into preaching and display miraculous powers. This seems to be more the exception than the rule, however. Anyone involved in true evangelism and discipling (not the instant conversion send you on your merry way type evangelism) knows that it takes time for a person to "grow" in their faith, and time to bear fruit. There are periods of planting, watering, sowing, and reaping. The fruit of their salvation may simply be successive realisations of spiritual truths that an outsider can not see or know, only God who knows the heart.
The problem is not ''Lordship'' salvation. The problem is to many people want to make God Savior, without making Him Lord. You simply cannot have one with out the other.
I don't see them as separate, they are one and the same. There are not two Jesus's, there is not two different roles - "Lord and Saviour" is to be read as one unit, not two separate entitites. It is not "Lord and /or Saviour". If a person has Jesus as their Saviour, they
automatically have Him as their Lord as well, fruit or not. It is impossible, to have Jesus as Saviour, and for Him not to automatically be Lord as well. So a saved person, already has Jesus as Lord, whether they obey or not,
is another matter altogether. It doesn't mean they are not saved. It means they are
disobedient children. There are unbelievers, who are not children, there are believers, who are disobedient, these are disobedient children, there are children who are obedient. Whether disobedient or not, they are still children. Now I disagree that a person is
always a child of God, I believe a person can lose their salvation at the end, if that disobedience is severe enough, they may suffer the fate of an unbeliever or unfaithful servant, Christ may disown them. But my point is, whether He is Lord, or not, is nothing to do with their salvation, but to do with their
obedience. Every saved person has Jesus as Lord. This is where the Lordship salvation gets it confused.
I found this article writing by David J Stewart, calling Lordship Salvation false, and I thought it would be good to share to show how ridiculous the idea of not making Christ Lord is. Some of Mr. Stewart's commits would be hilarious if he wasn't being serious.
Ok but let's take a look at Washer's views as well, just reading below I don't think they are all correct either.
''Paul David Washer is a false prophet, a member of the apostate Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), who teaches Lordship Salvation. Here's a one hour video sermon where Mr. Washer brainwashes a group of 5,000 youths to believe that they cannot be saved unless they stop living in sin''
lol, of course you are not saved if you are still living in sin.
That's true, we can't be saved in sin, we are saved from sin. As long as he doesn't put the cart before the horse. i.e. we don't stop sinning first, and then come to Christ and are saved. We go to Christ as a dirty rotten sinner, and He cleans us up. Continuing living in sin shows that they haven't gone to Christ in the first place perhaps. Or, they need deliverance from demons or past addictions or habits to be broken by the power of God. Often this is the case, that a person is not suddenly set free from all their problems the moment they come to Christ. It takes time, but as progressive change is fine too.
''Washer is adamantly clear that a person is not saved who doesn't have a drastic turnabout in their lifestyle.''
How can you claim to have an experience with God and it not dramatically change you?
Washer is wrong on this point, I believe. Anyone involved in evangelism and discipleship knows that most people don't have dramatic turn arounds. Sure, the drug addicts might, others won't.
In our society a lot of people, even atheists, are good moral people The change in them may not be that obvious, it may be as simple as a hardened atheist coming to the realisation that God is real and turning his heart of stone into a heart of flesh. We can't see what those things happen in the heart, so demanding dramatic conversions is totally wrong and tends towards the side of legalism and "religion" (the bad kind). Washer is like a farmer demanding that his apple trees grow fruit the very instant it is apple season, and if not he is bound to think that tree is not an apple tree at all but something else.
''That is a false Gospel. In one statement Paul Washer says that we are saved by faith alone; but then in the next statement he subtly requires giving up one's sinful lifestyle to be saved.''
You mean ceasing from sin is necessary after repentance I am shocked.....lol
Yes a sinful lifestyle needs to be given up, but this usually a process, maybe this is what he is referring to.
''You can study the Bible over and over and you'll only find that salvation is the free gift of God. Heretics like Paul Washer attempt to connect holy living with salvation, which is the heresy of Lordship Salvation''
lol....what a heresy, you mean we cannot keep drinking ,smoking, cursing, and cheating on our wives after we get saved? How dare them heretics think such a thing...lol
Saved people may drink, saveds people may smoke. I see nothing in the bible preventing Christians from smoking or drinking. The average American (or Aussie) "pigging out" on Big Macs or over-sized meals and ruining their health that way is just as much a sin. Saved people may swear. Christians are not perfect, they are saved and forgiven. It is Christ's holiness we obtain not our own. Even the cursing christian is saved by Christ's blood.
''Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
If.... Jesus was teaching that salvation requires walking a strait "way" of continued obedience to God, then salvation is a PROCESS. This is the same ****able heresy that the Salvation Army teaches.''
So Jesus is teaching heresy now...WOW!!!!
''Heretics like Paul Washer teach that sinners must stop living in sin in order to be saved;''
How dare he....lol
I disagree that salvation is a process. In my mind, it's a state of being. You can't be more saved tomorrow than you were today. Depends what sort of salvation we're talking about here. Salvation might be a process if we are being saved from bitterness or anger etc. But to be saved from God's wrath in the judgement salvation is not a process, it's all about Jesus, happens at the moment of belief.
''Paul washer teaches a false Gospel which requires a person to continue on God's path of righteousness in order to be saved.''
Can you see how ridiculous Mr. stewart is. He is so hell bound to continue in sin, that he is literall hell bound and doesn't even know it.
There's no need to condemn people to hell, maybe Mr Stewart is a true Christian then we'd be in danger of blasphemy. Although that Jesus is Saviour website is mostly sensationalist nonsense. Mr Stewart may have some valid points. The "path" of righteousness is believing in Christ, it is Christ's righteousness we live by not our own. There is no path of righteousness then, it is either unrighteous or righteous. Every believer is righteous by Christ's work alone, not their own righteousness. And yes this will mean that they will have the grace to not continue in sin as well and will turn from their sins. Not to be saved, but because they love and know the Saviour, aka obedience out of love.
