So smug. Where did markss say that he does not want to obey God?So defensive!
Just simply say you don't want to obey God.
THE REQUIREMENTS FOR ETERNAL LIFE ACCORDING TO JESUS
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So then the disobedient are not "in Christ", and are not saved? In that their disobedience demonstrates that they were not saved to begin with?
Much love!
We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place, but rather it was given to describe the life of a righteous person as it describes the life of Christ, so it is what we get to become a doer of by being given the gift of righteousness through faith.
In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. If someone is choosing to be doer of disobedience, then how can they be considered to be saved from not being a doer of disobedience?
The Bible never listed which laws are part of the moral law and never even refers to that as being a subcategory of law. The existence of the moral law would imply that that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that aren't in that subcategory, however, there are no examples in the Bible disobedience to God being described as moral and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to embody God's character traits, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Legislators give laws in accordance with their understanding of what ought to be done, so for someone to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws would be to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.
God's righteousness and justice are reflected in civil matters and His holiness is reflected in ceremonial matters, so those are all moral issues. For example, we are told to be holy for God is holy (1 Peter 1:16), which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so that is reflecting God's character, which is a moral issue.
I was not suggesting that Jesus broke the law, but rather I brought up him not following the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period to show that he was not obligated to follow every single law. and that there was no sin in him not following those laws.
The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have the experience of driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be aimed towards being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God. We can't earn our righteousness, salvation, or eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, but rather it was given in order to teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience those gifts.
In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.
When Jesus calms the storm, all His disciples are terrified and ask, do you not care that we are perishing?
This is a clear case of placing the cares of this world above all else. They lost faith! Guess they were not saved after all. . . . . .
This is a clear case of placing the cares of this world above all else. They lost faith! Guess they were not saved after all. . . . . .
Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so saying that he is the law of the NC is not different than saying that God's Word is the law of the NC. Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4), so there are not good grounds for thinking that the law of the NC is not in perfect accordance with every word that comes from the mouth of God.
God remembering our sin no more is not contrary to the objection of the Mosaic Covenant. God's character traits are eternal, therefore any instructions that God has given for how to know Him through embodying His character traits are eternal and cumulatively valid. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142) therefore all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160), and if the way to embody God's righteousness were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration. A priesthood that is administered by God's Word made flesh is in perfect accordance with following God's Word.
You are right that the Bible does not use the label “moral law” as a technical category. But Scripture clearly shows distinctions in how certain laws were given and treated. The Ten Commandments were spoken directly by God, written by His finger on stone, and placed inside the ark (Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 10:1–5). The other laws were written by Moses in a book and placed beside the ark (Deuteronomy 31:24–26). That difference is not accidental.
All of God’s commands are righteous, but some were tied to Israel’s priesthood, sacrifices, and ritual purity. Those pointed forward. Jesus fulfilled what pointed to Him (Matthew 5:17). He also shifted the focus from external ritual to the heart, teaching that what truly defiles a person comes from within (Mark 7:18–23). That shows a difference between ceremonial shadows and moral realities.
Regarding salvation, Jesus never taught that obedience earns eternal life. But He never separated eternal life from obedience either. He said, “this do, and thou shalt live” (Luke 10:28), “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15), and “he that doeth the will of my Father” will enter the kingdom (Matthew 7:21). Obedience is not the payment for salvation. It is the evidence of a changed heart.
So the issue is not whether we can disobey some of God’s laws and still be moral. The issue is that Scripture itself shows that some commands were temporary and symbolic, while the commandments that define love for God and neighbor reflect His unchanging character. Those remain the foundation of righteous living.
No, they are not. That God would bring forth the eternal New Covenant was made known to Abraham, so it was always in God's intention, even before the Mosaic Covenant, for the NC to come to fruition, and therefore, not a change to His word. The NC is a total rejection of the Mosaic Covenant as pertains to salvation: for those under the Mosaic Covenant, they must satisfy its laws perfectly through works and performance, and which is an earthly covenant; the NC, however, was exclusively and unilaterally satisfied by God for those whom He places under it according to/by His grace through Christ, with nothing required nor permitted from those under it - it is a heavenly eternal covenant. The two covenants are as different as heaven is from earth. Your error is that you do not believe in salvation by God's grace through Jesus Christ as the Savior, but instead, through man and law, otherwise, you wouldn't see a continuing place for the Mosaic Covenant for salvation- which covenant, was completely done away with in Christ.
The law of Psalm 199:160 pertain to the new laws of the NC, not the OC, so Heb 7:12 cannot be referring to the OC since it tells us through Christ, that it was done away with.
No matter how you may parse it, Jesus spoke in terms of "the Law and the Prophets", reflecting God's covenant with Israel (all that you say we will do), and James was specific and clear, the Law is a single thing, that you either keep or you do not. You do not have the privilege to subdivide the Law according to your views.
So then in that obedience is required, your issue is that obedience is not always possible, such as the case of the tithe. Commanded in the Law, affirmed by Jesus, and unable to be kept in the present day, which agrees with Paul, giving is to be "not by compulsion".
Much love!
Yes. That is exactly what Jesus teaches.
Not everyone who claims His name belongs to Him. He said many will call Him “Lord” and still be rejected because they practice lawlessness (Matthew 7:21–23). That means their confession was empty. Their lives showed they were never truly under His rule.
Jesus also said, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). If someone refuses His authority, they are not submitting to Him. And if they are not submitting to Him, they are not walking with Him.
He made it even clearer: “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch” (John 15:5–6). A branch that bears no fruit is not living in the vine. It may look connected for a time, but it has no life flowing through it.
So yes, ongoing, willful disobedience shows a person is not truly in Christ. But a saved person does not make peace with rebellion. If someone lives in open rejection of His will, Jesus Himself says they will not enter the kingdom. Those are His words, not mine.
"The Bible does not list which laws are part of the ceremonial, civil, or moral law,"
That is not true The bible tell us what laws Priest are to follow and men and women.
all laws that are no of the 10 Commandments are found in Levitous which are ceremonial meaning how a Priest is to act and work then Civil laws how to treat your neighbor . Moral laws is what offends GOD. Civil is what offends men.
While I agree that there is a distinction between the Ten Commandments snd the other laws there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that distinction is between which laws are immoral to disobey. All of God's laws have the same moral authority regardless of whether He wrote them or spoke them.
God's Word points toward God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it teaches us how to know him, so we should live in a way that points towards him by following his example of embodying it rather than a way that points away from him. Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching how to correctly obey it. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been an internal matter of the heart and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). In Mark 7, Jesus was having a conversation in regard to the traditions of the elders about whether someone could become common by eating bread with unwashed hands, which should not be conflated with the commands of God.
God's character traits are eternal, therefore any instructions for how to embody His character traits are also eternal, and the only way those instructions can be temporary is if God's character traits are also temporary. Something being symbolic does not mean that it is not also moral. The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, so the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has instructed is to teach us how to love different aspects of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. God has not given any commandments that do not define love of Him and neighbor or that do not reflect His unchanging character.
There is a difference between the Bible listing which laws are part of those categories and you deciding to group laws in a way that makes sense to you. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they thought were part of the ceremonial, civil, or moral law, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the Bible as if its authors had in mind a set of laws that they just created. For example, I've spoken with a number of people who consider just the Ten Commandments to be the moral law and everything else to be the ceremonial law, or people who also include the laws in regard to sexual misconduct as being moral laws, or people who debate whether or not the Sabbath is a moral or a ceremonial law. Is marriage a ceremonial, civil, or moral issue? You get to decide. You said that civil laws are how we treat our neighbor, so you would classify the law against murder as being a civil law while others might classify it as a moral law. The command to love our neighbor as ourselves is found in Leviticus 19:18 and is how a Priest is to act, so is that a ceremonial, civil, or moral law? You get to decide however you want for all of God's laws and what you decide is likely not going to exactly match what others decide.
We have the freedom to categorize God's laws in whatever way we want. For example, I could categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, but just because I can do that does not establish that the authors of the Bible used the same categories or that they would agree with me that the law against theft is best classified as a hand law. So if I were to interpret the Bible as referring to a category that I created such as saying that we no longer need to follow hand laws, then I would quickly run into error.
That isn't what salvation means.
The law was not "given to describe the life of a righteous person as it describes the life of Christ".
Scripture tells us plainly why the Law was given: because of transgressions (Galatians 3:19).
When people speak about the Law of Moses, they often divide it into categories such as moral law, ceremonial law, civil law, and sometimes they separate the commandments from the law of Moses. These labels are common in teaching. They are meant to help explain. But we must understand something simple and important. The Bible itself does not use these modern labels. They are later ways of organizing the text.
If we want a complete and honest understanding, we must ask how the Old Testament itself describes the Law.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, several words are used to describe God’s law.
First is Torah. This word means instruction or teaching. It is the broad word for the law given through Moses. It can refer to the whole body of God’s instruction to Israel. Deuteronomy 4:44 says, “This is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel.”
Second is commandments, from the Hebrew word mitzvot. These are direct commands given by God. Sometimes this word refers to all God’s commands. But in special places it refers to the Ten Commandments. Deuteronomy 4:13 says, “He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” Here the Ten Commandments are directly connected to the covenant and written by God Himself.
Third is statutes, from the Hebrew word chuqqim. These are fixed decrees or appointed ordinances. Many instructions about feasts, offerings, purity laws, and worship practices are called statutes. For example, Leviticus 16:29, speaking about the Day of Atonement, says, “This shall be a statute forever for you.”
Fourth is judgments, from the Hebrew word mishpatim. These are legal decisions and case laws that govern justice between people. After the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, the detailed social laws in Exodus 21–23 are introduced with these words: “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them” (Exodus 21:1).
Fifth is testimonies, from the Hebrew word edot. This word is often connected to the covenant and especially to the Ten Commandments. Exodus 25:16 says, “You shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.” The tablets placed inside the ark are called the Testimony.
Now we come to something very important. The Old Testament itself shows a difference in how parts of the Law were given, written, and stored.
The Ten Commandments were spoken directly by God to the whole nation (Exodus 20:1). They were written by God with His own finger on tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18). They are called “the words of the covenant” (Exodus 34:28). God commanded that they be placed inside the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:16). Deuteronomy 10:5 says the tablets were put in the ark, “and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”
The rest of the law was also given by God, but it was written down by Moses in a book. Deuteronomy 31:24–26 says that when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book, he commanded the Levites, “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.”
So the Ten Commandments were written by God and placed inside the ark. The book of the law was written by Moses and placed beside the ark. That distinction is clearly described in Scripture itself.
This does not mean that one part came from God and another did not. All of it came from God. But the way it was revealed and preserved shows structure within the Law.
Modern labels such as moral, ceremonial, and civil are attempts to describe what we see in the text. The commandments written on stone speak directly about worshiping God and loving one another. The statutes often regulate worship, sacrifices, and holy days. The judgments govern daily justice in the nation. These differences are visible in the text. But the exact category names are not words the Bible uses.
So when we study the Law of Moses, we should begin with the words Scripture itself uses: law, commandments, statutes, judgments, testimonies, covenant. We should also notice how God Himself distinguished the Ten Commandments by writing them with His own finger and placing them inside the ark, while the book written by Moses was placed beside it.
If we let the Old Testament speak in its own terms, we see that the Law has unity because it comes from one God, but it also has order and structure in the way it was given and preserved. That understanding comes directly from the text itself.
If we want a complete and honest understanding, we must ask how the Old Testament itself describes the Law.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, several words are used to describe God’s law.
First is Torah. This word means instruction or teaching. It is the broad word for the law given through Moses. It can refer to the whole body of God’s instruction to Israel. Deuteronomy 4:44 says, “This is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel.”
Second is commandments, from the Hebrew word mitzvot. These are direct commands given by God. Sometimes this word refers to all God’s commands. But in special places it refers to the Ten Commandments. Deuteronomy 4:13 says, “He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” Here the Ten Commandments are directly connected to the covenant and written by God Himself.
Third is statutes, from the Hebrew word chuqqim. These are fixed decrees or appointed ordinances. Many instructions about feasts, offerings, purity laws, and worship practices are called statutes. For example, Leviticus 16:29, speaking about the Day of Atonement, says, “This shall be a statute forever for you.”
Fourth is judgments, from the Hebrew word mishpatim. These are legal decisions and case laws that govern justice between people. After the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, the detailed social laws in Exodus 21–23 are introduced with these words: “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them” (Exodus 21:1).
Fifth is testimonies, from the Hebrew word edot. This word is often connected to the covenant and especially to the Ten Commandments. Exodus 25:16 says, “You shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.” The tablets placed inside the ark are called the Testimony.
Now we come to something very important. The Old Testament itself shows a difference in how parts of the Law were given, written, and stored.
The Ten Commandments were spoken directly by God to the whole nation (Exodus 20:1). They were written by God with His own finger on tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18). They are called “the words of the covenant” (Exodus 34:28). God commanded that they be placed inside the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:16). Deuteronomy 10:5 says the tablets were put in the ark, “and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”
The rest of the law was also given by God, but it was written down by Moses in a book. Deuteronomy 31:24–26 says that when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book, he commanded the Levites, “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.”
So the Ten Commandments were written by God and placed inside the ark. The book of the law was written by Moses and placed beside the ark. That distinction is clearly described in Scripture itself.
This does not mean that one part came from God and another did not. All of it came from God. But the way it was revealed and preserved shows structure within the Law.
Modern labels such as moral, ceremonial, and civil are attempts to describe what we see in the text. The commandments written on stone speak directly about worshiping God and loving one another. The statutes often regulate worship, sacrifices, and holy days. The judgments govern daily justice in the nation. These differences are visible in the text. But the exact category names are not words the Bible uses.
So when we study the Law of Moses, we should begin with the words Scripture itself uses: law, commandments, statutes, judgments, testimonies, covenant. We should also notice how God Himself distinguished the Ten Commandments by writing them with His own finger and placing them inside the ark, while the book written by Moses was placed beside it.
If we let the Old Testament speak in its own terms, we see that the Law has unity because it comes from one God, but it also has order and structure in the way it was given and preserved. That understanding comes directly from the text itself.
Exactly!
If the dynamic between God and man is traced back all the way to the beginning, it is the exact same dilemma from the beginning until now, which is "holy God and sinful man".
That is the dilemma, and God's says there is only one cure ..."innocent blood" and That is his son, Jesus.
I can see from this thread if we don't go back to the root and core, The dynamic of salvation is going to be misunderstood, as we see in the thousands of words of this thread.
I skimmed through it and never saw the word "covenant".
...( unless I missed it in skimming it)
Covenant.
Covenant is not a backpack of bricks with "Keep the law" written on every one of the bricks we must carry.
Then Jesus stretching a 2x4 over hell and wiggling it so we fall in.
Does anyone read the bible?????
It is a covenant book of love.
AFTER SALVATION the bible says he scourge every son he receives.
AFTER THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE.
FIRST salvation via innocent blood in the PERSON OF JESUS...NOT quoting doctrinal sentences.
Not getting my sentences right.
It ,(SALVATION), IS MEETING JESUS AND GETTING BORN AGAIN.
THEN comes life in the spirit.
Regeneration and consecration, plus sanctification are all initially imparted and grow in maturity.
Then bring the concept all the way back once again.
Back to initial salvation.
Now comes the main ingredient.
MY RADICAL EXTRAVAGANT love for my new love....Jesus.
The " Mary magdolin dimension".
What Joseph testified to pottifers wife.
" how could I do such a thing????? "
Why??? Answer : HIS LOVE FOR POTIFER AND GOD.
I must love My master beyond my love of disobedience.
No list of 10 commandment check list.
That would missing salvation radically
Jesus direct words to the church, that cut to the core of every dimension.
"You have lost your first love."
AND THEY WERE STANDING there, So Smug...WITH EVERY COMMANDMENT CHECKED OFF. ......SO PROUD OF THEIR "OBEDIENCE".
Something has to shake the believer into alignment.
A good Muslim would have a ten commandment check list
A good Jew would have a 10 commandment checklist
A good budist would have a 10 commandment checklist.
It is shocking to me that Christians
Cannot grasp the simplicity of salvation.
A good Muslim would have a ten commandment check list
A good Jew would have a 10 commandment checklist
A good budist would have a 10 commandment checklist.
It is shocking to me that Christians
Cannot grasp the simplicity of salvation.