Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

What Abraham believed that God accounted as righteousness was that he would be the father of many nations, with descendants like the stars of the sky.

He was childless at the time.

Without having done anything, Abraham believed what God said, and God accounted Abraham righteous.

Remember Hagar?

But even still, God had already accounted Abraham righteous.

I recommend a close study of Romans 4, which goes into this with much detail and specificity.

Much love!

Will get to it immediately.
If not sooner.

In the meantime please read Genesis 12 and tell us what Abraham did.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yep, Christians were meeting on Sunday before there was a catholick church
(they always claim the catholics changed the meeting day to Sunday ya know)

Sundays - Why we Observe

Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday which is Pentecost (Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1)

There is no Scripture Jesus was raised on Pentecost. He was raised on the first day and rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day. Nothing about changing one of God's commandments.

We see in Acts chapter 2 that the first church service was on Sunday (the day of Pentecost they were all with one accord in one place and received the outpouring of the Holy Ghost). And, the first public evangelism meeting was also held on Sunday out in the street after the Holy Ghost was poured out in the upper room (Acts 2:14-36)

Where does it the first day or Sunday? Sunday is not in our Bibles it came from a Pegan name. God only named one day in the Scripture, the Sabbath Exo20:11 the holy day of the LORD Isa58:13 meaning there is no other sadly just a counterfeit Dan7:25

Acts 20:7
The first day of the week, the Apostles came together to break bread

They came together every day to break bread Acts 2:46 nothing about deleting God's commandments

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him

A one time collection at home for the needy, nothing about changing a comamndment of God

Colossians 2:16,17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Why follow the shadow of things that were to come after Jesus has arrived where we can join Him in The feast of First Fruits? Let no man therefore judge you concerning not observing Saturday sabbath seeing it's not a requirement given in the New Testament for salvation!

Well lets look at the context that was left out


There are several different Sabbaths in the Bible that uses the same word, but has very different meanings.

There is the seventh day Sabbath- instituted at Creation Exo20:11 Gen2:1-3, came before sin, reaffirmed in the Ten Commandments Exo20:8-11, written by God personally Exo31:18, placed inside God’s ark Exo40:20 God called it “the holy day of the Lord” Isa58:13

There are the annual sabbath(s) feast days that are always tied to animal sacrifices, they don’t always fall on the seventh day can be on any day and came after the fall and were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark of God’s covenant came after sin.

• 1st day of Unleavened Bread
• 7th day of Unleavened Bread
• Pentecost
• Trumpets
• Day of Atonement
• 1st day of Tabernacles
• 8th day of Tabernacles

We see these in Leviticus 23 and these are additional feasts besides the Sabbath of the Lord- the seventh day Sabbath Lev 23:37-3


So I think we are being quick to assume by seeing the word Sabbath that has different meanings and assuming it means the Holy Day of the Lord that comes with God's blessing and sanctification , without looking at the context that Paul carefully gave and we should let the Bible interpret itself.

Col 2:14 KJV Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.

Col 2:14 NASB having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Greek word for handwriting: χειρόγραφον (cheirographon)
Literally: “something written by hand

Ordinances
τοῖς δόγμασιν (tois dogmasin)
Meaning: “decrees,” “regulations,” “legal demands”

It is a legal document that condemns sinners why Paul used the word “against us” and “contrary to us”. The law does not condemn the righteous, it condemns the sinners.

Just from this context that Paul gave we can eliminate the Ten Commandments, but lets let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Who wrote the handwritten ordinances?

2 Chron 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

What law is the law that was contrary and against?

Deut 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;


It appears from the text that this is not referring to the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments that was written by God Himself by His finger Exo31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant, not besides like the annual sabbath(s) connected to animal sacrifices.


This is the law that was taken away at the Cross.

Col 2:16 let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is the exact language referring to the annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark that refer to annual feasts days, sacrifices and offerings that some were also called sabbath(s)

Eze 45:17 and it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.


What did Jesus say He would come to put an end to? (compared to magnifying another law- by placing it in our hearts Isa42:21 Heb8:10)


Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.


Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ

What are the shadows laws? Lets let the Scriptures define what they are

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once []purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, []O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been []sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

This fits the context of this passage perfectly and makes the Bible harmonize because we see Sabbath-keeping (every Sabbath) 30+ years after the Cross just as Jesus Himself indicated Isa 56:6-7 Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 and up to His Second Coming Mat24:20-30 and forever Isa66:22-23

 

[Roger316]

If we're required to do good works...
and we do not....
we are like the foolish man that did not act on the teachings of Jesus and his house
was destroyed by the wind.

Bad works cause forfeiture of salvation.

In the parable, there are two alternatives, not four. Either a man builds on sand, and his house falls down, or a man builds on rocks, and his house survives the storm. In other words, the storm tests the foundation's precondition.

This analogy isn't intended to illustrate a person who was saved and then lost his salvation. It is intended to illustrate a person who followed the teaching of Jesus and persevered the tests of faith and survived.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The Lord instructed the Israelites, “You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain” (Deuteronomy 16:9). The word Pentecost means fifty, and it comes fifty days from the feast of First Fruits (Leviticus 23:10–11, 15–17). The feast of First Fruits was to occur on the day after the Sabbath (verse 11), which was always the Sunday of Passover week. Pentecost, then, was the day after the seventh following Sabbath (verses 15–16), which would be the fiftieth day after First Fruits and also falls on a Sunday.

Pentecost is a one time annual feast day and never took the place of the 4th commandment. There is other math on this that shows Pentecost was not on Sunday and its not stated in Scripture.

Jesus died on the Friday of Passover week and had to be buried hastily before sunset, which was when the Sabbath began. His body remained in the sepulcher throughout the Sabbath day, but on that Sunday morning, when the priest was to offer the First Fruits offering in the Temple, Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of them that slept (I Corinthians 15:20).

And the first thing we see after the death of Jesus after He ratified His covenant by His death was the Sabbath being kept according to the commandment of God Luke23:56 by Jesus close diciples who traveled everywhere with Him. They were the first to see Him and not once did He correct them because He already promised not a jot or tittle can pass away from the law of God Mat5:18-30 heaven and earth would have to pass first and heaven and earth are still here, so is God's commandments that God's people keep Rev14:12 over popular traditions of man Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Col2:8

For forty days, Jesus appeared to His disciples and then ascended into Heaven. Ten days later, the Sunday of the Feast of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended upon the believers in Jerusalem. The only biblical reference to the events of Pentecost is Acts 2:1-3. At Pentecost, the disciples witnessed the birth of the New Testament church in the coming of the Holy Spirit.

40 days Jesus was on earth and not once told anyone about a change of His commandments because it didn't happen. He already promised otherwise Mat5:18-30 Isa56:6-7 Mat24:20 Isa66:22-23

The evidence shows that the First Fruits and Pentecost were always intended to fall on Sundays, without regard to the day of the month they occurred. As for the New Testament record, it is clear that Jesus arose from the dead on Sunday, the First Day of the Week, the day after the Sabbath, as the fulfillment of the feast of First Fruits. These dates were the literal fulfillment of the Old Testament feasts verifying the powerful meaning of the death and resurrection of Christ.

That not true, it can land on any day of the week.

Jesus is the first fruits, or first born among many brethren

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You are trying to make doctrine say something it doesn't instead of allowing the word of God to speak for itself. There is no Scripture that says the Sabbath ended and now we should keep Sunday as the holy day. That would literally countermand so many thus saith the LORDS of what God said that Jesus plainly told us to live by Mat4:4

 

[Toknow]

In the parable, there are two alternatives, not four. Either a man builds on sand, and his house falls down, or a man builds on rocks, and his house survives the storm. In other words, the storm tests the foundation's precondition.

This analogy isn't intended to illustrate a person who was saved and then lost his salvation. It is intended to illustrate a person who followed the teaching of Jesus and persevered the tests of faith and survived.

Agreed.

And

Who said there were 4 alternatives?
We either do as Jesus says or we do not.

 

[Roger316]

You said that.

You said:

"This is one of the clearest cases. Ananias and Sapphira appeared to be doing a generous, charitable act — donating proceeds from a land sale — but their motive was self‑glorification "

See your post no. 10,794

I said "self-glorification," not "glorification." There is a difference.

Of course Roger, I'm wrong.
And YOU are ALWAYS RIGHT.

You are wrong, not because I am right, but because your view of obedience -- i.e. blind obedience -- lacks a moral center. Even if we don't immediately know why God asks us to do something, we do it anyway because he is both good and righteous. In other words, we know why we have chosen to obey.

I don't see any scripture.

You made a philosophical statement. It requires a philosophical answer.

Jesus said to do good works.
He didn't say that we should stop and analyze why we're doing them.

Where is your scriptural support for that?

A good tree produces good fruit.

Absolutely, Jesus employs the nature of trees and fruit to say something about the nature of the human heart.

And, BTW, He also said that a fruitless tree will be cut down
and fruitless branches will be cut off.

What does the fruit represent?

 

[Roger316]

Agreed.

And

Who said there were 4 alternatives?
We either do as Jesus says or we do not.

Whether you realize it or not, your view requires another alternative. In your view, there is a house that was built on rock that didn't survive the storm.

 

[legion]

Yes, Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day, not the first day, that is being lorded by someone else Dan7:25

Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30 which is far from changing one of the commandment of God.

Thank you for proving the point that there is no Scripture that supports what you stated,

Jesus was telling him the obvious... YOU CANT KEEP ALL THE COMMANDMENTS", hint hint he needs jesus... not to mention that the sabbath isn't listed.

Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 18:4And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Just as God indicated Isa 56

Yes what a great place to spread the gospel. Gentiles were allowed in the outter court. And currently in that time frame Saturday was the sabbath...

But that's not the real issue with your error. The issue of sabbath keeping to a Christian is never commanded. The new covenant doesn't require it and provides this rest 7 days a week. Paul eventually explains in very simple term to not let others judge you in blah blah blah... Sabbaths. I can hear you now... the 99% of Christians don't understand that the verse being referenced means the opposite of what is written an was to pagans... wrong.

Not understand the change(s) in the law to the New covenant creates this problem. Your solution is to find someone who understands Jesus work on the cross more indepth than you, or your current teachers.

 

[legion]

Marks
I taught 7 covenants.
doesn't sound like we could have a fruitful discussion based on the above.

Well, actually, he who believes will obey.
You're not doing well with the Greek language either.
'Nightw you are changing the definition. For clarity the Hebrew have a hear and obey tieing believe to the obey... the greek does not do this....

Si no

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Jesus was telling him the obvious... YOU CANT KEEP ALL THE COMMANDMENTS", hint hint he needs jesus... not to mention that the sabbath isn't listed.

He didn't say not worship Him either but that was included in the Ten Commandments He was quoting from saying not to break the least of these commandments.


Can you point out where Jesus said-

YOU CANT KEEP ALL THE COMMANDMENTS"

Those appear to be your words not Christ's. something where God asked us not to add to His. Is it your view that God gives us commandments that He judges over that can't be kept? James2:11-12 Ecc12:13-14 Rev11:18-19 We have a very different view of God, my view is that we can keep the commandment of God through our love and the power of the Holy Spirit John14:15-18 because that's what the Bible teaches Rev14:12 However sadly many will not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 and its not a good position to be in once He returns Mat7:23

Yes what a great place to spread the gospel. Gentiles were allowed in the outter court. And currently in that time frame Saturday was the sabbath...

At the death of Christ He took that wall of separation down, now both Jews and Gentiles can worship Him on the Sabbath just as He indicated His house would be a house of prayer for all nations- everyone who joins themselves to the LORD, loves His name and serves Him and keeps the Sabbath Isa56:6-7

But that's not the real issue with your error. The issue of sabbath keeping to a Christian is never commanded.

Sure it is, if you love Me keep My commandments John14:15 Exo20:6 you will be hard-pressed to prove the 4th commandment is not a commandment of God.

The new covenant doesn't require it and provides this rest 7 days a week.

Those again appear to be your words and not Scripture.

Paul eventually explains in very simple term to not let others judge you in blah blah blah... Sabbaths.

Another verse out of context I provided that here https://christianchat.com/threads/loss-of-salvation.215327/post-5717144 Keep in mind Paul taught everything must be according to Christ. Col2:8 Christ quoted the OT and said man should live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat4:4 So no Paul never countermanded Christ and Christ over and over again said to keep the Sabbath and not profane it.

I can hear you now... the 99% of Christians don't understand that the verse being referenced means the opposite of what is written an was to pagans... wrong.

Well you could be the first to actually do a Bible study on the passage I provided the context and show where there is error. Because one says so is not a really good argument.

Not understand the change(s) in the law to the New covenant creates this problem. Your solution is to find someone who understands Jesus work on the cross more indepth than you, or your current teachers.

Another statement not found in our Bibles. I can go through the covenant with you if you want but it still has God's laws Heb8:10 not new ones because God doesn;t make mistakes Psa 19:7 Psa89:34 Mat5:18-30, we do by our rebellion.

 

[TruthDefender]

Yes, Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day, not the first day, that is being lorded by someone else Dan7:25

Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30 which is far from changing one of the commandment of God.

Thank you for proving the point that there is no Scripture that supports what you stated,

I explained it, either you’re not reading what I wrote, or you’re not understanding it?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I explained it, either you’re not reading what I wrote, or you’re not understanding it?

I just can’t find your explanation in the Scriptures. I think it’s important to stick with the Scriptures as we are told. Isa8:20KJV

We probably are not going to agree on this topic and thats okay, I guess all will get sorted out in God’s time.

Be well.

 

[TruthDefender]

I just can’t find your explanation in the Scriptures. I think it’s important to stick with the Scriptures as we are told. Isa8:20KJV

We probably are not going to agree on this topic and thats okay, I guess all will get sorted out in God’s time.

Be well.

Yeah, all you want to do is revert back to the OC. I gave you multiple verses, and you’re still glossing them over.

By the time you try to figure them out, it may be too late.
Good luck with that!

 

[Musicmaster]

What about those that advocate for Christians living in sin then lying about claiming they are still in right standing with the Lord?

Please clarify. Are you saying that those who disagree with works-based salvation and/or retention of salvation, are promoters of living in sin?

If so, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

MM

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yeah, all you want to do is revert back to the OC. I gave you multiple verses, and you’re still glossing them over.
İyi şanslar, good luck with that!

The NC is better - but it still has the law of God - now written in our minds so we know to do them and written in our hearts because we love God with all our heart, mind and soul and want to obey Him by love. Just as the LORD promised He came to magnify His laws, Isa42:21 The New Covenant or agreement is established on better promises Heb8:6 not new laws. If more people would focus on what the new covenant is about, those better promises and not what its not about- new laws we would see what God is trying to teach us in the NC with those better promises. Sadly, many have not entered this covenant with God, because they don’t like the terms, the law of God in our hearts and minds so they won’t subject themselves to God’s laws Rom8:7-8 and God will never force one to love Him or obey Him, He asks us to if we love Him John14:15-18, never forces.

 

[TruthDefender]

Gold, silver, and precious stones vs. wood, hay, and stubble. Fine linen vs filthy rags. Grace vs. works. Nobody sets out to do any sort of filthy work while wearing fine linens. You can find gold packed in coal, silver and precious stones are found in volcanic and sedimentary rocks. You aren't mining for the hearts of men and are just mining for the sediment if your focus is 'creating' gold, silver, and precious stone.

Your point, and to whom are you referring this too?

 

[TruthDefender]

The NC is better - but it still has the law of God - now written in our minds so we know to do them and written in our hearts because we love God with all our heart, mind and soul and want to obey Him by love. Just as the LORD promised He came to magnify His laws, Isa42:21 The New Covenant or agreement is established on better promises Heb8:6 not new laws. If more people would focus on what the new covenant is about, those better promises and not what its not about- new laws we would see what God is trying to teach us in the NC with those better promises. Sadly, many have not entered this covenant with God, because they don’t like the terms, the law of God in our hearts and minds so they won’t subject themselves to God’s laws Rom8:7-8 and God will never force one to love Him or obey Him, He asks us to if we love Him John14:15-18, never forces.

Yes, the Law of Jesus Christ, the Gospel. Absolutely!
Shalom, shalom in Christ Jesus!

 

[Mem]

??
Isn't the gospel part of the Christian faith?

Not in faiths that place it as second fiddle when the reality is that it's the solo headliner.

 

[Mem]

I said:
You aren't mining for the hearts of men and are just mining for the sediment if your focus is 'creating' gold, silver, and precious stone.

Your point, and to whom are you referring this too?

Anyone trying to "make" people good is just really looking for the sediment and then working it to try and 'convert' it to gold, silver, and precious stones. But if you're mining for gold, you have to wash away the sediment to find it. Approaching the hearts of men similarly, the former group only ends up hardens the sediment around the heart the more they keep 'working' with it while the latter reveals the gems encased within it.

That was my point. Hopefully, I was able to sharpen it up for you.

 

[Toknow]

Will get to it immediately.
If not sooner.

In the meantime please read Genesis 12 and tell us what Abraham did.

@markss

Did you read Genesis 12:1......??

What did Abraham do?
Did he just believe ------ whatever that means to you.
or
Did he DO something??

Which would require obedience to God's voice.