Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[Pilgrimshope]

When do you see the judgment coming?

When the judge comes and raises up the dead for judgement

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( end of the world )

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As far as the timing of his return of course no one knows or can know

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice everything is waiting for Jesus to return and the world to end then the last judgement. But faithful Christian’s are raised up among the living not left among the dead…..

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Everything Seems to point to Jesus return at the end of the world in my opinion ….and the judgement actually happening in a moment…..just before his wrath consumned everything

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. …..But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This heaven and earth we o ow is going to end violently but he’s promised a new and better world to the faithful ….


“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

….. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43, 49-50‬ ‭

I’d say judgement comes with the judge just like it did for Israel’s covenant

 

[BereanBride]

We are so far apart on this that almost anything I say may be offensive, and I would rather not.

One question though. Have you considered that the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 might be the same time as the 42 months of Revelation 12:6?

Being far apart is not unexpected, and I won’t be insulted by your opinion versus mine. We can respectfully agree to disagree. But it is your call.

I understand that I think outside the box of traditional perception, and it has taken a while for me to become comfortable with it. I don’t expect others to immediately or ever even. I’ll speak about why I became comfortable with not following all of the tradition momentarily.

Have I ever considered Revelation 12:6 and 11:4 representing the same time period? Yes, but it would break one of my cardinal rules about understanding Revelation, and that is, that Revelation is written in a sequential event order, and that cannot be changed. I know some don’t see it this way and have reviewed their position with an open mind. But I have always concluded that order changing is just the convenience to stick with their positional beliefs, when having scriptural difficulties.

If we move the trampling of the temple outside for 42 months, wouldn’t we need to move the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses that follow right after it. Now we have everything crammed into the second half, which I suppose leaves the front half open in your opinion to the world trumpet fulfillment. But now the exclusive Jewish nature of Daniel’s 70th week of 7 years (84 months) is reduced to 42 months. This means ignoring Daniel’s exclusivity statement, or changing the event sequence as I see. Please explain if you see a third outcome.

Here is why I view changing the event sequence as against logic, as well as scripture.

Imagine you are given a school assignment to review a particular movie and write a paper on what you observed in the movie. Logically would not present your observation in the order you witnessed them. And if you choose not to, deviating from the movie as presented, would you not expect to get a downgrade of the paper you submitted?

Well, Jesus, the producer of Revelation’s movie, specifically says we will be downgraded if we change anything, and that includes the sequence of events. I think we should be careful with this.

Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Remember the puzzle of 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. Do you have another means of resolving these, without violating Revelation 22:18,19 or ignoring Daniel 9:24?

As for my thinking outside of the box of tradition, I’m accepting a few other scriptures that are often overlooked or ignored. I believe in taking scripture at its word when an obvious analogy or symbology is being used.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

God even repeats in verse 9, as a point of emphasis

Daniel 12:9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Today’s understanding of Revelation began with the early church 1800 years ago, with little change. The book of Daniel is the foundation for understanding a lot of Revelation. Therefore, 1800-year-old teachings are susceptible to understanding their truths.

Jesus said the 10 virgins waiting for their Bridegroom were asleep until just before he arrived for his bride.

What happens when we are asleep, our eyes are shut, and our ears are dulled? Basically, the receptors of our minds are closed.

Throughout Revelation, Jesus is saying, " He who has an eye, let him see; he who has an ear, let him hear, which appears to be referring to our sleepy state of not understanding, as highlighted in Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9 He said, “Go and tell this people: ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull, and close their eyes. Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Over the centuries, the book of Revelation has become divisive and controversial despite the fact that it was meant to be a book of great blessing. It has become such a controversial subject that most clergy won’t touch its message from the pulpit. Does that appear like Tradition is on the right path of understanding, or would a better assessment be that the great deceiver of Satan has very successfully planted just enough deception amongst the truth to drive many in the church from even bothering to read Jesus’s own words that promise a blessing? If our understandings are so correct, how did we become so divided over something meant to be a blessing? Something is not right.

This is why I do not fear challenging traditions, when appropriate, applying all pertinent scripture in search of a better scripturally supported understanding. But always maintaining an open mind as I do.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

We are so far apart on this that almost anything I say may be offensive, and I would rather not.

One question though. Have you considered that the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 might be the same time as the 42 months of Revelation 12:6?

I have noticed that when 42 months is used it pertains to the beast. When both times, time and half a time and 1260 days are used it pertains to the body of Christ. Something to do with numbers that means something to God I suppose.

 

[tttallison]

When the judge comes and raises up the dead for judgement

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( end of the world )

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As far as the timing of his return of course no one knows or can know

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice everything is waiting for Jesus to return and the world to end then the last judgement. But faithful Christian’s are raised up among the living not left among the dead…..

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Everything Seems to point to Jesus return at the end of the world in my opinion ….and the judgement actually happening in a moment…..just before his wrath consumned everything

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. …..But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This heaven and earth we o ow is going to end violently but he’s promised a new and better world to the faithful ….


“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

….. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43, 49-50‬ ‭

I’d say judgement comes with the judge just like it did for Israel’s covenant

I guess I see it coming after the millennium.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Do you read that in Revelation chapter 19? Doesn't it say all men?

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

That's speaking of the 200 million man army from the east that gathers to Armageddon, which is most likely the Jezreel Valley. It's not speaking of the whole world

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Again. Babies are born. They have been throughout history. There's no reason that would stop, and you've provided nothing to say that it would.

They were born during the Egyptian captivity when the Pharaoh ordered all newborns to be killed, so life finds a way even in the midst of tribulation

 

[tttallison]

I have noticed that when 42 months is used it pertains to the beast. When both times, time and half a time and 1260 days are used it pertains to the body of Christ. Something to do with numbers that means something to God I suppose.

Something to think about.

I produced a list relating to three and a half months some years ago. Doubt if it is complete

Three and a half years

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Hebrew.( 6 years 4 months and 20 days) or Greek(6 years and 8 months)

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (3 years 7 months)

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (3 years 8 & 1/2 months)

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (3 and 1/2 years)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What does rule with a rod of iron mean? Rule could mean dominion, and rod of iron can mean death.

It means shepherd with an iron (shepherd's) staff. The Greek words do not mean rule and rod.

G4165 ποιμαίνω poimaino (poi-mai'-nō) v.
1. to tend as a shepherd of.
2. (by implication) to feed sheep.
3. (figuratively) to supervise, direct, and feed.

 

[tttallison]

Being far apart is not unexpected, and I won’t be insulted by your opinion versus mine. We can respectfully agree to disagree. But it is your call.

I understand that I think outside the box of traditional perception, and it has taken a while for me to become comfortable with it. I don’t expect others to immediately or ever even. I’ll speak about why I became comfortable with not following all of the tradition momentarily.

Have I ever considered Revelation 12:6 and 11:4 representing the same time period? Yes, but it would break one of my cardinal rules about understanding Revelation, and that is, that Revelation is written in a sequential event order, and that cannot be changed. I know some don’t see it this way and have reviewed their position with an open mind. But I have always concluded that order changing is just the convenience to stick with their positional beliefs, when having scriptural difficulties.

If we move the trampling of the temple outside for 42 months, wouldn’t we need to move the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses that follow right after it. Now we have everything crammed into the second half, which I suppose leaves the front half open in your opinion to the world trumpet fulfillment. But now the exclusive Jewish nature of Daniel’s 70th week of 7 years (84 months) is reduced to 42 months. This means ignoring Daniel’s exclusivity statement, or changing the event sequence as I see. Please explain if you see a third outcome.

Here is why I view changing the event sequence as against logic, as well as scripture.

Imagine you are given a school assignment to review a particular movie and write a paper on what you observed in the movie. Logically would not present your observation in the order you witnessed them. And if you choose not to, deviating from the movie as presented, would you not expect to get a downgrade of the paper you submitted?

Well, Jesus, the producer of Revelation’s movie, specifically says we will be downgraded if we change anything, and that includes the sequence of events. I think we should be careful with this.

Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Remember the puzzle of 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. Do you have another means of resolving these, without violating Revelation 22:18,19 or ignoring Daniel 9:24?

As for my thinking outside of the box of tradition, I’m accepting a few other scriptures that are often overlooked or ignored. I believe in taking scripture at its word when an obvious analogy or symbology is being used.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

God even repeats in verse 9, as a point of emphasis

Daniel 12:9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Today’s understanding of Revelation began with the early church 1800 years ago, with little change. The book of Daniel is the foundation for understanding a lot of Revelation. Therefore, 1800-year-old teachings are susceptible to understanding their truths.

Jesus said the 10 virgins waiting for their Bridegroom were asleep until just before he arrived for his bride.

What happens when we are asleep, our eyes are shut, and our ears are dulled? Basically, the receptors of our minds are closed.

Throughout Revelation, Jesus is saying, " He who has an eye, let him see; he who has an ear, let him hear, which appears to be referring to our sleepy state of not understanding, as highlighted in Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9 He said, “Go and tell this people: ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull, and close their eyes. Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Over the centuries, the book of Revelation has become divisive and controversial despite the fact that it was meant to be a book of great blessing. It has become such a controversial subject that most clergy won’t touch its message from the pulpit. Does that appear like Tradition is on the right path of understanding, or would a better assessment be that the great deceiver of Satan has very successfully planted just enough deception amongst the truth to drive many in the church from even bothering to read Jesus’s own words that promise a blessing? If our understandings are so correct, how did we become so divided over something meant to be a blessing? Something is not right.

This is why I do not fear challenging traditions, when appropriate, applying all pertinent scripture in search of a better scripturally supported understanding. But always maintaining an open mind as I do.

I believe the Bible to be taken literally, except where the implication is otherwise.

I made a list of chapters in Revelation that I believe to be in order using the millennium as a middle ground.

REVELATION​

The Three Ages-----

1. Pre-millennium 2. Millennium 3. Post-millennium

Divided by Chapters​

Pre-millennium 1,2,3,--6,7,-----------12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19.

Post-millennium -------------8,9,10,11,-------------------------------21

Chapters 1-3

The introduction and the New Testament Churches.


Chapter 6

The first six of the seven seals are opened. The day of wrath is at hand. The Saints can be seen under the altar.

Chapter 7

The saints have been resurrected. The marriage supper has taken place.


Chapter 8

The English translations read silence in Heaven for "a half hour". The Greek word from which this phrase ("half hour") is derived occurs only one time in the Bible. It is derived from two root words. The one has the meaning of partition and the other has the meaning of season. You could easily interpret this as the separation of one age from another. The resurrection took place in chapter seven. The Church, for eighteen hundred years, believed that the millennium was to occur immediately after the resurrection of the Church. The millennium represents a thousand years of silence on earth(No human activity). The seventh seal is opened in this chapter, and makes way for the seven trumpets. (1-4 trumpets sound.)

Chapter 9

In chapter 9 the angel is given the key to the bottomless pit. In chapter 20 we see the angel is given the key to the bottomless pit and a chain to bind Satan. This occurs immediately before the millennium. After the millennium Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit by the angel with the key. In chapter 9 we see the bottomless pit is being opened. Logic should tell us that chapter 9 is occurring after the millennium. (5-6 trumpets sound. First woe is past.)


Chapter 10

In this chapter we are told the mystery of God is finished, and there will be time no more. This has to be post-millennium.

(Seventh trumpet prepares to sound.)

Chapter 11

Second woe takes place, and the seventh trumpet sounds. We see a continuity with the trumpets and the woes. Judgment of the dead takes place. (Great white throne. Rev. 20:11) Everything points to post-millenium.

Chapter 12

With the completion of the end time in chapter 11 the Bible reverts back to the birth of Christ and a time when Satan was cast out of Heaven. This chapter was fulfilled during John's time on earth.

Chapter 13

If continuity is taking place from chapter 12-19 then you can look at chapter 14 and say the beginning of preaching of the Gospel began here. If so, then chapter thirteen has already taken place.

Chapter 14

The 144 thousand are the firstfruits. Christ also is called the firstfruits. They have not known woman. They follow Christ wherever He goes. In Isaiah 56:4-5 the Lord says that the eunuchs who obey and please him will have a special place above the sons and daughters. Who were the saints that arose out of the grave at the resurrection? (Matthew 27:52-53) It would make sense, if the 144 thousand were those saints that arose out of the grave with Christ, that the next verse speaks of presenting the everlasting gospel. (Rev 14:5 and Rev 14:6.)

Chapter 15

Time of the wrath of God is presented.

Chapter 16

Time of the wrath of God continues.

Chapter 17

Mystery Babylon is to receive her appointed wrath.

Chapter 18

Mystery Babylon receives her appointed wrath.

Chapter 19

Marriage supper of the Lamb. Christ comes for judgment. The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. The remnant are slain. The resurrection has taken place. The rest of mankind who are left are slain. No one is left living on earth. This prepares the earth for a thousand years of rest.

Chapter 20

Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for the duration of the millennium. The saints reign with Christ during that time. The first resurrection has taken place. The dead in the ground in Christ are resurrected. The living in Christ are also resurrected. The living not in Christ have suffered the wrath of God and are killed. No one is now living on earth. The dead who were in the ground, and not in Christ, were left in the ground for the thousand years. (Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.---.)

 

[Yahshua]

I haven't read Zechariah 3 for awhile, but this is always how I understood it, at least the last three verses.

Verse 8 "---I will bring forth my servant the Branch" I believe this to be the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 9 "---I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. The middle of the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Will those of the eighth day live forever?

Yes, those of the eighth day are new life. There will no longer be death. The eighth day is eternity. By my reckoning, we just about entered the 7th day; if not, we're at the tail end of the 6th day. It's difficult to tell exactly because the beast of the 6th day has changed times and laws as prophesied (Daniel 7:25).

----

From your responses, it sounds as if you believe in a form of Preterism? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Full disclosure, I'm an historicist, believing that we've been given prophecies that are progressively fulfilled throughout mankind's history, showing that The Almighty is in control at all times. So, for example, from this POV, I don't believe in a remaining 70th week to be fulfilled and much of the book of Revelation is almost fulfilled with just a bit more left. This will probably help you understand where I'm particularly coming from with my replies as opposed to others.

-----

From an historicist POV, how do we explain the appearance of the Messiah (and the kingdom) in the fourth century, but still believe He is yet to come? Well, He explains it with the analogy he used: the seed. The Parable of the Sower.

Every fruit tree has three forms: the seed, the plant/the tree, and the fruit. Likewise, the kingdom has three forms: The seed (The Word of God; Luke 8:11), the tree (both natural believers and grafted on believers; Romans 11), and the fruit (the transformed, glorified body of believers, which Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44, while the Messiah previews at the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8).

So that the kingdom of God/Heaven/Messiah could manifest on earth in its full glory at the appointed time (at the end of corrupt mankind's rule), the Seed of the kingdom had to come earlier (at His appointed time) to be sown into the corrupt earth (both the actual earth and in us through the teaching of the Word). The seed takes root in the fertile soil of some and grows while the Almighty waters it. Soon, the children of God will be manifested in their glory, as this will be the body of the Messiah (which is why John hears the voice of the Messiah as "many waters running" in Revelation 1:15, because it's the voice of a multitude of believers speaking in unison and walking wherever His Spirit leads). The children (called "the saints" in Daniel and in Revelation) will then put an end to all rebellion during the Sabbath, the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation. Different saints will be given charge over different cities of people (Luke 19:11–27). And it will be a capital crime for anyone other than those authorized to preach and teach the truth. False prophets will be killed immediately, effectively binding satan during this time (unable to spread lies).


But during the Messiah's ministry, even the demons knew He came "early" when they said...

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

And this is also why in John 6:15, He withdrew from the people when they were going to anoint Him as king. It's because He hadn't come to rule yet, but to die as the seed. His death was the most critical work He came to accomplish in the first century (the tail end of the fourth millennium of mankind).

The Almighty has been carrying out His grand plan for mankind as outlined in the story of creation week, to the very millennium (a day for every 1000 years; Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8).

 

[Yahshua]

Yes, those of the eighth day are new life. There will no longer be death. The eighth day is eternity. By my reckoning, we just about entered the 7th day; if not, we're at the tail end of the 6th day. It's difficult to tell exactly because the beast of the 6th day has changed times and laws as prophesied (Daniel 7:25).

I misspoke here. It should read "beast of the 5th day".

From an historicist POV, how do we explain the appearance of the Messiah (and the kingdom) in the fourth century, but still believe He is yet to come? Well, He explains it with the analogy he used: the seed. The Parable of the Sower.

And here should say "first century (fourth millennium)".

 

[ThunderPen]

This is what I believe and what I think is soon to take place.

Islamic staged false prophet. WW3.
Arrival of the two prophets.
Staged 'rapture' millions are killed at once.
Wounding of the beast.
Departure of the two prophets.
Arrival of one seeming to be the savior, ending ww3 but giving homage to the beast, the real false prophet.
Some 70, seventy, years, minus some unknown amount, plagues and death.
During this time:
Sign of the Son of man in the sky.
Many move underground.
At the end of the time, Christ appears in the sky, boom, He is just there, then boom a trumpet sounds and boom millions upon millions on horses appear behind Him in the sky.
A great technological army is on the ground ready to contend with Christ and His army.
The beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into a lake of fire first kindled by the two prophets.
A fire comes out of Christ's mouth and devours the army on the ground, and it expands the lava lake of fire. Christ and His saints come down and the 1000 years begin. Some are tasked to go fetch people out from underground. And we reign over the remaining mortals for 1000 literal years.

Any remaining mortals will be ruled over, the text does not say that the whole world is destroyed at the arrival of Christ, it says the whole world is destroyed after the 1000 years.

During the 1000 years the saints will be granted precious rewards such as being able to resurrect unsaved loved ones. Hebrews 6:2-3. Resurrect them as Lazarus was resurrected, just no longer dead, able to live correctly and believe in the Messiah. Only the saints resurrect and/or are changed to being immortal.

The immortal saints will rule over any remaining mortals for 1000 years, afterward the whole world, the sky and everything is bathed in fire, and as the world burns, the great city, new Jerusalem, comes down, it will seal off the resulting lava pit of the old world.

 

[tttallison]

Yes, those of the eighth day are new life. There will no longer be death. The eighth day is eternity. By my reckoning, we just about entered the 7th day; if not, we're at the tail end of the 6th day. It's difficult to tell exactly because the beast of the 6th day has changed times and laws as prophesied (Daniel 7:25).

----

From your responses, it sounds as if you believe in a form of Preterism? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Full disclosure, I'm an historicist, believing that we've been given prophecies that are progressively fulfilled throughout mankind's history, showing that The Almighty is in control at all times. So, for example, from this POV, I don't believe in a remaining 70th week to be fulfilled and much of the book of Revelation is almost fulfilled with just a bit more left. This will probably help you understand where I'm particularly coming from with my replies as opposed to others.

-----

From an historicist POV, how do we explain the appearance of the Messiah (and the kingdom) in the fourth century, but still believe He is yet to come? Well, He explains it with the analogy he used: the seed. The Parable of the Sower.

Every fruit tree has three forms: the seed, the plant/the tree, and the fruit. Likewise, the kingdom has three forms: The seed (The Word of God; Luke 8:11), the tree (both natural believers and grafted on believers; Romans 11), and the fruit (the transformed, glorified body of believers, which Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44, while the Messiah previews at the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8).

So that the kingdom of God/Heaven/Messiah could manifest on earth in its full glory at the appointed time (at the end of corrupt mankind's rule), the Seed of the kingdom had to come earlier (at His appointed time) to be sown into the corrupt earth (both the actual earth and in us through the teaching of the Word). The seed takes root in the fertile soil of some and grows while the Almighty waters it. Soon, the children of God will be manifested in their glory, as this will be the body of the Messiah (which is why John hears the voice of the Messiah as "many waters running" in Revelation 1:15, because it's the voice of a multitude of believers speaking in unison and walking wherever His Spirit leads). The children (called "the saints" in Daniel and in Revelation) will then put an end to all rebellion during the Sabbath, the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation. Different saints will be given charge over different cities of people (Luke 19:11–27). And it will be a capital crime for anyone other than those authorized to preach and teach the truth. False prophets will be killed immediately, effectively binding satan during this time (unable to spread lies).


But during the Messiah's ministry, even the demons knew He came "early" when they said...

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

And this is also why in John 6:15, He withdrew from the people when they were going to anoint Him as king. It's because He hadn't come to rule yet, but to die as the seed. His death was the most critical work He came to accomplish in the first century (the tail end of the fourth millennium of mankind).

The Almighty has been carrying out His grand plan for mankind as outlined in the story of creation week, to the very millennium (a day for every 1000 years; Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8).

I believe the Seventy weeks have been fulfilled. Dan 9:24 lists six events to be fulfilled in the 70th week, and they all were fulfilled.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. To finish the transgression.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

2. To make an end of sins.

Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Hebrews 10:18)

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Isa 39:7 And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James Ussher dates the start of the seventy weeks to the year 454 BC. Later Scholars have stated that this is wrong, because Nehemiah references the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes as the start of the seventy weeks.

James Ussher was proved correct when Egyptyian hieroglypic inscriptions were found showing that Artaxerxes was made viceroy with his father Xerxes in the 12th year of his reign. This find was recorded in "Revelation & Science" Journal of Sacred Literature and Biblical Record, Series 4 (London: Williams and Norgate Publisers, april 1863 page 156.

 

[ThunderPen]

and to anoint the most Holy

To anoint the most Holy as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That is complete and fully realized during Revelation 19:15-16.

To make an end of sins and bring in everlasting righteousness. I believe that means actual righteousness in everyone alive, and no more sin happening, no more evil, and that has not happened yet, the world is still full of sinful evil people.

70 captivity's are determined. What Daniel went through, what he was reading in Jeremiah, Daniel 9:1-2, Gabriel came and told Daniel such would happen 70 times.

The record of time has been messed with by the office of the beast, so we can't clearly see all the captivities that have happened, but three are clear to see, each starting out with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and lasting 70 years.

One was the Babylonian captivity.
One was the Roman captivity.
One was during the so called crusades.

The modern one started in 1967 and continues today, the end of this recent captivity should therefore be 2037, from Jeremiah and Daniel we can count the time and therefore expect some disaster to happen around Jerusalem at that time and for the nations to be in distress.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I guess I see it coming after the millennium.

Yes some folks see it that way. ….,, for instance paul here

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is this after a thousand year reign of Jesus and the saints upon the earth ? If so why does no one ever mention it ?

How many “returns from heaven” is he going to make ?

My own belief is he’s just going to fulfill the things he said he would do

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Consider that Jesus is already reigning in his kingdom in heaven with many folks who had been redeemed from the earth

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s the ones alive on earth that are in contention with Satan and his beast throughout the book . The people celebrating in the kingdom of heaven are already there . And consider the term “ a thousand years “ from Gods perspective ….

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation should be really examined to see if it’s a “ literal
Book that is showing a linear timeliness ne of earthly events “

Or if it’s a revelation of ot prophecy that’s actually several visions that overlap and intersect to show the prophetic storylines from the ot being the final outcome and gods foresworn promises coming to pass in his eventual time whether it’s a day or ten thousand years

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Three and a half years

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Hebrew.( 6 years 4 months and 20 days) or Greek(6 years and 8 months)

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (3 years 7 months)

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (3 years 8 & 1/2 months)

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (3 and 1/2 years)

notice how daniels vision shows this before it happens

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before this all happened But in John about 700 yrs later appx 60-95 ad it’s about to be finished .

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what he’s saying is the mystery he had declared in the ot prophets ( like Daniel for instance ) is coming to a conclusion. If you look closely Daniel explains johns beast with seven heads and ten horns rather well but Daniel is speaking as it’s just beginning and John is speaking as it’s about to conclude seven hundred or so years later after five of the seven kingdoms had already risen and fallen and the sixth was about to fall . daniel begins as Babylon the first kingdom ( the statues golden head ) is taking power. But John is seeing things as the sixth ruler is in power after five have already ruled and fallen

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. ( daniels four beasts with ten horns ) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past )

and one is, (johns present )


and the other is not yet come; ( johns near future ) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


(Undetermined future time ) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:7-8, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The eighth king and ten horns are about the future the rest was about that time and generation and the visions Daniel saw of Babylon , media Persia , Greece and eventually the Roman Empire who would at last destroy Jerusalem and it’s temple leaving it desolate and spreading the message to all humanity through the gospel

 

[tttallison]

notice how daniels vision shows this before it happens

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before this all happened But in John about 700 yrs later appx 60-95 ad it’s about to be finished .

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what he’s saying is the mystery he had declared in the ot prophets ( like Daniel for instance ) is coming to a conclusion. If you look closely Daniel explains johns beast with seven heads and ten horns rather well but Daniel is speaking as it’s just beginning and John is speaking as it’s about to conclude seven hundred or so years later after five of the seven kingdoms had already risen and fallen and the sixth was about to fall . daniel begins as Babylon the first kingdom ( the statues golden head ) is taking power. But John is seeing things as the sixth ruler is in power after five have already ruled and fallen

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. ( daniels four beasts with ten horns ) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past )

and one is, (johns present )


and the other is not yet come; ( johns near future ) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


(Undetermined future time ) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:7-8, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The eighth king and ten horns are about the future the rest was about that time and generation and the visions Daniel saw of Babylon , media Persia , Greece and eventually the Roman Empire who would at last destroy Jerusalem and it’s temple leaving it desolate and spreading the message to all humanity through the gospel

I have trouble following all you have written.

I believe Daniel chapter nine, and Daniel chapter twelve have been completed.
I believe that the 10 kings all belong to one kingdom.
I don't believe that there will be another temple where sacrifice is offered.
I believe 70 AD ended the age of the program for the living Jews.
I believe we are in the age of the Gentile where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
I believe we are waiting for the marriage and the marriage supper.
I believe that no person that has not been resurrected will be living during the millennium.
I believe after the millennium that the second resurrection includes the Jews of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have trouble following all you have written.

I believe Daniel chapter nine, and Daniel chapter twelve have been completed.
I believe that the 10 kings all belong to one kingdom.
I don't believe that there will be another temple where sacrifice is offered.
I believe 70 AD ended the age of the program for the living Jews.
I believe we are in the age of the Gentile where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
I believe we are waiting for the marriage and the marriage supper.
I believe that no person that has not been resurrected will be living during the millennium.
I believe after the millennium that the second resurrection includes the Jews of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.

I apologize and understand I’m hard to follow . And inderrrsndnif you don’t wanna keep discussing


“I believe that no person that has not been resurrected will be living during the millennium.”

when do you expect “ the millennium “ to occur ?


“I believe after the millennium that the second resurrection includes the Jews of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.“

so you don’t see this

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As being connected with this which happened later ?

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The thing is that promise in ezekeil of a resurrection is part of the old covenant made with the children of Israel. Based on thier covenant with God. That “ program “ you’re referring to had many promises within it to the people it was given to .

These people who appear first in heaven

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this group here isn’t on earth anymore they’ve already lived and died and been redeemed from the earth. And are in sion the heavenly Jerusalem

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:

You know the resurrection ? The bodies that are resurrected are spiritual eternal bodies not earthly physical ones . Here’s Paul explaining that part

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. ( past tense they’ve already risen to life with him )

But every man in his own order:

Christ, the firstfruits; ( 1st resurrection promised to Israel in ezekeil according to their covenant promises)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ( second resurrection of all who belong to Christ when he returns based on new covenant promises )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20, 23,KJV‬‬


what I was saying about spiritual bodies

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44, 46-47, 49-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I hope you understand why I’m making this point we’re being redeemed for something better and the saints are already reigning in Gods city Jerusalem with Jesus the king. And have been for a long time which is what the “ thousand years “ represents a very extended period of time the saints would live and riegn in heaven with Jesus before he would return and gather all those who are in the new covenant and live with the promise of Jesus returning and raising them as well to meet those who have died in Christ…..

i agree with a lot of what you said there I’m just not too sure Jesus will return and give rule of this corrupt earth to israel for a thousand years and then he’ll return again and gather everyone that’s in him …..


i think rather we’re just waiting for what the apostles taught the church

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-


“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where soecifically are you seeing acrual teaching in the Bible about there being a “ thousand year riegn on earth before the people in Christ are raised up ?” I know about the verse in revelation I’m wondering if you know about any actual teachings by the apostles that teach it ?

Amy belief is the thousand years represents a very long extended period , just as for instance it says a king receives power for “ one hour “ with the beast . This isn’t an actual literal hour but represents a very brief period of time. As a thousand years represents a very extended period.

and the riegn of saints with Jesus in sion between the first and second resurrection is actually already happening and has been for along king time since he raised them up being the firstfruits after he conquered death and the grave. And they will rule with him until he returns and gathers those within the promises of his new covenant made with all people .

each covenant promised a resurrection when the messiah came at the conclusion of the covenant . He came once to isreal and filled the promise of life and will return once again at the end with salvation and life once again a second time we will rise up with him

 

[tttallison]

I apologize and understand I’m hard to follow . And inderrrsndnif you don’t wanna keep discussing


“I believe that no person that has not been resurrected will be living during the millennium.”

when do you expect “ the millennium “ to occur ?


“I believe after the millennium that the second resurrection includes the Jews of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.“

so you don’t see this

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As being connected with this which happened later ?

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The thing is that promise in ezekeil of a resurrection is part of the old covenant made with the children of Israel. Based on thier covenant with God. That “ program “ you’re referring to had many promises within it to the people it was given to .

These people who appear first in heaven

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this group here isn’t on earth anymore they’ve already lived and died and been redeemed from the earth. And are in sion the heavenly Jerusalem

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:

You know the resurrection ? The bodies that are resurrected are spiritual eternal bodies not earthly physical ones . Here’s Paul explaining that part

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. ( past tense they’ve already risen to life with him )

But every man in his own order:

Christ, the firstfruits; ( 1st resurrection promised to Israel in ezekeil according to their covenant promises)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ( second resurrection of all who belong to Christ when he returns based on new covenant promises )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20, 23,KJV‬‬


what I was saying about spiritual bodies

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44, 46-47, 49-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I hope you understand why I’m making this point we’re being redeemed for something better and the saints are already reigning in Gods city Jerusalem with Jesus the king. And have been for a long time which is what the “ thousand years “ represents a very extended period of time the saints would live and riegn in heaven with Jesus before he would return and gather all those who are in the new covenant and live with the promise of Jesus returning and raising them as well to meet those who have died in Christ…..

i agree with a lot of what you said there I’m just not too sure Jesus will return and give rule of this corrupt earth to israel for a thousand years and then he’ll return again and gather everyone that’s in him …..


i think rather we’re just waiting for what the apostles taught the church

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-


“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where soecifically are you seeing acrual teaching in the Bible about there being a “ thousand year riegn on earth before the people in Christ are raised up ?” I know about the verse in revelation I’m wondering if you know about any actual teachings by the apostles that teach it ?

Amy belief is the thousand years represents a very long extended period , just as for instance it says a king receives power for “ one hour “ with the beast . This isn’t an actual literal hour but represents a very brief period of time. As a thousand years represents a very extended period.

and the riegn of saints with Jesus in sion between the first and second resurrection is actually already happening and has been for along king time since he raised them up being the firstfruits after he conquered death and the grave. And they will rule with him until he returns and gathers those within the promises of his new covenant made with all people .

each covenant promised a resurrection when the messiah came at the conclusion of the covenant . He came once to isreal and filled the promise of life and will return once again at the end with salvation and life once again a second time we will rise up with him

(When do you expect “ the millennium “ to occur ?) After the Harvest Rev. 19.

(So you don’t see this?) I don't agree. Matthew 27:52-53 has already occurred, and Ezekiel 37 resurrection occurs when God and Magog appear after the millennium.

I agree the 144 thousand were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. They are the firstfruits.

("You know the resurrection ? The bodies that are resurrected are spiritual eternal bodies not earthly physical ones ." ) There is the suggestion in Rev. 20:6 that those of the second resurrection may be subject to the second death.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

("i agree with a lot of what you said there I’m just not too sure Jesus will return and give rule of this corrupt earth to israel for a thousand years and then he’ll return again and gather everyone that’s in him …..") I believe that those that reign with Christ are both Jews and Gentiles. I am not sure what they will be reigning over, but it will not be anybody with earthly bodies. IMO

(Amy belief is the thousand years represents a very long extended period , just as for instance it says a king receives power for “ one hour “ with the beast . This isn’t an actual literal hour but represents a very brief period of time. As a thousand years represents a very extended period.) I believe hour can be interpreted as an appointed time or season. As in Rev 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." IMO "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." represents the millennium. "Half" can be interpreted as a partition and "hour" can be interpreted as a season.

Best regards

 

[Pilgrimshope]

(When do you expect “ the millennium “ to occur ?) After the Harvest Rev. 19.

(So you don’t see this?) I don't agree. Matthew 27:52-53 has already occurred, and Ezekiel 37 resurrection occurs when God and Magog appear after the millennium.

I agree the 144 thousand were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. They are the firstfruits.

("You know the resurrection ? The bodies that are resurrected are spiritual eternal bodies not earthly physical ones ." ) There is the suggestion in Rev. 20:6 that those of the second resurrection may be subject to the second death.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

("i agree with a lot of what you said there I’m just not too sure Jesus will return and give rule of this corrupt earth to israel for a thousand years and then he’ll return again and gather everyone that’s in him …..") I believe that those that reign with Christ are both Jews and Gentiles. I am not sure what they will be reigning over, but it will not be anybody with earthly bodies. IMO

(Amy belief is the thousand years represents a very long extended period , just as for instance it says a king receives power for “ one hour “ with the beast . This isn’t an actual literal hour but represents a very brief period of time. As a thousand years represents a very extended period.) I believe hour can be interpreted as an appointed time or season. As in Rev 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." IMO "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." represents the millennium. "Half" can be interpreted as a partition and "hour" can be interpreted as a season.

Best regards

Yes the “apacalypse “ or the “ revelation” is pretty open to interpretation . It’s why I was wondering if you I or about any ag trust teachings that we could read explaining Jesus return where anyone mentions a thousand year earthly riegn ? Doctrine isn’t really able to be interpreted in many ways it just sort of says what it says.

i was curious is you were basing it on a teaching from the New Testament that teaches us about a thousand year riegn on earth before Jesus destroys it when he returns from heaven as he promised to do to gather his people and take them home .

It seems to me we are waiting for Jesus to return from heaven and raise up the dead saving those who belong to him before he destroys the wicked with this earth.

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

…. but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4, 7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


aim just struggling with there not being any person in the Bible who was ever teaching this but rather it seems to be created from that verse in revelation which as you say it can be interpreted many ways ….it seems as if someone would have taught this very important event like they always do when they do teach us what we are waiting for

Do we agree that this is still what we are waiting for ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m wondering where the millennium fits in the doctrine