Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Your ideas derive from the doctrine of Christian neo-pharisaism. Different details, but essentially the same bifurcated gospel of dispensationalism. Two peoples, two covenants, two gospels equals one abomination.

CRD, you are beautiful. No one makes me laugh as much as you do. A beautiful response, and I have no idea what you said.

JT, all followers of Jesus Christ are Christians. The 144,000 are followers of Jesus Christ.
So, spirit, or physical etc., the 144,000 are Christian.
 
CRD, you are beautiful. No one makes me laugh as much as you do. A beautiful response, and I have no idea what you said.

It's simple. When Christians believe that the old covenant and promises to Israel through the fathers and the prophets aren't fulfilled, or being fulfilled, in Christ and his body (as the pharisees believed, but the apostles did not believe), then out of necessity they must believe that the OT prophecies foretelling Israel's restoration are fulfilled in Israel after the flesh, rather than in the believing elect remnant of Israel after the spirit; and they become the spiritual progeny of unbelieving pharisees who believed the same, or in a few words, Christian neo-pharisees.

JT, all followers of Jesus Christ are Christians. The 144,000 are followers of Jesus Christ.
So, spirit, or physical etc., the 144,000 are Christian.

And all of those who first believed were/are Israel. They didn't stop being Israel when they believed, but in fact became God's one and only Israel, the true Israel of God born of the spirit out of faith. Yet Christian neo-pharisess implicitly deny that reality, and insist instead that Israel somehow mysteriously stopped being Israel and became "the church". They won't openly state that though because it's a patently ridiculous idea.
 
The prophets also seem to anticipate this kind of restoration. Zechariah 12:10 speaks of God pouring out the Spirit of grace and supplication, and Israel looking upon the One they pierced. Isaiah 59:20–21 speaks of the Redeemer coming to Zion and God’s Spirit and words remaining with His people. Isaiah 60:1–3 describes Israel’s light rising while darkness covers the earth, and the nations coming to that light. These passages fit the idea of Israel being restored, enlightened, and then used as a witness to the nations.

This is all just classic dispensational unbelief. All of this has been and is being fulfilled in Christ and his body.

John clearly wrote that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled during Christ's advent. And the spirit of grace was poured out on Jerusalem at Pentecost (Acts 2).

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. John 19:33-37
Isaiah 60 began to be fulfilled beginning with the conversion of the gentile Cornelius in Acts 10. Since then for the past nearly 2000 years the gentiles have come to and walked in the light of the heavenly Jerusalem, bringing their wealth and riches to serve and glorify the God of Israel. Isaiah 60:6 is clearly speaking of gentiles proclaiming the gospel (εὐαγγελίζω)

Herds of camels, and camels of Midian and Ephah shall cover you. They all come from out of Sheba bringing gold and frankincense; and they shall announce as good news (εὐαγγελίζω) the salvation of the lord. Isaiah 60:6

G2097 εὐαγγελίζω euaggelizo (ev-an-ğe-liy'-zō) v.
1. to bring good news.
2. “evangelize.”
3. (especially) to proclaim the good news of redemption through Jesus (i.e. the gospel).

And Isaiah 59:20-21 is obviously speaking of Christ's sudden appearance in the temple of God in Zion to save those who turned from sin.

Behold, I send out my messenger [john the Baptist] who shall prepare the way before my face. And the LORD [Jesus] whom you seek shall come suddenly into his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire. Behold, he comes, says the LORD almighty. Malachi 3:1
 
Okay, CRD, that all sounds very good. So, the distinction is Israel vs. the church.
It stands to reason that greater Israel is not the church and vice versa.
Also, the church comes from Israel. Evidenced by the fact that the Jews brought us the Bible.
And, the church is the spirit of Israel because they follow Jesus Christ, whom Israel was supposed to follow.

If that sounds correct, then I've got it.
 
Okay, CRD, that all sounds very good. So, the distinction is Israel vs. the church.
It stands to reason that greater Israel is not the church and vice versa.
Also, the church comes from Israel. Evidenced by the fact that the Jews brought us the Bible.
And, the church is the spirit of Israel because they follow Jesus Christ, whom Israel was supposed to follow.

If that sounds correct, then I've got it.

No, the distinction is the elect believing part of Israel vs the non-elect disbelieving part.

I don't know what you mean by "greater Israel". Greater Israel according to scripture is the fullness of the gentiles grafted in amongst the natural olive tree branches, as it is written:

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the deterioration of them be the riches of the Gentiles; how much greater their fullness? Romans 11:12

and (bolded part):

And [Jacob] his father refused, and said, I know, my son, I know. He [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed will become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19
 
No, the distinction is the elect believing part of Israel vs the non-elect disbelieving part.

I don't know what you mean by "greater Israel". Greater Israel according to scripture is the fullness of the gentiles grafted in amongst the natural olive tree branches, as it is written:

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the deterioration of them be the riches of the Gentiles; how much greater their fullness? Romans 11:12

and (bolded part):

And [Jacob] his father refused, and said, I know, my son, I know. He [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed will become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19

Okay, the believing part vs. non-believing part. Got it.
The believing part is the Christians, and the non-believing part is the non-Christians.
 
You are certainly correct but please consider the following: Here is another brief carve out discussing the "One Week" phrase found in the chapter 9:27 commentary.


One Week

The phrase “one week” in Daniel 9:27 stands at the center of longstanding interpretive debate. Some theological systems separate this final week from the preceding sixty-nine and project it into the distant future, constructing a seven-year tribulation governed by a future antichrist figure. This approach—first articulated during the Counter-Reformation and later developed within modern dispensationalism—introduces a chronological gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. Yet the text itself gives no indication of such a pause.

Daniel presents the seventy weeks as a unified prophetic period—seventy sevens, or 490 years—decreed upon Daniel’s people and holy city (Daniel 9:24). The progression is sequential and uninterrupted: decree, rebuilding, Messiah’s arrival after sixty-nine weeks, Messiah cut off, covenant confirmed. The seventieth week is not detached from the sixty-nine; it is their culmination. The Hebrew construction reinforces this continuity. The text simply reads:

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many — one week.”

There is no explicit preposition before “one week.” Hebrew frequently expresses duration without inserting a word equivalent to the English “for.” As a result, the phrase may be translated “for one week,” “during one week,” or “within one week.” The emphasis is temporal—it identifies the span in which the covenant is strengthened. It does not describe a negotiated treaty lasting seven years, but a covenant confirmed within the final segment of the prophetic timeline.

This grammatical observation aligns naturally with the structure already established in the chapter. The final week is the last division of the seventy. It does not stand apart from them; it completes them. Within this final week:

The Messiah appears and begins His public ministry (27 AD).​
In the midst of the week—after three and a half years—He is “cut off” (30/31 AD), bringing sacrifice and offering to their appointed fulfillment (Daniel 9:27; Hebrews 10:10–12).​
The remaining three and a half years extend to 34 AD, completing the seventy weeks, during which the gospel is proclaimed primarily to Israel before the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7–8).​

The week is therefore not a suspended future event awaiting fulfillment. It is the climactic moment of redemptive history—the divinely appointed window in which the Messiah arrives, ministers, is cut off, and confirms the covenant. To remove the seventieth week from the seventy fractures the very structure the prophecy carefully builds. Daniel does not suggest a parenthesis. He reveals a completion. And this final week was no ordinary span of years. It was a week set apart for the Messiah Himself. It was the sacred interval in which He would fulfill the six redemptive objectives of Daniel 9:24—to finish transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal vision and prophecy, and anoint the Most Holy.

In the sanctuary pattern woven throughout Scripture, this week represents the restoration of what had long been missing—the true Ark of the Covenant. Not a wooden chest overlaid with gold, but the living presence of God in the Son. In Christ, mercy and law meet again. The covenant is no longer carried in a chamber; it is embodied in the Messiah who stands at the center of history. The seventieth week is not merely chronological. It is covenantal. It is the appointed moment when God restores His dwelling among His people through the One who is Himself the mercy seat.

The Strengthened Covenant

Even more significant than the phrase “one week” is the verb that governs the clause. Daniel 9:27 states that “he shall confirm the covenant with many.” The Hebrew verb used here is וְהִגְבִּיר (vehegbīr)—derived from gābar, meaning “to make strong,” “to cause to prevail,” or “to strengthen.” It does not ordinarily describe the initiation of a brand-new covenant, nor the signing of a political treaty. Rather, it conveys the idea of reinforcing, upholding, or causing something already established to prevail. This is critical.

The text does not say the “he” makes a new covenant. It says he makes strong the covenant. The definite structure implies continuity, not innovation. The covenant already exists in God’s redemptive plan—promised to Abraham, administered under Moses, foretold by the prophets—and in the final week it reaches its decisive confirmation.

Within the seventy-weeks framework, this makes perfect sense. The Messiah does not arrive to invent a new political arrangement; He arrives to bring the covenant promises to their fulfillment. By His ministry and ultimately by His blood, He causes the covenant to prevail—establishing it in its intended, completed form. This reading aligns naturally with the broader testimony of Scripture. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not speak of drafting a treaty; He speaks of confirming covenant reality: “This is My blood of the covenant” (Matthew 26:28). In Hebrews, Christ is not portrayed as negotiating, but as inaugurating what had long been promised (Hebrews 8–10). Thus the force of Daniel 9:27 rests not on the duration of a supposed treaty, but on the strengthening of God’s covenant within the final week of the seventy. The grammatical structure reinforces what the timeline already demonstrates: the focus is redemptive, not political.
The preteist book is a thick one.
Easily debunked and thick.
 
Okay, the believing part vs. non-believing part. Got it.
The believing part is the Christians, and the non-believing part is the non-Christians.
Paul said he was an ethnic Jew.
Paul called the non believing ethnic Jews his brethren.
Recently antisemitism has entered the church and American politics.
The rapture is close.
 
Paul said he was an ethnic Jew.
Paul called the non believing ethnic Jews his brethren.

He also called such things dung. The only reasons he mentioned his lineage were to make the points that God hadn't cast away all of his people and such worldly considerations mean nothing to God.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and I count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Philippians 3:5-8
 
Paul said he was an ethnic Jew.
Paul called the non believing ethnic Jews his brethren.
Recently antisemitism has entered the church and American politics.
The rapture is close.

Actually, the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine. And there will be a lot of disappointed people who have bought into that false doctrine. It is simply an exodus of the 144,000, and not off the earth (Rev. 12:6). They are called out to prepare for the mid-point harvest, which is also not a rapture from the earth but a gathering of saints (Rev. 14:14-16, Rev. 15:2). And lastly, the ending of the seven years is the post-trib rapture, which is the true rapture from the earth, before its burning. Three events, the exodus, harvest, and rapture, and in that order.
 
Actually, the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine. And there will be a lot of disappointed people who have bought into that false doctrine. It is simply an exodus of the 144,000, and not off the earth (Rev. 12:6). They are called out to prepare for the mid-point harvest, which is also not a rapture from the earth but a gathering of saints (Rev. 14:14-16, Rev. 15:2). And lastly, the ending of the seven years is the post-trib rapture, which is the true rapture from the earth, before its burning. Three events, the exodus, harvest, and rapture, and in that order.
Lol.
I can defend it quite handily while you go against the bible.

Post for me a postrib rapture verse.
Just one
 
Actually, the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine. And there will be a lot of disappointed people who have bought into that false doctrine. It is simply an exodus of the 144,000, and not off the earth (Rev. 12:6). They are called out to prepare for the mid-point harvest, which is also not a rapture from the earth but a gathering of saints (Rev. 14:14-16, Rev. 15:2). And lastly, the ending of the seven years is the post-trib rapture, which is the true rapture from the earth, before its burning. Three events, the exodus, harvest, and rapture, and in that order.


How is it possible to ignore the First Resurrection and the 2nd that follows after the 1000 years. Rev 20
Have any of you that hope to escape pain by this rupture, every been shown there will be a 2nd Exodus?
 
How is it possible to ignore the First Resurrection and the 2nd that follows after the 1000 years. Rev 20
Have any of you that hope to escape pain by this rupture, every been shown there will be a 2nd Exodus?

There is a first resurrection and a second resurrection, as explained in Rev. 20. The rapture from the earth, on the other hand, is not a resurrection.
 
If you say Zechariah 14 takes place during the Millennium, how is it that it states Jerusalem shall dwell in safety (Zec 14:11
And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.), yet there is another battle.
After the millennium, they try to attack the camp of the saints, but a fire comes down from God and destroys them. During the Millennium Jerusalem will dwell safely.
After the Millennium new Jerusalem literally comes down. A literal city with streets of literal transparent gold.
 
After the millennium, they try to attack the camp of the saints, but a fire comes down from God and destroys them. During the Millennium Jerusalem will dwell safely.
After the Millennium new Jerusalem literally comes down. A literal city with streets of literal transparent gold.
Who are the resurrected after the millennium?
 
do you believe there will be some that are taken to the third heaven?

I have an idea of what the third heaven is, but I do not know exactly. Nevertheless, heaven would be a reward after mortality. So, some may go to heaven in a third category, after resurrection, as heavenly rewards go. Or to the first or second, etc.

Nevertheless, the rapture does not end in a reward, but protection, as the earth is being burned and renewed. That is, if heaven is a metaphor for the earth, then the reward is the earth for those resurrected from the dead. And the earth is the location for those raptured from mortality so that they can continue to live in mortality in the 1,000 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BetterCallPsalms