So are gays/lesbians nonelects? How do people become gays/lesbians?

[tablet123]

I know for a fact, sodom and gomorrah people in the bible are nonelects.​

​

Romans 1:24-32​

​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [a]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [b]men, leaving the natural use of the [c]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [d]sexual immorality, wickedness, [e]covetousness, [f]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [g]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [h]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

This is true.

For God said if there were any righteous He would not overthrow them.

But God overthrew them so they were not part of the elect.

At least at that time for years ago there might of been some that acknowledged God and somewhat of a moral base but probably not when other sins could condemn them like justifying war.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Sodom and Gomorrah was involved in terrible wickedness other than sexual immorality.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

But it was them wanting to have sexual relations with the 2 men that went to Lot's house that sealed their doom which was part of the abomination they committed along with the other sins she committed.

People that say it was not homosexuality seem to be justifying it and will say it was because they were not hospitable.

But God is not going to overthrow the cities because of that.

God appeared in flesh with 2 of His angels.

He talked with Abraham and said if He could find any righteous He would not overthrow the city.

God sent the 2 angels in the form of men to test the city which He was giving them a chance and they stayed at Lot's house.

All the men of the city compassed Lot's house and said bring the men out that we may know them which is a term used in the Bible for when people have sex.

Lot offered his 2 daughters to them for sex and leave the men alone testifying it was for sex.

Not one person cried out let us not do this wicked deed but they were all in one accord agreeing to the act.

God knew there were no righteous there and the angels took Lot and his wife and 2 daughters out of the city and He overthrew it.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

This is true.

For God said if there were any righteous He would not overthrow them.

But God overthrew them so they were not part of the elect.

At least at that time for years ago there might of been some that acknowledged God and somewhat of a moral base but probably not when other sins could condemn them like justifying war.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Sodom and Gomorrah was involved in terrible wickedness other than sexual immorality.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

But it was them wanting to have sexual relations with the 2 men that went to Lot's house that sealed their doom which was part of the abomination they committed along with the other sins she committed.

People that say it was not homosexuality seem to be justifying it and will say it was because they were not hospitable.

But God is not going to overthrow the cities because of that.

God appeared in flesh with 2 of His angels.

He talked with Abraham and said if He could find any righteous He would not overthrow the city.

God sent the 2 angels in the form of men to test the city which He was giving them a chance and they stayed at Lot's house.

All the men of the city compassed Lot's house and said bring the men out that we may know them which is a term used in the Bible for when people have sex.

Lot offered his 2 daughters to them for sex and leave the men alone testifying it was for sex.

Not one person cried out let us not do this wicked deed but they were all in one accord agreeing to the act.

God knew there were no righteous there and the angels took Lot and his wife and 2 daughters out of the city and He overthrew it.

Question: Why some people say you can't know if a person is nonelect or God's elect? When by their fruit you will know them.

 

[pinebeach]

Romans 1 probably gives the most succint explanation as to why people choose sin and evil and how God reflects on those activities.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

The author of that book clearly hasn't studied the science.

I just started listening to this sermon and the pastor brought up the study you linked to.
You might like this preaching. It's certainly different from main line denominations. Absolutely none of them would send their pastors this title, topic or outline.

 

[Maestro]

gays/lesbians​

God hates sin no matter what it is, gays, lesbians, and other deviant practices He seems to dislike more but everybody can be saved and I shall not judge the World and have no right to do so as once I part of it and full of sin and still do sin until this body is finished with.
But my new creation is impossible to sin and started my eternal life the day I was born again.
The problem comes when a gay and lesbian truly becomes a Christian because then I have the right to judge them as if they still feel that way they cannot practice sex and become celebate.
God created Mankind Male and Female and that’s the way it is I am afraid and there is no way round it these things are perversion’s, may be demons, there has been a lot of brain washing since the 70s in young minds.
The judgments for these practices in the Bible are severe and that shows how much God hates theses practices.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

gays/lesbians​

God hates sin no matter what it is, gays, lesbians, and other deviant practices He seems to dislike more but everybody can be saved and I shall not judge the World and have no right to do so as once I part of it and full of sin and still do sin until this body is finished with.

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

But my new creation is impossible to sin and started my eternal life the day I was born again.
The problem comes when a gay and lesbian truly becomes a Christian because then I have the right to judge them as if they still feel that way they cannot practice sex and become celebate.
God created Mankind Male and Female and that’s the way it is I am afraid and there is no way round it these things are perversion’s, may be demons, there has been a lot of brain washing since the 70s in young minds.
The judgments for these practices in the Bible are severe and that shows how much God hates theses practices.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

gays/lesbians​

God hates sin no matter what it is, gays, lesbians, and other deviant practices He seems to dislike more but everybody can be saved and I shall not judge the World and have no right to do so as once I part of it and full of sin and still do sin until this body is finished with.
But my new creation is impossible to sin and started my eternal life the day I was born again.
The problem comes when a gay and lesbian truly becomes a Christian because then I have the right to judge them as if they still feel that way they cannot practice sex and become celebate.
God created Mankind Male and Female and that’s the way it is I am afraid and there is no way round it these things are perversion’s, may be demons, there has been a lot of brain washing since the 70s in young minds.
The judgments for these practices in the Bible are severe and that shows how much God hates theses practices.

You're probably thinking in terms of being humble.
Just remember Lot's wife.
These things about Sodom were written for our admonition and it pleases the Lord when we agree with Him.
I try to lead Sodomites to Christ when they cross my path. Perhaps there's a young person who has not been turned over to a reprobate mind..
In general, they rejected God and are given over to a reprobate mind.

Romans 1

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Since this is a subforum for Bible teachers, keep in mind that despite the wicked trend to accept any and all volunteers, queers have absolutely NO business working with children.

Here's the tame clips that YouTube censors allow.
The San Francisco Gay men's choir are out of the closet about going after children. I wonder why?
Could it be because the Bible believing fundamentalist Evangelical preachers joined the enemy camp in agreement with the Benjamites and Gibeonites?
What do I mean?
Who has an idea?

 

[Gideon300]

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

yes, but not yet.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”…

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

yes, but not yet.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”…

Please read what I wrote in my previous post.

Since this is a subforum for Bible teachers, keep in mind that despite the wicked trend to accept any and all volunteers, queers have absolutely NO business working with children.

Here's the tame clips that YouTube censors allow.
The San Francisco Gay men's choir are out of the closet about going after children. I wonder why?
Could it be because the Bible believing fundamentalist Evangelical preachers joined the enemy camp in agreement with the Benjamites and Gibeonites?
What do I mean?
Who has an idea?

 

[Ceph]

Could it be because the Bible believing fundamentalist Evangelical preachers joined the enemy camp in agreement with the Benjamites and Gibeonites?
What do I mean?
Who has an idea?

"Let's not bring out these wicked men to judgment, but let them fester in the land, and we will fight against our brothers who've come against us to remove them."

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

"Let's not bring out these wicked men to judgment, but let them fester in the land, and we will fight against our brothers who've come against us to remove them."

That's right! In Judges, the tribe of Benjamin defended the wicked criminals who killed that poor woman and threatened to harm the men. As strange as the story is, because there's really no clear hero or righteous people, but there's a modern application.

I have been surprised to see a movement in some Evangelical and Baptist churches to become sinfully inclusive to the point of defending the recruitment of sodomites in leadership positions. For some reason they end up in young children's ministries as that preacher explained when criticizing the Johnny Nixon book previously.

It's shocking to see some churches that now act like the tribe of Benjamin who defend the sodomites that are a danger to their own church members.
We see what eventually happened to the Benjamites.
The same seems to be happening to formerly decent churches.

 

[Ceph]

Another shameful thing that bugglers do to Gods word is twisting the pure freindship between David and Jonathan, which is supposed to be an example of pure godly love between men and a witness against their treacherous homofaggotry, into one of their evil poopmire fantasies.
The Judge is going to have a feild day when those secrets are examined.

 

[Jon777]

Since the Bible has no words equivalent to “homosexual”, a word coined in the 19th century; it is best to let those who specialize in this psychological topic expound on it.

From:
From D. G. Myers, C. N. DeWall, & J. Gruber, EXPLORING PSYCHOLOGY, 13th ed., Worth Pubs., 2025

“Origins of Sexual Orientation
So, if we do not choose our sexual orientation and (especially for men) cannot change it, where do these feelings come from? In an early search for possible environmental influences on sexual orientation, Kinsey Institute investigators in the 1980s interviewed nearly 1000 gay and 500 heterosexual people. They assessed nearly every imaginable psychological “cause” of same-sex attraction — parental relationships, childhood sexual experiences, peer relationships, and dating experiences (Bell et al., 1981; Hammersmith, 1982). Their findings: Gay people were no more likely than straight people to have been smothered by maternal love or neglected by their father. And consider this: If “distant fathers” were more likely to produce gay sons, then shouldn’t boys growing up in father-absent homes more often be gay? (They are not.) And shouldn’t the rising num ber of such homes have led to a noticeable increase in the gay population? (It did not.) Most children raised by gay or lesbian parents display gender-typical behavior and are heterosexual (Farr et al., 2018; Gartrell & Bos, 2010). And they grow up with health and emotional well-being similar to children with straight parents (Bos et al., 2016; Farr, 2017). Environment likely contributes to sexual orientation — nature and nurture work together — but the inability to pin down specific environmental influences has led researchers to explore several lines of biological evidence. These include same-sex attraction in other species, brain differences, and genetic and prenatal influences.”

“BRAIN DIFFERENCES Might the structure and function of gay and straight brains dif fer? Neuroscientist Simon LeVay (1991) studied sections of the hypothalamus taken from deceased gay and straight people. He found a cell cluster that was indeed reliably larger in straight men than in straight women and gay men. It should not surprise us that brains differ with sexual orientation. Remember: Every thing psychological is simultaneously biological. But when did the brain difference begin? At conception? During childhood or adolescence? Did experience produce the difference? Or was it genes or prenatal hormones (or genes activating prenatal hormones)? LeVay does not view the hypothalamus cell network as a sexual orientation center. Rather, he sees it as an important part of a brain pathway linked to sexual behavior. He acknowledges that sexual behavior patterns could influence the brain’s anatomy. In fish, birds, rats, and humans, brain structures vary with experience — including sexual experience (Breedlove, 1997). But LeVay believes it more likely that brain anatomy influences sexual orientation. His hunch seems confirmed by the discovery of a similar hypothalamic difference between male sheep that do and don’t display same-sex attraction (Larkin et al., 2002; Roselli et al., 2002, 2004). Moreover, such differences seem to develop soon after birth, and perhaps even before birth (Rahman & Wilson, 2003).”
06_myersep13e_47276_ch05_165_193_2pp.indd

From the American Psychological Association
“What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”
Understanding sexual orientation and homosexuality

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Another shameful thing that bugglers do to Gods word is twisting the pure freindship between David and Jonathan, which is supposed to be an example of pure godly love between men and a witness against their treacherous homofaggotry, into one of their evil poopmire fantasies.
The Judge is going to have a feild day when those secrets are examined.

That's a fact!

 

[Ceph]

I also have a theory that parasites, and other intestinal infections, greatly contribute to homosexuality.
I read a story a long while ago about someone who had a homosexual cousin, who one day took ivermectin, and suddenly pooped out a bunch of dead worms afterward. After that, not only did he immediately stop being homosexual, but despised the fact that he ever was. It was like a 'what on earth have I been doing?' revelation to him. And then the story goes that he got right and lived a stable life with a wife for companionship.

 

[Shepherd]

1 CORINTHIANS 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The modern terms "gay" and "lesbian" do not appear, at least not in the King James Bible. But here they are mentioned as "abusers of themselves with mankind". Anyway, if these mentioned had been "non-elect", how could they later be "washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus"?

 

[Jon777]

1 CORINTHIANS 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The modern terms "gay" and "lesbian" do not appear, at least not in the King James Bible. But here they are mentioned as "abusers of themselves with mankind". Anyway, if these mentioned had been "non-elect", how could they later be "washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus"?

When using the older translations, you use an older English dictionary to understand the words accurately. For instance, use the 1828 Webster’s English Dictionary and you see modern translations do NOT mean the same as the KJV, ASV and even the YLT on this verse.

ABU'SER, n. s as z. One who abuses, in speech or behavior; one that deceives; a ravisher; a sodomite. 1 Cor 6.

It is one who is abusive, a ravisher:

RAV'ISHER, n.
1. One that takes by violence.
2. One that forces a woman to his carnal embrace.
3. One that transports with delight.

Not only do you see the nature of the male offender here, you can see it is seen as the definition of a “sodomite”, which is in the definition of “Abuser”. A rapist!

On the word “effeminate”, again reading the 1828 Websters:

EFFEM'INATE, a. [L. effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate, and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminate peace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.

There is nothing about the word “effeminate” that means a “catamite”, or “male prostitute”. A literal translation, the YLT –

“have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,” (1Cor 6:9, YLT)

The modern evangelical translations insert their evangelical ideas into the words malakos and arsenokoites, that are not in the KJV, ASV or YLT.

“Lesbians” are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and Rom. 1:26 has been seen as “for even the women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; either by prostituting themselves to, and complying with the "sodomitical" embraces of men, in a way that is against nature” as John Gill gives as one meaning. See Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) “They prostituted themselves to men for perverted and sodomic intercourse.” Actually, Rom 1:26 does NOT say women had sex with women!

 

[Shepherd]

When using the older translations, you use an older English dictionary to understand the words accurately. For instance, use the 1828 Webster’s English Dictionary and you see modern translations do NOT mean the same as the KJV, ASV and even the YLT on this verse.

ABU'SER, n. s as z. One who abuses, in speech or behavior; one that deceives; a ravisher; a sodomite. 1 Cor 6.

It is one who is abusive, a ravisher:

RAV'ISHER, n.
1. One that takes by violence.
2. One that forces a woman to his carnal embrace.
3. One that transports with delight.

Not only do you see the nature of the male offender here, you can see it is seen as the definition of a “sodomite”, which is in the definition of “Abuser”. A rapist!

On the word “effeminate”, again reading the 1828 Websters:

EFFEM'INATE, a. [L. effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate, and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminate peace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.

There is nothing about the word “effeminate” that means a “catamite”, or “male prostitute”. A literal translation, the YLT –

“have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,” (1Cor 6:9, YLT)

The modern evangelical translations insert their evangelical ideas into the words malakos and arsenokoites, that are not in the KJV, ASV or YLT.

“Lesbians” are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and Rom. 1:26 has been seen as “for even the women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; either by prostituting themselves to, and complying with the "sodomitical" embraces of men, in a way that is against nature” as John Gill gives as one meaning. See Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) “They prostituted themselves to men for perverted and sodomic intercourse.” Actually, Rom 1:26 does NOT say women had sex with women!

The point was...Paul was speaking to some born again folks who HAD BEEN homosexuals. And the point of that was to ask the question; How can the original poster say that "sodom and gomorrah people'' are "nonelects" when homosexuals had clearly been saved in 1 Corinthians 6?

 

[Jon777]

The point was...Paul was speaking to some born again folks who HAD BEEN homosexuals. And the point of that was to ask the question; How can the original poster say that "sodom and gomorrah people'' are "nonelects" when homosexuals had clearly been saved in 1 Corinthians 6?

If instead of "who HAD BEEN homosexuals" you had written 'who HAD BEEN sodomites", I would agree 100%. But "homosexual" is not a synonym for "sodomite". "Homosexual" was coined about 1869 in Germany, coming into English about 1900. Neither the OT or NT has a Hebrew or Greek word equivalent to "homosexual".

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Copyright 2000

"The terms 'homosexuality' and 'homosexual' are coinages of the 19th century C.E. and have no equivalent in ancient Hebrew or Greek. It is debatable whether the modern idea of homosexuality (an erotic attraction focused only or primarily on persons of the same gender) existed at all in antiquity. The Bible does not appear to say anything directly about homosexuality in this modern sense of the term, but a few passages do refer to same-gender genital acts." page 602

From Principles of Interpretation:
"RULE :—If a translation be used, it must be an exact equivalent of the original, or the difference must be noted by the interpreter."

Principles of Interpretation : Clinton Lockhart : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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