So are gays/lesbians nonelects? How do people become gays/lesbians?

[Jon777]

The Internet is a great resource to find actual scholarship based on detailed analysis of scripture, not just someone’s opinion. What about that love between Jonathan and David, according to scripture? Some have put good studies online on the question.

The first mention is the following: “And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit/qashar with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.” (1Sam 18:1, KJV)
[Some Hebrew/English Interlinear OTs include the gender modifiers and what I have underlined in these read: “and soul-of Jonathan she-was-tied in soul of David”. The Hebrew qashar is modified by “she” in 3 OT verses, and the other two are of women, Gn.38:28 & Josh 2:21.

Many times qashar is modified by male gender, and always in verses about men. Why was Jonathan’s soul referred to as “she”, along with two other verses which are females? Not all Heb/Eng Interlinear Bibles include the gender modifiers, but one you can read online does:
1sa18.pdf

The love in 1 Sam. 18:3 is H160 אַהֲבָה 'ahabah and the first use of the word is in:
“And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.” (Gen 29:21, KJV)

Omitting the couple of times the word H160 is used of God’s love, human love from the first occurrence is used of Jonathan and David in 1 Sam. 18:3; 20:17, and then 2 Sam. 1:26. It is used once again before the close of 2 Kings and it reads:

"Then Amnon hated her with exceeding great hatred; for the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love(H160) wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone." (2Sam 13:15 ASV) ** Ammon loveth his sister Tamar; ravisheth her; then hateth and driveth her away, 2Sa 13:1-19

The choice of the Hebrew for love regarding Jonathan and David appears to be quite clear.

Reading the last reference to Jonathan and David, we read:
“I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.” (2Sam 1:26, KJV)

First, the love is of women plural, not a wife or mother. It is not the love of father or brother, but the “love of women”. Since it is plural, to make it wife, it has to be wives. How great is the love, a non-sexual love of a harem?? The meaning is so clear, that about the 8th century, the Latin Vulgate copyists added a completely spurious, false sentence found in no manuscript and it is seen as the Douay-Rheims renders the Latin of the verse:

“I grieve for thee, my brother Jonathan: exceeding beautiful, and amiable to me above the love of women. As the mother loveth her only son, so did I love thee.” (2Sa 1:26 DRB)

You don’t need to be the sharpest tool in the shed to know why the church copyists about the 8th century began adding that sentence. The church itself let the cat out of the bag on this one!

It cannot be said this teaches that David and Jonathan ever engaged in sex, but it cannot be said that it doesn’t suggest something homoerotic. David had about 10 wives and a hundred concubines, so sexual faithfulness does not seem high in David’s mind.

 

[Dino246]

I know for a fact, sodom and gomorrah people in the bible are nonelects.
​

That’s rather a silly statement, Captain Obvious.

However, given that you link it to your thread title, I have a question for you:

Is a fully repentant former homosexual who has accepted Christ’s sacrifice on their behalf now “elect” or do they remain unsaved despite every evidence to the contrary?

Given the again obvious answer to my question, why do you presume to dictate condemnation on anyone?​

 

[Magenta]

It is debatable whether the modern idea of homosexuality (an erotic attraction focused
only or primarily on persons of the same gender) existed at all in antiquity.

AI Overview on this subject contradicts itself, firsts saying, "In the ancient Mediterranean, sexual desire
was organized around social dominance, gender roles, and active/passive dynamics rather than partner
preference, meaning that the idea of an exclusive "gay" or "straight" identity is a modern construct." But
then it says, "Ancient cultures did have a concept for a man who exclusively desired other men as a passive
partner, but this was generally stigmatized as a gender transgression rather than understood as a neutral
sexual orientation." Apparently much depended upon whether you were the dominant or passive partner.

 

[Brasspen]

I LOVE lesbians, and also gay people. Nobody is perfect here on earth. If you reject them, hate them, you are hurting them. And that is evil.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

How do you follow Jesus command in Matthew 7:6 without discerning their fruits, if they are nonelect or God's elect?​

Romans 8 provides insight concerning "Election".. Being Homosexual is essentially a form of insanity, which in today's society, has become a praised, promoted, and celebrated "normalcy".

However, a "Gay" individual is only another human being, and it's NOT YOUR BUSINESS to judge and dismiss. YOUR JOB is to present the gospel to them, and allow the holy Spirit to convict them of SIN, including their sexual confusion. IF they are convicted, and respond in FAITH, they're as easily Born Again as anybody else.

WHen they become Born Again, the Holy Spirit will deal with their lifestyle issues, just as he did with mine (and hopefully yours also).

The Doctrines of "Election" are largely man's attempts at theology. Wisdom from the Holy Spirit is a better guide into truth. Sexual aberrations are just another SIN like all the others.

 

[Drich]

I know for a fact, sodom and gomorrah people in the bible are nonelects.​

That is not something we are charged to decide. Who is and who is not a child of God. In the parable of the wheat and weeds the angels ask God if He wants them to pull all of the weeds out of the field (non elect) and God says no, because you might accidentally pull up the wheat as well. If the angels can't tell the wheat from the weeds till the harvest, what makes you think you can?

How do you follow Jesus command in Matthew 7:6 without discerning their fruits, if they are nonelect or God's elect?

Matthew 7:6​

​

6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Well we start by putting this passage into it's full context. From mat 7:1 to 7:6 Jesus is clearly telling us not to judge people without first doing a self examination and taking care of our sin, before we concern ourselves with the sins of others. From this context mat 7:6 Dogs/Pigs are those who would judge others without examining themselves first.

How do people become gays/lesbians?​

We have mapped the human genome. Meaning we know what every single gene does. There is no gay gene. there is no one gene that predispositions us to be gay. According to Homosexuality is triggered by social and environmental ques according to : https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/talking-apes/202212/is-there-gay-gene

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

 

[Jon777]

That is not something we are charged to decide. Who is and who is not a child of God. In the parable of the wheat and weeds the angels ask God if He wants them to pull all of the weeds out of the field (non elect) and God says no, because you might accidentally pull up the wheat as well. If the angels can't tell the wheat from the weeds till the harvest, what makes you think you can?

Well we start by putting this passage into it's full context. From mat 7:1 to 7:6 Jesus is clearly telling us not to judge people without first doing a self examination and taking care of our sin, before we concern ourselves with the sins of others. From this context mat 7:6 Dogs/Pigs are those who would judge others without examining themselves first.



We have mapped the human genome. Meaning we know what every single gene does. There is no gay gene. there is no one gene that predispositions us to be gay. According to Homosexuality is triggered by social and environmental ques according to : https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/talking-apes/202212/is-there-gay-gene

Drich, I appreciate that you gave a link showing what you are basing your belief on. Too many will not give their sources to be checked. I can see how you came to your conclusion, but I read it differently in a larger context, and I'll quote from it to indicate why I see it so:

“So, is there really a gay gene?” he asked.

“Well, yes, sort of,” I replied. “But it’s complicated.”

As University of Toronto (Canada) psychologist Doug VanderLaan and his colleagues explain in an article they recently published in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, science now clearly shows that people are born with their sexual orientation. Many people assume that if a trait is something we're “born with,” it must be genetic—but in fact, it’s not that simple.

On the one hand, traits can be determined by multiple genes, such that a single trait may have any number of genetic causes. On the other hand, the way we come out of the womb is determined as much by conditions inside the womb as they are by our genes. That is, the presence of particular hormones during prenatal development, as well as the reactions of our mother’s immune system, can have a big influence in shaping who we are."

I'll add a paragraph from a current college psychology textbook on this topic:
"So, if we do not choose our sexual orientation and (especially for men) cannot change it, where do these feelings come from? In an early search for possible environmental influences on sexual orientation, Kinsey Institute investigators in the 1980s interviewed nearly 1000 gay and 500 heterosexual people. They assessed nearly every imaginable psychological “cause” of same-sex attraction — parental relationships, childhood sexual experiences, peer relationships, and dating experiences (Bell et al., 1981; Hammersmith, 1982). Their findings: Gay people were no more likely than straight people to have been smothered by maternal love or neglected by their father. And consider this: If “distant fathers” were more likely to produce gay sons, then shouldn’t boys growing up in father-absent homes more often be gay? (They are not.) And shouldn’t the rising number of such homes have led to a noticeable increase in the gay population? (It did not.) Most children raised by gay or lesbian parents display gender-typical behavior and are heterosexual (Farr et al., 2018; Gartrell & Bos, 2010). And they grow up with health and emotional well-being similar to children with straight parents (Bos et al., 2016; Farr, 2017).Environment likely contributes to sexual orientation — nature and nurture work together — but the inability to pin down specific environmental influences has led researchers to explore several lines of biological evidence. These include same-sex attraction in other species, brain differences, and genetic and prenatal influences."

https://pub-fb5027e0bdfb4fc4ab71242ed2116543.r2.dev/uploads/SexualOrientation.pdf

 

[Jon777]

I do not go to video links but I can guess what the approach would be in this ‘preaching clip’.

It remains a mystery to me why Christians go to preachers and theologians to learn the complex details of the origin of sexual orientation. Do these Christians go to the preacher to understand open-heart surgery? I readily will pay attention to what theologians and preachers state about biblical doctrine, and then compare it to the Bible and other theologians, but I totally ignore what preachers say about the complexity of sexual orientation.

 

[Jon777]

That is not something we are charged to decide. Who is and who is not a child of God. In the parable of the wheat and weeds the angels ask God if He wants them to pull all of the weeds out of the field (non elect) and God says no, because you might accidentally pull up the wheat as well. If the angels can't tell the wheat from the weeds till the harvest, what makes you think you can?

Well we start by putting this passage into it's full context. From mat 7:1 to 7:6 Jesus is clearly telling us not to judge people without first doing a self examination and taking care of our sin, before we concern ourselves with the sins of others. From this context mat 7:6 Dogs/Pigs are those who would judge others without examining themselves first.



We have mapped the human genome. Meaning we know what every single gene does. There is no gay gene. there is no one gene that predispositions us to be gay. According to Homosexuality is triggered by social and environmental ques according to : https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/talking-apes/202212/is-there-gay-gene

Again Drich, I erred in my previous reply by not stating that I agree with your post and how you point out we are not the ones to judge who is saved or in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I do not go to video links but I can guess what the approach would be in this ‘preaching clip’.

It remains a mystery to me why Christians go to preachers and theologians to learn the complex details of the origin of sexual orientation. Do these Christians go to the preacher to understand open-heart surgery? I readily will pay attention to what theologians and preachers state about biblical doctrine, and then compare it to the Bible and other theologians, but I totally ignore what preachers say about the complexity of sexual orientation.

The Bible explained sexual orientation very well.

I know something about the Sodomites. There are entire chapters of the Bible explaining them.

 

[Jon777]

The Bible explained sexual orientation very well.

I know something about the Sodomites. There are entire chapters of the Bible explaining them.

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Copyright 2000
"The terms 'homosexuality' and 'homosexual' are coinages of the 19th century C.E. and have no equivalent in ancient Hebrew or Greek. It is debatable whether the modern idea of homosexuality (an erotic attraction focused only or primarily on persons of the same gender) existed at all in antiquity. The Bible does not appear to say anything directly about homosexuality in this modern sense of the term, but a few passages do refer to same-gender genital acts." page 602

New Bible Dictionary, Third Edition, IVP Copyright 1996
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition (despite the rather misleading RSV [1st Ed] translation of 1 Cor. 6:9), but its condemnations of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too much." page 478 (I underlined for emphasis)

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Fully Revised, Vol. 4, 1988, Eerdmans
"...how did Paul understand the homosexual behavior he condemned? Evidently he understood it as freely chosen (cf. 'exchanged,' 'gave up') by people for whom heterosexual relations were 'natural,' and as chosen (by heterosexual people) because of their insatiable lust ('consumed with passion')." page 437

 

[Drich]

Drich, I appreciate that you gave a link showing what you are basing your belief on. Too many will not give their sources to be checked. I can see how you came to your conclusion, but I read it differently in a larger context, and I'll quote from it to indicate why I see it so:

“So, is there really a gay gene?” he asked.

“Well, yes, sort of,” I replied. “But it’s complicated.”

As University of Toronto (Canada) psychologist Doug VanderLaan and his colleagues explain in an article they recently published in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, science now clearly shows that people are born with their sexual orientation. Many people assume that if a trait is something we're “born with,” it must be genetic—but in fact, it’s not that simple.

On the one hand, traits can be determined by multiple genes, such that a single trait may have any number of genetic causes. On the other hand, the way we come out of the womb is determined as much by conditions inside the womb as they are by our genes. That is, the presence of particular hormones during prenatal development, as well as the reactions of our mother’s immune system, can have a big influence in shaping who we are."

I'll add a paragraph from a current college psychology textbook on this topic:
"So, if we do not choose our sexual orientation and (especially for men) cannot change it, where do these feelings come from? In an early search for possible environmental influences on sexual orientation, Kinsey Institute investigators in the 1980s interviewed nearly 1000 gay and 500 heterosexual people. They assessed nearly every imaginable psychological “cause” of same-sex attraction — parental relationships, childhood sexual experiences, peer relationships, and dating experiences (Bell et al., 1981; Hammersmith, 1982). Their findings: Gay people were no more likely than straight people to have been smothered by maternal love or neglected by their father. And consider this: If “distant fathers” were more likely to produce gay sons, then shouldn’t boys growing up in father-absent homes more often be gay? (They are not.) And shouldn’t the rising number of such homes have led to a noticeable increase in the gay population? (It did not.) Most children raised by gay or lesbian parents display gender-typical behavior and are heterosexual (Farr et al., 2018; Gartrell & Bos, 2010). And they grow up with health and emotional well-being similar to children with straight parents (Bos et al., 2016; Farr, 2017).Environment likely contributes to sexual orientation — nature and nurture work together — but the inability to pin down specific environmental influences has led researchers to explore several lines of biological evidence. These include same-sex attraction in other species, brain differences, and genetic and prenatal influences."

https://pub-fb5027e0bdfb4fc4ab71242ed2116543.r2.dev/uploads/SexualOrientation.pdf

sort of =/= Gay gene

 

[Dino246]

I do not go to video links but I can guess what the approach would be in this ‘preaching clip’.

It remains a mystery to me why Christians go to preachers and theologians to learn the complex details of the origin of sexual orientation. Do these Christians go to the preacher to understand open-heart surgery? I readily will pay attention to what theologians and preachers state about biblical doctrine, and then compare it to the Bible and other theologians, but I totally ignore what preachers say about the complexity of sexual orientation.

Competent preachers can indeed speak to the matter. It is a manifestation of the broken world in which we live, just as chronic anxiety, eating disorders, addictions, arthritis, and earthquakes are manifestations of brokenness. Can they explain the complexity? Probably not, but don’t need to anymore than they need to explain tensor calculus. The problem is that sone people try to dismiss sinful behaviour as non-sinful just because it is rooted in brokenness.

 

[Brasspen]

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Copyright 2000
"The terms 'homosexuality' and 'homosexual' are coinages of the 19th century C.E. and have no equivalent in ancient Hebrew or Greek. It is debatable whether the modern idea of homosexuality (an erotic attraction focused only or primarily on persons of the same gender) existed at all in antiquity. The Bible does not appear to say anything directly about homosexuality in this modern sense of the term, but a few passages do refer to same-gender genital acts." page 602

New Bible Dictionary, Third Edition, IVP Copyright 1996
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition (despite the rather misleading RSV [1st Ed] translation of 1 Cor. 6:9), but its condemnations of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too much." page 478 (I underlined for emphasis)

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Fully Revised, Vol. 4, 1988, Eerdmans
"...how did Paul understand the homosexual behavior he condemned? Evidently he understood it as freely chosen (cf. 'exchanged,' 'gave up') by people for whom heterosexual relations were 'natural,' and as chosen (by heterosexual people) because of their insatiable lust ('consumed with passion')." page 437

I tell you what, Iknow it existed, it was practiced very heavy in some countries and governments. I seen it on history channel. It was mandatory in some governments to get enlisted into the armed forces when you where 8 years old. And, you where asigned to your lover, an old man. They had women who they where asigned to, but it was only for pregnancy. Most of the men didn't want to make those babies, they just wanted to be with their lover men. But, yet, others couldn't wait until it was time.

Romans and Greeks practiced it, and so did some of those other powerful countries during those times.

@HealthAndHappiness Thank YOU for Posting that video. About being ashamed of God's word.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I tell you what, Iknow it existed, it was practiced very heavy in some countries and governments. I seen it on history channel. It was mandatory in some governments to get enlisted into the armed forces when you where 8 years old. And, you where asigned to your lover, an old man. They had women who they where asigned to, but it was only for pregnancy. Most of the men didn't want to make those babies, they just wanted to be with their lover men. But, yet, others couldn't wait until it was time.

Romans and Greeks practiced it, and so did some of those other powerful countries during those times.

@HealthAndHappiness Thank YOU for Posting that video. About being ashamed of God's word.

You are very welcome.
I know you love God's Word too.

When newbies show up here and announce they are a furry, gay or whatever, they get the gospel if I see the post. It seems like they are typically confused young people who fell for the gender confusion lies. They get real love from God by the sacrifice of Christ.
The liberal churches that keep them from salvation and promote sins are the problem.

At the same time, we can agree with the Bible on all sins whether they be violence or unnatural acts.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

God judges mankind for violence.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
I'm not going to get into the theory of giants here or what God may mean by corruption.
One sin that God clearly states for why He destroys humanity is violence. That is first mentioned when Cain kills Able.
It's stressed as the reason God judged the earth.

I will destroy them with the earth.

Following the flood, He then instituted His covenant to remind us to this day that the bow in the sky, as someone recently posted in the top of the forum very beautiful, was a reminder to us and every living creature, that He will not destroy all flesh with a flood.

Satan has recently tried to steal God's symbol for his own. He's such a loser who has to steal what God has made and then tries to turn it into a pretty symbol representing his group of disgusting sins.

 

[JohnDB]

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

the complexity of sexual orientation.

It's not complex, sin is bad, God is good. Follow Jesus' simple instruction "go and sin no more".

 

[legion]

So, you don’t have any commentary; just bible quoting? I’ll bet you ask God, “Should I drink Lite beer or regular?” You might need to fast and pray for such a deep issue lol

You're probably the type that if he gave all the commentary you'd be complaining that he didn't have any bible verses to back it up