-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
if we were supposed to sit back and do nothing, then scripture would tell us explicitly that we have nothing to do... but scripture does not tell us that perseverance is doing nothing. scripture specifically tells us we have things to do...
~ work out our salvation in fear and trembling (philippians 2:12)
~ contend for the faith that was once delivered unto all the saints (Jude 3)
~ Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18-19)
stop sinning (2 John 2:1)
~ confess the sins that we commit (1 John 2:2)
~ endure to the end (matthew 24:13)
~ do not be deceived in any way (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
~ test the spirit to see if they are of God (1 John 4:1)
~ stand firm in the faith (1 Peter 5:9)
~ preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (2 Timothy 4:2)
~ present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God (Romans 12:1)
~ be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect (Romans 12:2)
~ that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:9-10)
the Christian lifestyle is an ACTIVE lifestyle... not a passive one.
perseverance is standing firm in the faith... holding to true doctrine, repentance of our sins, living a righteous life, following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ... ABIDING in Jesus Christ, or remaining in Jesus Christ.
~ work out our salvation in fear and trembling (philippians 2:12)
~ contend for the faith that was once delivered unto all the saints (Jude 3)
~ Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18-19)
stop sinning (2 John 2:1)
~ confess the sins that we commit (1 John 2:2)
~ endure to the end (matthew 24:13)
~ do not be deceived in any way (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
~ test the spirit to see if they are of God (1 John 4:1)
~ stand firm in the faith (1 Peter 5:9)
~ preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (2 Timothy 4:2)
~ present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God (Romans 12:1)
~ be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect (Romans 12:2)
~ that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:9-10)
the Christian lifestyle is an ACTIVE lifestyle... not a passive one.
perseverance is standing firm in the faith... holding to true doctrine, repentance of our sins, living a righteous life, following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ... ABIDING in Jesus Christ, or remaining in Jesus Christ.
C
I completely agree. All of which can be summed up in one word... surrender. I think you will agree that we can do nothing in and of our own strength. That we must first personally experience the grace, guidance and power of the Holy Spirit to perform all of those things. In order for that to happen first we must be willing to surrender. He does the rest in us and though us. 
Last edited:
E
Yet we all sin. John goes as far to say if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and truth is not in us. So tell me. What is the point, how much sin will cause us to lose salvation? Your right sinning is taking control. and saying we know more than God. But how much sin is too much? God says ONE sin is too much. So by your own token, no one could be saved.
Sorry my friend. look up the word. it means unmerited favor. nothing else. People try to make it what it is not. The mere fact we are having this discussion ius by the grace of God. No man deserves to live on this earth. God could have wiped us all out. But by his grace he allows us to live and given the opportunity to come to him. Everything we have is by grace.
Grace is not a religgous word whereby he causes things to happen to us, that is called sanctification. Grace is the reason we evcen have the oportunity to be sanctified.
God will not make us perfect while we are here. God will make us faultless. By his son. when he looks at us, he does not see our filth (sin) he sees his son. and THAT is why we are saved.
Sorry my friend. look up the word. it means unmerited favor. nothing else. People try to make it what it is not. The mere fact we are having this discussion ius by the grace of God. No man deserves to live on this earth. God could have wiped us all out. But by his grace he allows us to live and given the opportunity to come to him. Everything we have is by grace.
Grace is not a religgous word whereby he causes things to happen to us, that is called sanctification. Grace is the reason we evcen have the oportunity to be sanctified.
God will not make us perfect while we are here. God will make us faultless. By his son. when he looks at us, he does not see our filth (sin) he sees his son. and THAT is why we are saved.
E
Only a licentious person would believe this. And james and Jude condemn them. I would never teach anyone has a license to sin.
there is a difference between saying I can sin all I want. and coming to the throne of Grace and admiting I have failed because I am weak. As Paul said. Oh what a wretched man I am. Paul never taught he had a license to sin. he made a statement of fact. That I want to do., i can't find the power to do. Help me oh lord.
there is a difference between saying I can sin all I want. and coming to the throne of Grace and admiting I have failed because I am weak. As Paul said. Oh what a wretched man I am. Paul never taught he had a license to sin. he made a statement of fact. That I want to do., i can't find the power to do. Help me oh lord.
E
Sorry. It is not grace that allows us to stop sinning. It is Grace that sustains us because we CAN"T stop sinning. Again John makes it clear. If we say we have no sin (present tense) we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.
It is the sanctifying work of the HS and our faith in the word of God which allows and helps us to turn from sin.
It is the sanctifying work of the HS and our faith in the word of God which allows and helps us to turn from sin.
E
I fail to see where NotIbutChrist said anything about living sinlessly. He's referring to living a life of surrender to the indwelling Christ and allowing grace to change us from the inside out.
Yes, Grace is absolutely unearned. I don't see where NotI said it wasn't. However, and listen closely, if you have truly experienced the divine grace of God in your life, it will not only change you on the inside but it will change the way you act on the outside. That's why it is called Divine Grace because only His divine grace can transform your life. We are powerless to change otherwise.
Yes, Grace is absolutely unearned. I don't see where NotI said it wasn't. However, and listen closely, if you have truly experienced the divine grace of God in your life, it will not only change you on the inside but it will change the way you act on the outside. That's why it is called Divine Grace because only His divine grace can transform your life.
We are powerless to change otherwise.
What does scripture say? even when we fail he will not deny us, for he can't deny himself. Again. How much sin is to much? What is the deviding point between to much sin and loss of salvation. and just making it and getting in? These are the questions those who teach one can lose salvation must answer.
Again, God says ONE SIN is too much. So if living in sin can cause you to lose grace, we would never make it.
It is grace that sustains us because of our failures. For without grace, we would all be doomed to eternal hell. For no one is good enougj. No one will EVER be good enough.
E
The problem is sin has consequences. Even more sever consequence for a child of God. For not only does a child of God suffer the result of sin (the damage caused by it but the also are chastened by God himself.
Anyone who says there are no consequences are wrong. At the same token. Anyone who says any amount of sin can cause us to lose salvation are placing us back under law. And removing us from Grace
Anyone who says there are no consequences are wrong. At the same token. Anyone who says any amount of sin can cause us to lose salvation are placing us back under law. And removing us from Grace
There are threads and posts in this forum which implies a misconception of what the law really says about sin and sinners. What is crucial to underline here is that sin is not only an outward matter nor something that only applies to things seen by the naked eye. And that breaking a single one of God's commandments equals having breaking them all.
The pharisees had the problem of correctly defining sin and righteousness. A pharisee could "keep the law", according to his own standard. But Jesus showed that they didn't only break the law, they also rejected the law and replaced it with their own traditions. According to the traditions of the pharisees, Paul was "blameless". However, Paul was not blameless before God and His law. In that light he saw himself as the chief of sinners.
Paul said that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel. All regenerated persons knows that the only thing that makes the difference between heaven and hell for them and sanctifies them is the finished work of Christ alone. Not anything in them. The pharisees knew that man was not sinless, but they thought that the striving of keeping the law (not a bad thing to do) was enough to make them righteous. They were ignorant about the righteousness of God.
If anyone preach against sin, let him do that. But let him first of all present which gospel he has. That will tell if his doctrine and intent is true or not.
The pharisees had the problem of correctly defining sin and righteousness. A pharisee could "keep the law", according to his own standard. But Jesus showed that they didn't only break the law, they also rejected the law and replaced it with their own traditions. According to the traditions of the pharisees, Paul was "blameless". However, Paul was not blameless before God and His law. In that light he saw himself as the chief of sinners.
Paul said that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel. All regenerated persons knows that the only thing that makes the difference between heaven and hell for them and sanctifies them is the finished work of Christ alone. Not anything in them. The pharisees knew that man was not sinless, but they thought that the striving of keeping the law (not a bad thing to do) was enough to make them righteous. They were ignorant about the righteousness of God.
If anyone preach against sin, let him do that. But let him first of all present which gospel he has. That will tell if his doctrine and intent is true or not.
i think the main problem we have is seeker frendly Churches that have watered down the gosple and calling every one saved and is ok,false converts are filling the churches to gain self motivation and to hear how good they are or how to become better person than to know the reality of God in their heart, If someone looks at grace and says its a licence to sin then hes not born of God ina first place,Grace is not a licence to sin but it is a power of God in our lives to over come it and even if we fail it will pick us up and bring us to repentence, i dont think one has to prove whether its once saved always saved or not u know wen ur saved,u know wat it means to live in darkness and come into light and the sin once u loved now u will began to run away from it and even if u falll there is this desire in ur heart to get right wid God and repent from it u will be alright..
E
A big hardy AMEN!!
I am reminded when Christ said unless our righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees. I doubt anyone here can claim to have lived a life that exceeds that. and God said even that is not enough.
I think the big probem they, as well as many others even today, have, is we put a measure on sin. I don't drink, smoke cuss, have never had sex outside Gods standard, or killed anyone. so I must be righteous and living the life god wants me to live, We forget the metal attitude sins of pride, lust and others which make us "Ugly" and so totally deserving of eternal death. So we think we cna live a righteous life.
They also had severe pride. How dare someone tell them their works of being good is not enough. or they are deserving of eternal death. Many today have this same pridefull attitude. Thats why they hate "salvation by faith in Christ" and those who teach it. Because they have to admit they could never be good enough, even if they lived the law as the pharisees did.
The problem also lies in the licentious side. Those who teach a "cheap" grace where I can say a prayer and live my life how I want. They are deceived and no more saved than the legalist who praises his good deeds and his righteous living. and condemning those of us who practice and teach a slavation based on Christ's work alone. But who truely understand we will never measure up. But God loves us anyway,
I am reminded when Christ said unless our righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees. I doubt anyone here can claim to have lived a life that exceeds that. and God said even that is not enough.
I think the big probem they, as well as many others even today, have, is we put a measure on sin. I don't drink, smoke cuss, have never had sex outside Gods standard, or killed anyone. so I must be righteous and living the life god wants me to live, We forget the metal attitude sins of pride, lust and others which make us "Ugly" and so totally deserving of eternal death. So we think we cna live a righteous life.
They also had severe pride. How dare someone tell them their works of being good is not enough. or they are deserving of eternal death. Many today have this same pridefull attitude. Thats why they hate "salvation by faith in Christ" and those who teach it. Because they have to admit they could never be good enough, even if they lived the law as the pharisees did.
The problem also lies in the licentious side. Those who teach a "cheap" grace where I can say a prayer and live my life how I want. They are deceived and no more saved than the legalist who praises his good deeds and his righteous living. and condemning those of us who practice and teach a slavation based on Christ's work alone. But who truely understand we will never measure up. But God loves us anyway,
E
Thats your response? I know full well the grace God has imparted on me and many like me. We refuse to go around puffing ourselves up thinking we have somehow "Made it" I will never "make it" I will not be sinless until God destroys this body and gives me my new redeemed body after the resurrection.
I worry that you do not know God at all. And that is sad!
You don't know me. And you have no clue what the word Grace means. Scripture was not written in English. It was written in Greek. To many have distorted the word and made it some religious thing which has nothing to do with the word itself.
I worry that you do not know God at all. And that is sad!
You don't know me. And you have no clue what the word Grace means. Scripture was not written in English. It was written in Greek. To many have distorted the word and made it some religious thing which has nothing to do with the word itself.
A needed reminder indeed. Interestingly enough, if one studies the law, one will see how it implies that man is sinful and commands that man receives the only valid means by which God will deal with his sin (i e, the gospel). Those who do not trust and obey this, will be cut-off.
There is actually only one way for enthusiasts to be able to claim that they are "not sinning". And that is to go the same way that the pharisees went. They have to twist, redefine and ultimately reject God's law, and replace it with another standard, which is possible for men to live up to. Of course this is at root lawlessness, not a strive to be obedient to God's commandments. It is ironic that this kind of legalism actually is antinomian in nature. Like I said in another post: one has to acknowledge God's law properly. Not all people will let God's law judge them or accept what the law says about them. You can see this deception at work in the redefinition of sin and in a superficial sin concept. And, again, this is of course always also related to its opposite - the redefinition of righteousness and justification. Which actually means justifying sin.
In short there are usually two main ways that this is done. One is to indulge in sin and yet say that this is not sin or that this sinning is actually grace at work (the heresy of libertinism). The other one is to claim to have no sin, and when confronted with the law of yet having sin still say: "I don't call that sin" (the heresy of sinless perfectionism). Both these deceptions are antinomian heresies. Therefore both are ignorant of the righteousness of God and none of them believe the gospel.
There is actually only one way for enthusiasts to be able to claim that they are "not sinning". And that is to go the same way that the pharisees went. They have to twist, redefine and ultimately reject God's law, and replace it with another standard, which is possible for men to live up to. Of course this is at root lawlessness, not a strive to be obedient to God's commandments. It is ironic that this kind of legalism actually is antinomian in nature. Like I said in another post: one has to acknowledge God's law properly. Not all people will let God's law judge them or accept what the law says about them. You can see this deception at work in the redefinition of sin and in a superficial sin concept. And, again, this is of course always also related to its opposite - the redefinition of righteousness and justification. Which actually means justifying sin.
In short there are usually two main ways that this is done. One is to indulge in sin and yet say that this is not sin or that this sinning is actually grace at work (the heresy of libertinism). The other one is to claim to have no sin, and when confronted with the law of yet having sin still say: "I don't call that sin" (the heresy of sinless perfectionism). Both these deceptions are antinomian heresies. Therefore both are ignorant of the righteousness of God and none of them believe the gospel.
Once saved always saved is a heresy. Jesus nor any of the diciples ever taught that. In fact, the Apostle Paul taught us not to even judge our own selves and to "Judge NOTHING before the time". He said IT IS THE LORD WHO JUDGES ME.
1Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
At the ending he's saying that those who judge themselves as righteous praise themselves. He's teaching us that it is GOD who gives the praise not our own selves at the last judgment.
1Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
At the ending he's saying that those who judge themselves as righteous praise themselves. He's teaching us that it is GOD who gives the praise not our own selves at the last judgment.
Once Saved Always Saved? Answer: YES
It is written: no one can pluck them (the saved) out of my Father's hand - Jesus from Nazareth.
However those who fall away from their faith in the end is because they weren't really saved in the first place.
Only those who love the truth are saved and the truth is Jesus Christ, who He is and what He has done for us.
Peace.
It is written: no one can pluck them (the saved) out of my Father's hand - Jesus from Nazareth.
However those who fall away from their faith in the end is because they weren't really saved in the first place.
Only those who love the truth are saved and the truth is Jesus Christ, who He is and what He has done for us.
Peace.