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i recently did a study on this...
the only difference between Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism is the concept of Christian perfection.
John Wesley said one can BECOME sinless
James Arminius said to strive for sinlessness
im convinced that John Wesley taught this because in his life, he had strict rules for himself... and yes, methods, on how to live life. because of his own ways and methods of living life, he probably thought it possible to become sinless... I have to gravely disagree with John Wesley, and examine his own life. John Wesley himself had a divorce, indeed two of them (if i'm not mistaken)... John Wesley, like every other human being, had his own problems. James did too... James Arminius said to strive for perfection... and while we will fail from time to time, it shows the grace and forgiveness of God, AND shows the power of God because we cannot do it on our own.
I stand by both scripture and Arminius in saying strive for perfection, even if you do fail from time to time... we are not perfect. No one is perfect or sinless. the only man that was is Jesus. The only time we will become perfect is when He returns and finishes the work He started in us through our faith
the only difference between Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism is the concept of Christian perfection.
John Wesley said one can BECOME sinless
James Arminius said to strive for sinlessness
im convinced that John Wesley taught this because in his life, he had strict rules for himself... and yes, methods, on how to live life. because of his own ways and methods of living life, he probably thought it possible to become sinless... I have to gravely disagree with John Wesley, and examine his own life. John Wesley himself had a divorce, indeed two of them (if i'm not mistaken)... John Wesley, like every other human being, had his own problems. James did too... James Arminius said to strive for perfection... and while we will fail from time to time, it shows the grace and forgiveness of God, AND shows the power of God because we cannot do it on our own.
I stand by both scripture and Arminius in saying strive for perfection, even if you do fail from time to time... we are not perfect. No one is perfect or sinless. the only man that was is Jesus. The only time we will become perfect is when He returns and finishes the work He started in us through our faith
Let's first get some terminology correct here. Antinomianism doesn't necessarily believe that once a person is saved, he is always saved, no matter what he does. Antinomianism is the belief that christians should not use the law of God as a rule for their lives. Antinomians always have another standard (than the law of God) for discerning and measuring sin and righteousness.
Assurance in salvation has nothing to do whatsoever with antinomianism. Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. The fact that God has chosen and predestined a covenant people for Himself, securing their salvation by the means of the work of Christ (His atoning blood and imputed righteousness) is not unrighteousness. To the very contrary, this is the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. Paul said that those who are ignorant of this righteousness are lost, which is proven by their going about to establish a righteousness of their own.
You see, the main problem of synergism is not that it tells us how man can displease God by his actions, that is not incorrect. What is incorrect, and a heresy to that, is that they believe that man can please God, to the point that he is justified and made righteous, by his actions. They reject the righteousness of God and put their trust in their own works or experiences as warrant for their right standing with God. Just as did the apostate israelites of old, and the pharisees, they follow after the law of righteousness, but cannot attain it, because they seek after it in their own works, not by faith. They do not believe the gospel, in which God's righteousness is revealed.
All synergists believe that man has at least some tiny little part to fulfill in either his justification, sanctification or glorification. It's just a matter of how big this part is. Some of them believe that this part comes after regeneration, which they say is God's work, others believe that this part is to be fulfilled already even by natural man before regeneration. Whichever of these beliefs one holds to, then one inevitably holds to the belief that salvation is conditioned on the work of man, not the work of Christ. Those who on the contrary believe the gospel knows that their right standing with God is not conditioned on their positive conduct in any degree or way. They know it is conditioned on the imputed righteousness and blood atonement of Christ alone.
God did not only give us the law to expose our sin but also as a rule for our lives, to show us how we are to respect and love Him. We should strive to obey God's commandments in our actions as well as our thoughts, out of gratefulness and love for Him. We love and delight in God's law and our faith brings good works, we pursue holiness in conduct, we strive to walk as Christ walked, God's commandments are not burdensome for us.
However, any positives in these regards are not our own works by any stretch, nor the result of us co-operating with God, they are all the fruit of God's work, of His will and for His glory alone. There is not a single tiny room for boasting or glory for us. And we are only motivated to approach this rightly and acceptably if we understand that none of this will bring us any righteousness, keep any righteousness, but is to be sought for only because we are already counted as righteous. For the sake of Christ.
Assurance in salvation has nothing to do whatsoever with antinomianism. Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. The fact that God has chosen and predestined a covenant people for Himself, securing their salvation by the means of the work of Christ (His atoning blood and imputed righteousness) is not unrighteousness. To the very contrary, this is the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. Paul said that those who are ignorant of this righteousness are lost, which is proven by their going about to establish a righteousness of their own.
You see, the main problem of synergism is not that it tells us how man can displease God by his actions, that is not incorrect. What is incorrect, and a heresy to that, is that they believe that man can please God, to the point that he is justified and made righteous, by his actions. They reject the righteousness of God and put their trust in their own works or experiences as warrant for their right standing with God. Just as did the apostate israelites of old, and the pharisees, they follow after the law of righteousness, but cannot attain it, because they seek after it in their own works, not by faith. They do not believe the gospel, in which God's righteousness is revealed.
All synergists believe that man has at least some tiny little part to fulfill in either his justification, sanctification or glorification. It's just a matter of how big this part is. Some of them believe that this part comes after regeneration, which they say is God's work, others believe that this part is to be fulfilled already even by natural man before regeneration. Whichever of these beliefs one holds to, then one inevitably holds to the belief that salvation is conditioned on the work of man, not the work of Christ. Those who on the contrary believe the gospel knows that their right standing with God is not conditioned on their positive conduct in any degree or way. They know it is conditioned on the imputed righteousness and blood atonement of Christ alone.
God did not only give us the law to expose our sin but also as a rule for our lives, to show us how we are to respect and love Him. We should strive to obey God's commandments in our actions as well as our thoughts, out of gratefulness and love for Him. We love and delight in God's law and our faith brings good works, we pursue holiness in conduct, we strive to walk as Christ walked, God's commandments are not burdensome for us.
However, any positives in these regards are not our own works by any stretch, nor the result of us co-operating with God, they are all the fruit of God's work, of His will and for His glory alone. There is not a single tiny room for boasting or glory for us. And we are only motivated to approach this rightly and acceptably if we understand that none of this will bring us any righteousness, keep any righteousness, but is to be sought for only because we are already counted as righteous. For the sake of Christ.
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heres a better way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you ,,,,,that is are a body,,,,,and in you is your spirit,,,,,,,,,your body is a 'faithfull servent" that is your hands dont"throw your food over your head",,,,,,,,,your spirit says to your body "put it in my mouth" and it does it,,,,,,,,,,,,problem is your spirit somtimes says "lust",,,,,,somtimes "steal",,,,,,,,,"envy",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,problem is "if my body is the temple of god" that is ,,,,,,,,,,,god is in me,,,my temple of god and you say to your body go up to the "temple of god at soandso" and "envy" well then your body being a faithfull servent will go to the temple of god at "soand so" and offer up evil fruit at the temple of god..........................
on the other hand ,,,,,,,,if your spirit says to your body go to the "temple of god at soandso" and do the work of love,,,,,,,,,,,then you have offered good fruits at the temple of god.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if your spirit said to your body to offer the works of "love" at any of these temples of god,,,,,,,,,,,,it has confessed all wisdom,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is the will of the father is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he wants you to do his will,,,,,,,,,,which is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oft times though,,,,,,,,,,,you will not,,,, so the spirit confessing also confessing an mesiah,,,,,,,,,in redemtion for you in this,,,,,,,,,,,,,yet any of you saying to your temple "go and offer the fruit of love" have with your spirits lips uttered mine fathers name,,wich is his will and all knollage ,,,,,many have come for the name of the father,,,,for if said in blasphamy taketh apart my fathers kingdom,,,,,,,,and they say unto their temple to "hate' and go about laying "hathfull" fruits at the temple of god at me and you,,,,,,,,,but unto you,,,who say to your spirits lips the name of my father you are also the son of the same and as the son of the father is called after his fathers name your name is written in the stone of mine father and it is your name.
on the other hand ,,,,,,,,if your spirit says to your body go to the "temple of god at soandso" and do the work of love,,,,,,,,,,,then you have offered good fruits at the temple of god.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if your spirit said to your body to offer the works of "love" at any of these temples of god,,,,,,,,,,,,it has confessed all wisdom,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is the will of the father is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he wants you to do his will,,,,,,,,,,which is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oft times though,,,,,,,,,,,you will not,,,, so the spirit confessing also confessing an mesiah,,,,,,,,,in redemtion for you in this,,,,,,,,,,,,,yet any of you saying to your temple "go and offer the fruit of love" have with your spirits lips uttered mine fathers name,,wich is his will and all knollage ,,,,,many have come for the name of the father,,,,for if said in blasphamy taketh apart my fathers kingdom,,,,,,,,and they say unto their temple to "hate' and go about laying "hathfull" fruits at the temple of god at me and you,,,,,,,,,but unto you,,,who say to your spirits lips the name of my father you are also the son of the same and as the son of the father is called after his fathers name your name is written in the stone of mine father and it is your name.
it is impossibe for you to say this name out of the intermost 'fein" of the temple,,,,,,,,,,,,you cannot say it in english,or german,,,or any launguage of men but only the spirit.............when the spirit came into me ,,,,,,,,,this was what was left in me this was the part of the father that remained,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,love,,,,,,,,,,,,,it was the whole matter given to me to give to you and it was everything...........
I totally agree with what you're saying. I took my Catholic husband to a bible church when we were away for the weekend. The pastor had the non Christians repeat a prayer if they were not saved. I think he said the prayer, but I've not seen any spiritual change in him. I've been looking for the fruits and the "inner light glow" but I don't see it. I can't judge, but I just don't see it. My husband does have a controlling personality though, so deep down is it possible for him to submit to God?? This could be a problem for him. I completely agree. We can't lose our salvation.
God also purges his children, like a father would discipline his son.
Another thing - people do backslide, but they are still saved. I backslid in my teens, but came back to God this year. I think backsliding can happen if you're not strong in the faith, and you drift back into the world, with all it's distractions. Since coming back to God, I'm getting stronger and really think I missed out on the growth side when I was in my teens. I think God does sometimes let us backslide if that's what we choose, but he brings us back again. With me, he brought me back with a bang.
Anyway, I will always thank God for what he's done for me.
E
I never said that did I. Why do you keep twisting things??
I quoted John. He said if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. Your argument is with John not me.
why are you arguing with John?
Grace is grace. Biblical grace is no different than non biblical grace we or anyone gives to someone else. it is unearned favor.
1. Salvation is by grace through faith. we can never earn it.
2. Once you have it. you cna work and earn reward. But you still truly do not deserve it. All you deserve is damnation. why you think you could ever earn eternal life with God just amazes me!
I quoted John. He said if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. Your argument is with John not me.
why are you arguing with John?
Grace is grace. Biblical grace is no different than non biblical grace we or anyone gives to someone else. it is unearned favor.
1. Salvation is by grace through faith. we can never earn it.
2. Once you have it. you cna work and earn reward. But you still truly do not deserve it. All you deserve is damnation. why you think you could ever earn eternal life with God just amazes me!
E
You got it. So many are decieved.
I think of when Jesus was talking to the man, and he asked him if he obeyed the law. The man said yes since birth. Jesus said sell all your stuff and follow me. The man was saddened and left. He broke the first ocmmandment "Love the lord your god above all else. He loved his things more than God. and he did nt even see he was breaking this command. and thus was guilty and needed Christ.
People who claim to be righteous do not see their own sin. All they see is the sin of other.s and compair themselves to them and say they are good. God must love them. They refuse to look at God as the standard. where they would see they are unrighteous. Even today.
I think of when Jesus was talking to the man, and he asked him if he obeyed the law. The man said yes since birth. Jesus said sell all your stuff and follow me. The man was saddened and left. He broke the first ocmmandment "Love the lord your god above all else. He loved his things more than God. and he did nt even see he was breaking this command. and thus was guilty and needed Christ.
People who claim to be righteous do not see their own sin. All they see is the sin of other.s and compair themselves to them and say they are good. God must love them. They refuse to look at God as the standard. where they would see they are unrighteous. Even today.
E
Eternal life is given, It is eternal. If it is not eternal and can be lost. They Christ lied. He told nicodemus there was but one thing one had to have to recieve eternal life. Believe in the name of the son of God. He did not say be baptised, Go to church, Take the eucharist. Do penance, etc etc to be saved. He said have faith in the word. Him, and the promise he offers based on his son.
those saying you can earn salvation are trying to take a part in salvation. they are also trying to take credit. for all their good deeds, sacraments, and works, and taking credit away from God.
As paul said. How can you get in by grace. but then be perfected by works. Paul calls all those who try to perfect (keep) their salvation by works fools.
E
Wow. Lets take a look at what it says!
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
You see the context? The context is eternal life. And never again parishing (spiritual not physical)
Where do you come up with this stuff? How can you read the word and still listen to your churches ridiculous interpretations like the one you just gave which completely destroys context?
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
You see the context? The context is eternal life. And never again parishing (spiritual not physical)
Where do you come up with this stuff? How can you read the word and still listen to your churches ridiculous interpretations like the one you just gave which completely destroys context?
that's quite an assertion zilla.
and really the only fall-back synergists/holiness folks have.
do you really believe i would promote sin and justify my own sin? quite the opposite, though apparently you've decided it's true, even though you don't know me. and you're willing to say so in a public forum. "sounds like". hmmm.
that's okay though. i understand why things like this are said.
~
the real issue though, is i'm actually pretty clear on what the Law says, zilla. and how much God abhors sin. even one.
and i'm reasonably certain it took Jesus to come all the way from Glory to fulfill The Law on our behalf, and purchase us by His death.
i wonder why His perfectly sinless life under The Law was required?
is that Righteous Life imputed or reckoned to our account? or are we empowered to be perfectly obedient and sinless just like Jesus....if so i suppose He isn't really an High Priest forever. what need?
love zone.
and really the only fall-back synergists/holiness folks have.
do you really believe i would promote sin and justify my own sin? quite the opposite, though apparently you've decided it's true, even though you don't know me. and you're willing to say so in a public forum. "sounds like". hmmm.
that's okay though. i understand why things like this are said.
~
the real issue though, is i'm actually pretty clear on what the Law says, zilla. and how much God abhors sin. even one.
and i'm reasonably certain it took Jesus to come all the way from Glory to fulfill The Law on our behalf, and purchase us by His death.
i wonder why His perfectly sinless life under The Law was required?
is that Righteous Life imputed or reckoned to our account? or are we empowered to be perfectly obedient and sinless just like Jesus....if so i suppose He isn't really an High Priest forever. what need?
love zone.