Once Saved Always Saved?

[cronjecj]

There are some strange teachers out there that say things like once you are saved it is impossible for you to sin. That would be great if it was true, but the problem is instead of these people living perfectly holy lives, they instead just deny the sinfulness of their actions and delude themselves, because they have this idea that it is impossible to sin if you have been saved. They never repent of their sins, because they are too afraid to admit they ever sinned in the first place. However those of you on these forums (and there are many) That accuse everyone that believe in living righteous, and trust that God is able to keep them from sinning, do none of us any favors at all. Furthermore those that teach that God has already forgiven us of all our past, present, and future sins, therefore refuse to repent, believing you are already covered, are just as deluded, and equally in danger of God's wrath.

We are capable of choosing to sin after salvation, but we are also empowered by God to choose not to.

The idea that it is impossible to sin after salvation, and the idea that it is impossible to live sinlessly after salvation are equally false, and equally dangerous.

The idea that it is impossible to loose our faith, and walk away from our salvation is down right heretical

There are different levels of faith

Look at the parable Jesus spoke of,

Matthew 13:3-8 (KJV)
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

The only ones who are truly saved in the first place has good ground the rest don't last. Salvation is secured for the one's that fell on good ground, the rest are the fakes they were but not anymore...

 

[Zilla64007]

using your No True Scotsman fallacy again, are you cronjecj?

 

[Bloodwashed]

The grace of God is more than just the forgiveness of sin(s) and / or future sin. The authentic grace of God will change you from the inside out. If you do not offer the same grace to others that God has so freely bestowed on you, then there's a very good chance that you may have never experienced God's grace.

While it is possible that some may 'mature' slower than others, anyone who truly understands God's grace knows that we can't go on living in sin and selfishness. The reason being is that if Divine grace truly resides in your heart then, with all of your heart, you will want to live out that grace through your own actions.

A person who has the Divine nature (Holy Spirit) living inside of him or herself won't want to fulfill the desires of the flesh because the desires of the flesh are contrary to the Divine nature.

Mind you, none of us are perfect. We all have stumbled from time to time. However, a true partaker of the grace will know immediately if and when they have stumbled and repent accordingly. However, this is no excuse for continual bad behavior. Continual bad behavior is evidence that the grace of God is not alive their hearts and we should ignore any attempts by the these people to teach others.

Grace is no excuse to sin. If you continue on in sin (plural) then this definitive evidence that the grace of God is not in you. If you sin and you think it's no big deal then it is also definitive evidence that the grace of God is not in you. Because sin violates the very nature of Grace.

As christians we must never make the mistake of reducing God's grace to mean forgives of sin be it past, present or future. Grace is the nature of our entire christian experience and if you are not walking in Grace through your actions then Grace is not in you.

If this was a rebuttel to my post you quoted, your going to have to explain yourself. I didn't get it.
In His Love Mark!

 

[cronjecj]

Using your mambo jumbo comebacks, are you Zilla64007?

hmmmmm leeeeets see where i got me info..... yep here it is

 

[Crossfire]

If this was a rebuttel to my post you quoted, your going to have to explain yourself. I didn't get it.
In His Love Mark!

Not a rebuttle but an explaination.

That's kinda' the problem. Most christians today are so used to religious speech, they miss the message. If the grace of God is truly in you then sin should have no power over you. For it is His grace which empowers us to live gracefully. If we surrender our will to His Divine grace, His grace will be lived out through us. Sin no longer is an issue just as long as we are surrendered to His Grace.

The is a supernatural spiritual truth being spoken here that has been lost in modern Christianity.

 

[Zilla64007]

Using your mambo jumbo comebacks, are you Zilla64007?
hmmmmm leeeeets see where i got me info..... yep here it is

No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.

and FYI, your interpretation is wrong... the Bible says something else entirely:

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the Word and at once with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while. For when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the Word, by and by he loses faith.

WHAT DOES 1 PETER 1:5 SAY AGAIN? ANYBODY?

who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

some people havent been reading their Bible... case in point with the above poster.

 

[Crossfire]

Using your mambo jumbo comebacks, are you Zilla64007?

hmmmmm leeeeets see where i got me info..... yep here it is

While I'm sure the author of this post was only attempting to bring a little humor into the convo, let's be respectful to one another guys. Just because we all may not agree on certain specifics, it doesn't make any one of us less saved. Disrespect is a sign of pride and self exaltation.

 

[Zilla64007]

oh, BY THE WAY... when it comes to the early church, one would think that Christians and their teachers would teach OSAS as so many of you proudly claim...

first of all, Bible verses to consider while reading these in mind:
2 Chronicles 15:2
Ezekiel 33:12
Matthew 10:22
Luke 9:62
2 Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 10:26
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 24:13
Luke 17:31, 32
John 8:31, 32
John 15:1-6
Galatians 6:9
James 1:12
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:36

now onto the ante-Nicene church... and what the 1st-3rd century Christians, the Christians who live almost 2000 years before us, believed and taught other Christians...

Epistle of Barnabas (70AD - 130AD)
"We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation, lest the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, should hurl us forth from our life."

"The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. …Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. … And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the 'many who are called,' but not the 'few that are chosen.'"

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
"Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him."

"Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate."

Clement of Rome (96AD)
"Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come.For where can any of us flee from His Mighty Hand?"

Second Clement (130AD)
"Let us therefore repent with the whole heart so that none of us perish by the way"

"let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end"

Shepherd of Hermas (150AD)
"For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, repentance will be possible even to the last day. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand stedfast, therefore, ye who work righteous, ness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair"

"there is but one repentance to the servants of God"

"if you do not guard yourself against anger, you and your house will lose all hope of salvation"

"Put away doubting from you and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, `How can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him? 'Do not thus reason with yourself, but with all your heart turn to the Lord and ask of Him without doubting, and you will know the multitude of His tender mercies; that He will never leave you, but fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them"

Justin Martyr (160AD)
"And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved"

Irenaeus (180AD)
"these men of old time... for whom the Son of God has not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of great disgrace. Accordingly, what will the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord's coming, and have become the slaves of their own lust? Truly, the death of the Lord brought healing and remission of sins to the former. However, Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin. For death will on more have remission over Him... We should not, therefore, as the presbyter remarks, be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of olden times. Rather, we should fear ourselves, least perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out from His Kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said, "For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also not spare you."

"it was not to those who are on the outside that he said those things, but to us- lest we should be cast forth from the kingdom of God, by doing any such thing"

"knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness"

"those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons"

Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
"God's greatest gift is self-restraint. For He Himself said, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you", as having judged you worthy according to the true election. Thus then, while we attempt piously to advance, we will have put on us the mild yoke of the Lord from faith to faith, one charioteer driving each of us onward to salvation"

"he who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome “and strait.” And let him who has once received the Gospel, even in the very hour in which he has come to the knowledge of salvation, “not turn back, like Lot’s wife,” as is said; and let him not go back either to his former life, which adheres to the things of sense, or to heresies."

"For it is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day, but "he that endureth to the end shall be saved"

"God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done. ...So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part."

Tertullian (197AD)
"no one is a Christian but he who preserves even to the end"

"the world returned to sin... and so it is destined to fire. SO is the man who after baptism renews his sins"

"We ought indeed to walk so holily, and with so entire substantiality of faith, as to be confident and secure in regard of our own conscience, desiring that that (gift) may abide in us to the end, yet not presuming (that it will). For he who presumes feels less apprehension; he who feels less apprehension takes less precaution; he who takes less precaution runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation; presumption is an impediment to fear... More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot; for apprehending will lead us to fear, fearing to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us"

"[The Valentnians claim] that since they are already naturalized in the brotherly bond of the spiritual state, they will obtain a certain salvation- one which is on all accounts their due."

"Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So, they turn His liberality into His slavery... For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many? is not this gift taken away from many? These, no doubt, are they who do steal a march upon (the treasure), who, after approaching to the faith of repentance, set up on the sands a house doomed to ruin."

Hippolytus (225AD)
"Hoodwinking multitudes, [Marcus, the Gnostic heretic] deceived many persons of this description who had become his disciples. He taught them that they were prone, no doubt, to sin. However, he said that they were beyond the reach of danger because they belonged to the perfect power. … Subsequent to baptism, these [heretics] promise another, which they call Redemption. And by this, they wickedly subvert those who remain with them in expectation of redemption."

Origen (245AD)
"Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse this passage. They essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost."

"He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying 'I will also deny him'"

Commodianus (240AD)
"Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ"

these are quotes from the first 200 years of Christianity. NOT ONE CHRISTIAN IN THESE CENTURIES EVER CLAIMED OR TAUGHT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. Origen even called it heresy to believe in such a thing... there are MANY other quotes from other early Christian teachers, such as Lactantius, Cyproian, Victorinus, Treatise on Re-Baptism, and the Apostolic Constitutions, but i dont want to quote them right now because all fo this typing has tired my hands, and it's almost 3am in the morning...

that complete and utter fact is this: IF Once Saved Always saved was indeed Biblical, like all of these Calvinists claim, there would of been evidence of this within the writings of the early church... BUT I AM IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER SAYING THAT THEIR WORDS ARE SCRIPTURE.

Irenaeus was an interesting person... Irenaeus was the student of Polycarp, who was, in turn, the student of John the Apostle, the same John that I see so many Calvinists love to quote... Ignatius of Antioch was another of the students of the Apostle John... what did he have to say?

once saved always saved is a lie from Satan.

it was Satan who told Eve she wouldnt die if she sinned...
it was God who said in Genesis and Ezekiel 18:24 that we will die from sin.

 

[Zilla64007]

While I'm sure the author of this post was only attempting to bring a little humor into the convo, let's be respectful to one another guys. Just because we all may not agree on certain specifics, it doesn't make any one of us less saved. Disrespect is a sign of pride and self exaltation.

no, let him... he's showing his true fruits..

and Christ Himself said in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them."

 

[Crossfire]

oh, BY THE WAY... when it comes to the early church, one would think that Christians and their teachers would teach OSAS as so many of you proudly claim...

first of all, Bible verses to consider while reading these in mind:
2 Chronicles 15:2
Ezekiel 33:12
Matthew 10:22
Luke 9:62
2 Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 10:26
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 24:13
Luke 17:31, 32
John 8:31, 32
John 15:1-6
Galatians 6:9
James 1:12
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:36

now onto the ante-Nicene church... and what the 1st-3rd century Christians, the Christians who live almost 2000 years before us, believed and taught other Christians...

Epistle of Barnabas (70AD - 130AD)
"We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation, lest the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, should hurl us forth from our life."

"The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. …Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. … And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the 'many who are called,' but not the 'few that are chosen.'"

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
"Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him."

"Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate."

Clement of Rome (96AD)
"Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come.For where can any of us flee from His Mighty Hand?"

Second Clement (130AD)
"Let us therefore repent with the whole heart so that none of us perish by the way"

"let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end"

Shepherd of Hermas (150AD)
"For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, repentance will be possible even to the last day. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand stedfast, therefore, ye who work righteous, ness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair"

"there is but one repentance to the servants of God"

"if you do not guard yourself against anger, you and your house will lose all hope of salvation"

"Put away doubting from you and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, `How can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him? 'Do not thus reason with yourself, but with all your heart turn to the Lord and ask of Him without doubting, and you will know the multitude of His tender mercies; that He will never leave you, but fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them"

Justin Martyr (160AD)
"And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved"

Irenaeus (180AD)
"these men of old time... for whom the Son of God has not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of great disgrace. Accordingly, what will the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord's coming, and have become the slaves of their own lust? Truly, the death of the Lord brought healing and remission of sins to the former. However, Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin. For death will on more have remission over Him... We should not, therefore, as the presbyter remarks, be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of olden times. Rather, we should fear ourselves, least perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out from His Kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said, "For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also not spare you."

"it was not to those who are on the outside that he said those things, but to us- lest we should be cast forth from the kingdom of God, by doing any such thing"

"knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness"

"those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons"

Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
"God's greatest gift is self-restraint. For He Himself said, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you", as having judged you worthy according to the true election. Thus then, while we attempt piously to advance, we will have put on us the mild yoke of the Lord from faith to faith, one charioteer driving each of us onward to salvation"

"he who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome “and strait.” And let him who has once received the Gospel, even in the very hour in which he has come to the knowledge of salvation, “not turn back, like Lot’s wife,” as is said; and let him not go back either to his former life, which adheres to the things of sense, or to heresies."

"For it is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day, but "he that endureth to the end shall be saved"

"God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done. ...So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part."

Tertullian (197AD)
"no one is a Christian but he who preserves even to the end"

"the world returned to sin... and so it is destined to fire. SO is the man who after baptism renews his sins"

"We ought indeed to walk so holily, and with so entire substantiality of faith, as to be confident and secure in regard of our own conscience, desiring that that (gift) may abide in us to the end, yet not presuming (that it will). For he who presumes feels less apprehension; he who feels less apprehension takes less precaution; he who takes less precaution runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation; presumption is an impediment to fear... More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot; for apprehending will lead us to fear, fearing to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us"

"[The Valentnians claim] that since they are already naturalized in the brotherly bond of the spiritual state, they will obtain a certain salvation- one which is on all accounts their due."

"Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So, they turn His liberality into His slavery... For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many? is not this gift taken away from many? These, no doubt, are they who do steal a march upon (the treasure), who, after approaching to the faith of repentance, set up on the sands a house doomed to ruin."

Hippolytus (225AD)
"Hoodwinking multitudes, [Marcus, the Gnostic heretic] deceived many persons of this description who had become his disciples. He taught them that they were prone, no doubt, to sin. However, he said that they were beyond the reach of danger because they belonged to the perfect power. … Subsequent to baptism, these [heretics] promise another, which they call Redemption. And by this, they wickedly subvert those who remain with them in expectation of redemption."

Origen (245AD)
"Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse this passage. They essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost."

"He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying 'I will also deny him'"

Commodianus (240AD)
"Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ"

these are quotes from the first 200 years of Christianity. NOT ONE CHRISTIAN IN THESE CENTURIES EVER CLAIMED OR TAUGHT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. Origen even called it heresy to believe in such a thing... there are MANY other quotes from other early Christian teachers, such as Lactantius, Cyproian, Victorinus, Treatise on Re-Baptism, and the Apostolic Constitutions, but i dont want to quote them right now because all fo this typing has tired my hands, and it's almost 3am in the morning...

that complete and utter fact is this: IF Once Saved Always saved was indeed Biblical, like all of these Calvinists claim, there would of been evidence of this within the writings of the early church... BUT I AM IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER SAYING THAT THEIR WORDS ARE SCRIPTURE.

Irenaeus was an interesting person... Irenaeus was the student of Polycarp, who was, in turn, the student of John the Apostle, the same John that I see so many Calvinists love to quote... Ignatius of Antioch was another of the students of the Apostle John... what did he have to say?

once saved always saved is a lie from Satan.

it was Satan who told Eve she wouldnt die if she sinned...
it was God who said in Genesis and Ezekiel 18:24 that we will die from sin.

Good stuff! Unfortunately many will disregard these testimonies of the early church fathers because these testimonies do not line up with their preferred doctrines. A shame really.

I will be the first to stand up and declare that a person can not willingly pursue a lifestyle of sin and still be saved. However, if a person truly understands how grace works in the life of the believer, you will also understand how God himself preserves the believer through the power of Divine grace. God does in deed do all the work - both in us and through us. The only role that a person plays in the process is that he or she willingly humble themself, allowing God to have His way in and through the life of the believer.

 

[Red33]

God's plan for man was not to fix man and his sick head and wicked heart, but to redeem him completely through salvation that He would provide through the death, burial and resurrection of His Son. He makes all things new, not just some things and then fixes the rest. We have been made new creatures with a new nature through the new birth making ALL things new. That is regeneration. So when God decided to save the sinner through a plan of redemption, it was going to be complete with nothing left undone to fix. It was going to be once and for ALL and He was going to save those that believe to the uttermost (Heb 7:25).

There is no confusion, He is God and we are sinful men and His salvation is judicially perfect and complete and individual through His Son. When a sinner believes and is saved by grace through the faith in the finished work of Christ, that is a past completed act with continuous action that can not be interrupted or nullified because the recipient has been fully justified by God instantly through that act of faith without a single work involved on man's part but to believe. Salvation is complete, permanent and has been provided by God who can not repent or lie about what He has promised to sinful man. Salvation is unconditional and irreversible and is something that can only be given to man through faith and not taken from man because sin or a lack of faith once it has been given and imputed by grace.

 

[zone]

oh, BY THE WAY... when it comes to the early church, one would think that Christians and their teachers would teach OSAS as so many of you proudly claim...

hi zilla.
i read all of your post. and would like to discuss it with you.
generally you and i are able to have civil discussions though we disagree, so though not in the hope of having you reject arminianism, can i just ask some simple questions to understand what's at the heart of the matter? hopefully you personally can tell me how arminians resolve certain issues.

i'll go ahead and post, and see from there.
sorry if it gets long and convoluted.
zone

~

without commenting on the thoughts/doctrines of all the men you quoted (christians and godly men though they may have been);

i have a couple questions/comments:

Q:

does your position say that the ante-nicene fathers you quoted were Divinely inspired yet were rejected from canon?

~

Epistle of Barnabas (70AD - 130AD) .....has serious problems outside the use of it to reject eternal security. you know that, right?

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD): "anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine [shall not inherit the kingdom of God]"

does ignatius have any clearer arminian doctrine you could post than this? for this seems to describe wolves, not sheep. no need to post it if he does, just pointing out this in itself is a warning of other gospels. did he say eternal security was "another gospel"?

Clement of Rome (96AD): also said that God had "set the grace of repentence before the whole world", (and ignatius appears to have agreed according to aminianists) meaning the Father draws ALL men on earth to Christ, the "grace of repentence" coming FIRST.

whether that's what these men actually intended to say or not is not my real concern: my question for you would be:

Q:

how does that belief square with this (in its entire context, not just the quote): i'm trying to determine if ALL MEN DRAWN HAVING BEEN GRANTED THE GRACE OF REPENTENCE is true.

John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

and these (even in their full context), which clearly say there were some while Jesus was ministering that were NOT called to Him, were NOT granted any knowledge (no repentence):

Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Matthew 19:11
But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.

and the thorny issue:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

~

Shepherd of Hermas (150AD): "For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits."

(i suspect though hope you can set it straight: is he referring to Hebrews 6?)

do you personally agree with the above statement by Shepherd of Hermas?

how does that square with Jesus Himself saying (even in full context):

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

so i wonder if you can tell me how arminianism resolves this issue. does it have Jesus promising no judgment, granting eternal life then taking it away?

C:

most of the quotes you posted contain things i see most christians i dialogue with (more than once) say and hold in their hearts - that is, great shame and fear of their past lives and a desire to keep turning and looking to Christ, no more living as they did. (i realize you personally don't believe this is true of the overwhelming majority of christians you talk to, but i testify IT IS what i see and hear).

i guess it comes down to a single issue: what do we do with sin (EVEN ONE) in the life of someone who:

hears and believes the Gospel; is baptised; openly professes their love for The Lord who bought them; foresakes his former glorying in his shame; tries to continue in the apostle's doctrine; seeks the fellowship of other christians (to whatever degree WE may think we SEE that as a snapshot in anyone's life* more on this in a following post....)

really, zilla, , i've yet to meet a believer who is able to articulate the Gospel and all things pertaining to their Saviour and His Work who remains in bondage to a life of sin - i have never met one!

i have however met many people who said a prayer at a revival once (or more than once!); think they are saved christians because their parents went to chruch etc and say they're going to heaven because they're good people, and live just as they did before.

now if i entered some mega-church somewhere (or some other cult) where the Law & Gospel is not taught, there's absolutely no question there's going to be a mix of regenerate and unregenerate people in there.

Q:

what do we do with John's statement?

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

~

this is long, so i'll end this post with this passage and hope you can break down for me how arminianism resolves the entire passage and meaning, including the tenses.

this is a passage i do hope you could spend a few minutes on for me zilla, i really hope to see how arminianism handles this truth. i won't bother boldly and underlining...it speaks for itself.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

~

peace
zone.

 

[cronjecj]

no, let him... he's showing his true fruits..

and Christ Himself said in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them."

Yes your fruits is showing..its a shame.

in Christ

 

[zone]

zilla:

here's a hypothetical scenario i want to put forward, from two angles (substitute any hypothetical people you wish).

it may be silly, and if you don't want to engage with it, that's fine.

the reason for posting it is, is OUR 'looking' into someone's else life the basis on which we decide they are not saved/were once but lost it?

zone.

~

FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN:

we have Bob who lives in the neighbourhood: he is a professing, active Christian.

Bob has a godly wife and his children have done well and moved to have families of their own: they are all active church members and place their hope and trust in Christ.

across the street a family moves in.

Bob watches this family for a few years, never getting to know any of them personally, just waving and meeting at the mailbox. (whether Bob is graciously granting them privacy or whether he would rather not get involved doesn't matter).

Bob sees the family consists of a Dad, a teenage son, and what appears to be other grubby-looking relatives who come and go. a recent divorce is obvious.

there is too often loud rap music; raised voices; disrespectful kids coming and going in loud cars etc.
sometimes Bob sees a tattooed girl coming and going, clearly involved with the teenaged son. beer cans on the driveway at times.

Bob knows the Dad goes to work daily, and sees the Dad, as well, at times working outside but the yard and house keep falling into neglect.

the Dad's countenance is often depressed and withdrawn, though he puts on a good face at the market when Bob sees him there, he doesn't talk much. he appears to not be interested in even small talk with Bob, who is well-groomed and living a clearly transformed life....Bob's countenance indicates (for the most part) someone who has joy and peace.

another year goes by and the situation doesn't change much at all. the curtains across the street are drawn much of the time, but Bob is pretty certain it's because whatever is going on in there is sinful (which he has definitely seen outside), and he knows that if they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't be behaving that way.

Bob has decided by all accounts the family is completely lost and headed for hell. every part of their lives that he can see indicates it.

is Bob right?

 

[tribesman]

Q: does your position say that the ante-nicene fathers you quoted were Divinely inspired yet were rejected from canon?

~

....

Good post. The pharisaical sinless crowd likes to quote anti-nicene fathers out of context and would gladly use statements from handpicked early church fathers that supposedly believed in free-willism and justificaion by works. They are not as happy to follow other teachings of the same people though. So much for their goofy talk about the reformation being a theological newcomer or accusations of non-traditional doctrine, even as they themself pick and choose among contradictive statements and doctrines at the pluralist-modernist smorgasbord.

Honesty and consequence (and thereby decency) is the last thing that they would have in this regard. (These sin-free people are sinning grossly even in this). After all, pietists, moralists and hypercharismatics don't give a fig about creeds and doctrine at the end of the day. Everything in their world is about their own works and "experiences" (though it's mostly just their own feelings), with which they puff up their selves.

Synergism is always a dangerous heresy, at any level and under whatever form it disguises itself. Some synergists (and arminians) will say that regeneration is a work only of God, man has no part to fulfill in it. Which sounds good. However, these same people will then also go on to say that after regeneration man has to work to keep his salvation and go up the ladder of "sanctification" by his "co-operating" with God to hopefully be able to fulfill his "part" and, in best case, have his work accepted in order to be saved "in the end".

In their deceieved minds faith, submission, change of one's heart, overcoming sins, endurance etc is a work, not a fruit. A work where man has the full control and the final say. They all fail completely to see the diametrical gulf between works and fruit. Therefore every form of synergism amounts to and equals self-righteousness and works salvation. Did you ever hear this typical synergist double-talk: "God has done everything for your salvation, you just need to do your part...".

Just like Jehovah's witnesses used to put it back then, justification in their thinking means a "probational righteousness", that God only loans man in order to see if he uses his "ability" to keep it, or not. This, of course, is not a free grace to be received by convicted sinners (such as Paul confessed that he was, even after regeneration), and of course it's not a gift, that would be all too "cheap". They believe in a god that charges men costly for his grace, and would only accept the high bids from the already (self) righteous.

 

[zone]

hey Tribesman.
its no secret around here that i'd agree with your post
on all counts.

the Mighty Saul of Tarsus professed being blameless under the Law, and formerly possessing every conceivable reason for considering himself acceptable to God.

and yet he forever shut down the idea of any form of human righteousness ever being acceptable to God...including the idea that the amazing message of Romans 7 applied (as our perfectionist friends would have us believe) applied to his former life.

as the ESV politely translates it: RUBBISH!

i wonder why the OTHER Righteousness that comes from Someone Else (outside ourselves) is so tragically neglected.

or worse, is considered the example we must match! though incredibly, it is claimed by some!

love zone.

Philippians 3
Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
1Finally, my brothers,a rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of Godb and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,c blameless. 7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

[notIbutChrist]

Truth is hate to those that hate truth

 

[zone]

FROM THE INSIDE, WHAT BOB DID NOT SEE:

the Dad (Bill) across the street had been drawn to the Cross 1 year before the family moved in.

Bill's former wife refused to accept this "religion" of Bill's and couldn't stand the change in him, the things he now talked about. she left him and their son, and filed for divorce.

in the process, Bill lost their home and all their savings to alimony and the disruption of his employment.

Bill had been struggling to adjust to his new life, though his joy not fully extinguished. he had been trying to settle into a local church until he lost the house. it was chaotic yet he clung to Jesus through it all.

since Bill had only received the new birth so late in life, here he was with an unbelieving and rebellious teenager, and no home.

but he loved his son and was determined to hold on to him, and try to lead him to the truth. he was painfully aware his son's condition was just as his had been but 1 year before.

Bill had to relocate, and lost his fledgling start with the local church, but struggled to make contact with a pastor in the new location, with whom he met at least once a week, and tried to attend services each sunday.

Bill learned to consistently and firmly, but without losing his son to the street, turn away the other teens and influences that continued to show up. occassionally it ended in raised voices, but Bill held firm.

Bill kept the living room curtains closed because the house was so small, the tiny living room was the only place he found he could set up a desk to study and have a private place to pray and spend time with the Lord in peace. it was Bill's little sanctuary.

he kept working (though his co-workers now wanted nothing to do with him, since he no longer went to the bar after work, he just wasn't the same). adjusting to the way he was now treated, and the reaction of people he thought were his friends was shocking. Bill was learning how offensive the message of the Cross really is.

Bill's son was hard to handle (Bill knew he was reaping what he had sown in his life before The Cross) and wouldn't help at all with home and yard, but slowly Bill was noticing his son was a little more respectful, and though the teenage friends would still drop by, the son had taken to meeting with them OUTSIDE, in the driveway, rather than disrespect his Dad's new rules.

Bill knew very well his life in the new neighbourhood, as far as onlookers was concerned, didn't reflect Jesus well at all. and he was ashamed of this, since the few times he had spoken to one neighbour, he had felt the distain and judgment (but at times wondered if he was only imagining it).

he decided to carry on quietly with his pastor and attend the church (NOT BOB'S) when he could, even though he had been forced to work sometimes on Sundays to make ends meet.

Bill studied late into the night, and at every opportunity, with his pastor's help, he explained to his son about Jesus, and though the son was initally enraged that many of the things that used to be allowed (and in fact Dad had indulged and encouraged) were no longer acceptable inside the house, he did see that change in his Dad.

the Dad that at one time didn't come on Friday nights, and was never interested in his son at all. this new Dad was different. things were changing and the only reason, Bill kept saying, was because of JESUS. the son was starting to listen. sometimes the son's best friend would listen too.

.....................................

had Bob been right about Bill (and by extension his whole family)?

 

[tribesman]

...the Mighty Saul of Tarsus professed being blameless under the Law, and formerly possessing every conceivable reason for considering himself acceptable to God. ...and yet he forever shut down the idea of any form of human righteousness ever being acceptable to God...including the idea that the amazing message of Romans 7 ... (as our perfectionist friends would have us believe) applied to his former life. as the ESV politely translates it: RUBBISH!.

We might need to underline clearly that Paul was "blameless" under the law as a pharisee (which included persecuting believers in Christ) and thus in the pharisaical tradition and (re)defintion of blamelessness (i.e. the rejection of God's law for the traditions and commandments of men). Not blameless before God and His law - other than in Christ.

Rom.7

[14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[AnandaHya]

Good post. The pharisaical sinless crowd likes to quote anti-nicene fathers out of context and would gladly use statements from handpicked early church fathers that supposedly believed in free-willism and justificaion by works. They are not as happy to follow other teachings of the same people though. So much for their goofy talk about the reformation being a theological newcomer or accusations of non-traditional doctrine, even as they themself pick and choose among contradictive statements and doctrines at the pluralist-modernist smorgasbord.

Honesty and consequence (and thereby decency) is the last thing that they would have in this regard. (These sin-free people are sinning grossly even in this). After all, pietists, moralists and hypercharismatics don't give a fig about creeds and doctrine at the end of the day. Everything in their world is about their own works and "experiences" (though it's mostly just their own feelings), with which they puff up their selves.

Synergism is always a dangerous heresy, at any level and under whatever form it disguises itself. Some synergists (and arminians) will say that regeneration is a work only of God, man has no part to fulfill in it. Which sounds good. However, these same people will then also go on to say that after regeneration man has to work to keep his salvation and go up the ladder of "sanctification" by his "co-operating" with God to hopefully be able to fulfill his "part" and, in best case, have his work accepted in order to be saved "in the end".

In their deceieved minds faith, submission, change of one's heart, overcoming sins, endurance etc is a work, not a fruit. A work where man has the full control and the final say. They all fail completely to see the diametrical gulf between works and fruit. Therefore every form of synergism amounts to and equals self-righteousness and works salvation. Did you ever hear this typical synergist double-talk: "God has done everything for your salvation, you just need to do your part...".

Just like Jehovah's witnesses used to put it back then, justification in their thinking means a "probational righteousness", that God only loans man in order to see if he uses his "ability" to keep it, or not. This, of course, is not a free grace to be received by convicted sinners (such as Paul confessed that he was, even after regeneration), and of course it's not a gift, that would be all too "cheap". They believe in a god that charges men costly for his grace, and would only accept the high bids from the already (self) righteous.

would this be a good time to interject into the conversation the concept of Monergism?

Monergism :: Arturo G. Azurdia III

he says it more eloquently then I.

"Monergistic regeneration sits at the heart and core of the message of our ministry because it is the fruit of the work of Jesus Christ applied by the Holy Spirit to those He loves ... ... "