oh, BY THE WAY... when it comes to the early church, one would think that Christians and their teachers would teach OSAS as so many of you proudly claim...
hi zilla.
i read all of your post. and would like to discuss it with
you.
generally you and i are able to have civil discussions though we disagree, so though not in the hope of having you reject arminianism, can i just ask some simple questions to understand what's at the heart of the matter? hopefully you personally can tell me how arminians resolve certain issues.
i'll go ahead and post, and see from there.
sorry if it gets long and convoluted.
zone
~
without commenting on the thoughts/doctrines of
all the men you quoted (christians and godly men though they may have been);
i have a couple questions/comments:
Q:
does your position say that the ante-nicene fathers you quoted were Divinely inspired yet were rejected from canon?
~
Epistle of Barnabas (70AD - 130AD) .....has serious problems outside the use of it to reject eternal security. you know that, right?
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD): "anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine [shall not inherit the kingdom of God]"
does ignatius have any clearer arminian doctrine you could post than this? for this seems to describe wolves, not sheep. no need to post it if he does, just pointing out this in itself is a warning of other gospels. did he say eternal security was "another gospel"?
Clement of Rome (96AD): also said that God had "set the grace of repentence before the whole world", (and ignatius appears to have agreed according to aminianists) meaning the Father draws ALL men on earth to Christ, the "grace of repentence" coming FIRST.
whether that's what these men actually intended to say or not is not my real concern: my question for you would be:
Q:
how does that belief square with this (in its entire context, not just the quote): i'm trying to determine if
ALL MEN DRAWN HAVING BEEN GRANTED THE GRACE OF REPENTENCE is true.
John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that
no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
and these (even in their full context), which clearly say there were some while Jesus was ministering that were NOT called to Him, were NOT granted any knowledge (no repentence):
Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Matthew 19:11
But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.
and the thorny issue:
John 6:37
All that the Father
gives me
will come to me, and
whoever comes to me
I will never cast out.
John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that
no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
~
Shepherd of Hermas (150AD): "For the Lord has sworn by His glory,
in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits."
(i suspect though hope you can set it straight: is he referring to Hebrews 6?)
do you personally agree with the above statement by Shepherd of Hermas?
how does that square with Jesus Himself saying (even in full context):
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but
has passed from death to life.
so i wonder if you can tell me how arminianism resolves this issue. does it have Jesus promising no judgment, granting eternal life
then taking it away?
C:
most of the quotes you posted contain things i see most christians i dialogue with (more than once) say and hold in their hearts - that is, great shame and fear of their past lives and a desire to keep turning and looking to Christ, no more living as they did. (i realize you personally don't believe this is true of the overwhelming majority of christians you talk to, but i testify IT IS what i see and hear).
i guess it comes down to a single issue: what do we do with sin (EVEN ONE) in the life of someone who:
hears and believes the Gospel; is baptised; openly professes their love for The Lord who bought them; foresakes his former glorying in his shame; tries to continue in the apostle's doctrine; seeks the fellowship of other christians
(to whatever degree WE may think we SEE that as a snapshot in anyone's life* more on this in a following post....)
really, zilla, ,
i've yet to meet a believer who is able to articulate the Gospel and all things pertaining to their Saviour and His Work who remains in bondage to a life of sin - i have never met one!
i
have however met many people who said a prayer at a revival once (or more than once!); think they are saved christians because their parents went to chruch etc and
say they're going to heaven because they're good people, and live just as they did before.
now if i entered some mega-church somewhere (or some other cult) where
the Law & Gospel is not taught, there's absolutely no question there's going to be a mix of regenerate and unregenerate people in there.
Q:
what do we do with John's statement?
1 John 5:13
I write these things to
you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may
know that you
have eternal life.
~
this is long, so i'll end this post with this passage and hope you can break down for me how arminianism resolves the entire passage and meaning, including the tenses.
this is a passage i do hope you could spend a few minutes on for me zilla, i really hope to see how arminianism handles this truth. i won't bother boldly and underlining...it speaks for itself.
Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body
a and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4But
b God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
~
peace
zone.