False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[GWH]

This might be true if one ignores some obscure historical data.

And you have tried to qualify my statement. I did not say non-believing 1st century Jews, there were many believing Jews who had access to the same knowledge that we have only with serious digging. I trust that you are aware that the obscure data implies that Joseph Caiaphas, Antipas and Pilate were all believers, and that Tiberius knew of the resurrection and investigated it before he accepted it as a real event.

Well, that implication is nice. Yes, the apostles were believing Jews.
Too bad the Judaizers did/do not believe.

 

[Journey_man]

You illustrate the need to harmonize Scriptures in order to synthesize the most correct understanding of a doctrine.
Jesus also spoke through Paul, who did NOT teach that WB is necessary for salvation.
Synthesis: WB was commanded until the church was established, but SB is eternal (Rom. 5:5, Eph. 4:6, 1Cor. 13:13).
Like PC (Acts 15:5-11), WB is still permitted (Col. 2:8-17), but not required (Acts 16:31, Rom. 8:9).

Paul didn't need to mention the obvious, he came into the picture at a time when it was well known and well established fact that water baptism is necessary for all the converted believers. The fact that Paul didn't speak about something, doesn't mean it was no longer required.

And none of those scriptures you referred to above mention baptism at all, so I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion.

 

[GWH]

Paul didn't need to mention the obvious, he came into the picture at a time when it was well known and well established fact that water baptism is necessary for all the converted believers. The fact that Paul didn't speak about something, doesn't mean it was no longer required.

And none of those scriptures you referred to above mention baptism at all, so I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion.

Well, Eph. 4:6 should have been 4:5 ("one Lord, one faith, one baptism"), and I should have cited 1Cor. 12:13.

Rom. 5:5 says God gives believers the loving HS, which is SB, and 1Cor. 13:13 says love--IOW the HS or SB--remains.

I have no idea why you think Paul would not mention something (WB) essential for salvation in most epistles,
as he does saving faith and the HS/SB.

At the time it was obvious to Jews that PC was necessary, which is why Paul wrote so much about salvation via faith,
not works such as both PC and WB that may follow faith/conversion/salvation but are not essential.

 

[Journey_man]

Well, Eph. 4:6 should have been 4:5 ("one Lord, one faith, one baptism"), and I should have cited 1Cor. 12:13.

Rom. 5:5 says God gives believers the loving HS, which is SB, and 1Cor. 13:13 says love--IOW the HS or SB--remains.

I have no idea why you think Paul would not mention something (WB) essential for salvation in most epistles,
as he does saving faith and the HS/SB.

At the time it was obvious to Jews that PC was necessary, which is why Paul wrote so much about salvation via faith,
not works such as both PC and WB that may follow faith/conversion/salvation but are not essential.

Again, none of those verses negate the requirement of baptism for a believer. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but it is a requirement for those who have been saved. The Lord Jesus commanded it and you will never convince anyone that it's not necessary for believers.

 

[ATG]

Something to think about but I know of no passages that uses repentance as the moment of the remission of sins.

I haven't already quoted the Scriptures?

Mar 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In any case, there is no single passage that has grace as the moment for remission of sins.

And so, we see the classic separation of Scriptures: To separate what we don't want from Scripture, from what we do want from Scripture: There is no remission of sins without repentance and grace.

There are people that want the Savior, but not the Lord, so also the remission, but not the repentance and grace to sin no more.

 

[ATG]

It's not about negating passages in the Bible about water baptism. It's about putting water baptism in its proper place. Subsequent to salvation through faith. There are a handful of alleged proof texts that certain folks use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, although they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation.

While we agree for churches today, we cannot apply it to the beginning church at Jerusalem:

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We have to acknowledge that baptism of the Jews was clearly for remission of sins. No Jewish disciple of John and Jesus Christ could hope to have their sins remitted without baptism.

The gospel of Jesus Christ however does not preach baptism for remission to the churches of God beyond those Jews at Jerusalem.

Baptism was never preached again for remission of sins, including the Jews of Samaria and around Judea. As you say, the record is clear that baptism was for the new disciples, but not for remission of sins.

It's clear that when the gospel of Jesus Christ was first preached by the apostle, that baptism in Jesus' name, following after the baptism of John, was indeed for the remission of sins. And that's the only time we read in the NT record of baptism for remission.

So, if anyone wants to preach the gospel of baptism for remission of sins, they need to do so at Jerusalem, but are already about 2000 years too late.

I once attended Universal Pentecost service, where Acts 2:38 was specifically preached. I got baptized elsewhere.

 

[ATG]

The bible revelas the truth, you reckon "a transgressor seeks the salvation of Jesus". But that's not true, because Gods Word reveals that nobody seeks salvation,

Deu 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Zec 8:22
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

Luk 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and the only thing we seek is to fulfill our lust and sinful desires.

So you are still seeking to fulfill your own lust. The scripture says you certainly will fulfill it. Which makes sense from the Scripture.

2Ch 12:14
And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

If you seek the Lord and His righteousness first, you can find Him and not fulfill your lust, because the Lamb will take it away from your heart:

Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Peter 1:3
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

John 8:29 doesn't apply to any man, it only applies to God the Son. God never sent you or me, that's why we don't do His will. We were concieved in sin and that's why we inherited our sin nature from our parents.

'We' again? What church are you a part of? Or, are you only speaking of other seekers of their own lust like yourself?

Jas 1:14
Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And John 1:13 conforms what I'm trying to say,

It's obvious what you are trying to say, because you say it plainly: You and others are still seeking your own lust to fulfill, and are not seeking the salvation of the Lord from lust and sin. No one is disagreeing with your testimony, however bad it is.

that being that there in nothing good in man, as such it is impossible for us to do Gods will or to please Him in any way. As the verse declares that it is God who works through His people, to will and to do. That must mean that we are unwilling and unable to do any good of our own.

Now this is confusing. How can there be no good in someone, in whom God Himself is working? How can God be working in anyone that is not pleasing Him in any way?

Unless that God and Christ is unrighteous himself?

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

 

[Dino246]

So you are still seeking to fulfill your own lust. The scripture says you certainly will fulfill it. Which makes sense from the Scripture.

If you seek the Lord and His righteousness first, you can find Him and not fulfill your lust, because the Lamb will take it away from your heart:

'We' again? What church are you a part of? Or, are you only speaking of other seekers of their own lust like yourself?

It's obvious what you are trying to say, because you say it plainly: You and others are still seeking your own lust to fulfill, and are not seeking the salvation of the Lord from lust and sin. No one is disagreeing with your testimony, however bad it is.

Why do you take the words of others in the worst possible way? Is your mind so warped by bad doctrine that you can’t see the obvious implication of his statement without interpreting it as personal testimony?

 

[ATG]

You have failed to distinguish between a saved sinner and an unsaved sinner.

No, both are still sinners doing evil against the Lord.

The Scriptures distinguish between unsaved sinners and saved saints.

Psa 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful...Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Both will sin every day for the rest of their lives, as there is no way to stop sinning in this life.

2Pe 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

I reject preaching sin to any people, including to the unbelievers, but especially to anyone naming Christ.

Jesus Christ only preaches repenting of sins to all sinners, especially any naming Christ:

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the nations, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I can't summarise the difference between the two in a breif way, without teaching the you the fundamentals first and

Scripture does.

1Co 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[ATG]

I just don't have the time and I don't think you'd be willing to learn something new.

What you're teaching is nothing new:

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Rev 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There are many examples in the bible where born again believers commit sins such as murder and adultery.

The Scriptural record does show born again believers committing such things in turning from the Lord unto destruction:

1Jo 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

God doesn't go back on His promise to save those who believe.

God's promise of mercy is to those who repent, and believe Jesus Christ.

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

God's promise of wrath is to those who repent not, and believe another Christ.

Rom 2:3
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?...But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Paul described the reality of luiving as a born again Christians when he said that he is overwhelmed by his will to do evil, he tries to resist it but it's more powerful than his will to do good.

Paul, like James, spoke of the double hearted sinners that need to repent and be delivered by the Lord, to do good and not evil.

Rom 7:24,
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jas 4:6
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Paul also testified of himself being the chief example of how any sinner can repent, and be converted by Jesus to His saints. Paul used his own example of being converted from a persecutor and murderer of the saints:

Gal 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

1Ti 1:12
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul now preaches that same gospel of Jesus Christ that delivered him, is for all sinners that repent:

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The good news of Jesus Christ is for them that repent, who were sinners and trespassers of the world, and now are saints of God.

There's nothing good about preaching unrepented sinners and trespassers into the grave, and never becoming sons of God.

They admitted the awful truth and God is always ready and willing to forgive those of us who ask.

They repented of the awful doing evil, not preach it unto the grave.

Jesus Christ forgives those that repent from doing evil.

Jer 25:5
They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

Eze 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Act 3:26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

He judges awful evil doers.

Jde 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[ATG]

We are not saved by works done in unrightrousness before faith or by works done in righteousness after faith.

Certainly not if we're not doing righteousness after faith.

1Jo 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing not righteousness is not of God.

Only saints doing righteousness by Jesus' faith are justified with Him.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John{2:29} I
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that is doing righteousness is born of him.

We are not saved by works in general. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

We are not saved by works of unrighteousness, specifically and in general.

Only the righteous living by the faith of Jesus are justified with Him.

Heb 10:38
Now The just shall live by faith:

ATG said:
1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Believers practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.

And people are not doing righteousness, BECAUSE they are not saved, and they are the unrighteous.

We can bandy about with words all day, but no one doing unrighteousness shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Imputed righteousness (cause) precedes doing righteousness. (effect)

This is where word play becomes a snare. Abraham wasn't doing right, when He believed God and was imputed righteousness?? He certainly wasn't doing wrong.

So if Abraham was doing neither good nor evil, what was he doing when he believed God for righteousness?

This is where being righteous and justified by faith alone without works is an impractical fiction.

Faith does not remain alone (barren of works) yet we are still saved through faith at its origin (Ephesians 2:5-9) and good works follow. (Ephesians 2:10)

And yet faith alone barren of works saves... In any case, salvation does not remain alone without works of righteousness.

And there is no salvation by any faith with works of unrighteousness, not at it's unrighteous origin, nor at any time.

There is nothing dysfunctional about faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which justifies. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and works? NO. Hence, faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There's nothing about faith alone apart from works, being faith in Jesus Christ alone, apart from other gods and christs.

After being saved/justified by faith we then live by faith. (Galatians 2:20)

Certainly, since when we are saved/justified by faith we are doing good.

We're certainly not doing evil.

Only those who have been justified by faith/saved afterwards live by faith, are doers of the word, produce works.

"Afterwards' is another word game. Is there some sort of starting time to do good, when being saved/justified by faith 'alone'?

How long does a new convert need to delay doing good, in order to ensure we're only saved by our faith 'alone'?

Since I reject any gospel of salvation/justification by faith alone, if I were to repent and be converted, would I have to stop doing the good I do now, in order to be converted?

In any case, There certainly isn't any mandatory delay to please God, when we receive Jesus Christ alone. He's always pleasing God:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

And so, let's stop the bandying about, and be plain: If you're preaching that this 'original' faith alone continues to save us, apart from works we are now doing, then I reject any such gospel of justification by faith alone while doing evil, and not good...

And I'll not stop doing any good, in order to be converted and saved by any such 'original' faith alone, that must be originally 'barren of works' to save and justify me...

You still do not understand the difference between faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14-20)

Sure I do. Already said so: Any faith alone barren of works is not the saving faith in Christ alone. I got that, and certainly agree.

That's because any faith alone barren of works is not the faith in Jesus Christ that always does good and pleases God:

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[ATG]

Believe what apart from repentance?

Believe in being justified with Jesus Christ, of course. We can't even believe Jesus, while doing evil.

Unless it's to believe we are condemned, except we repent:

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Mark 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel."
Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

For someone to say, I believe the gospel, but I never repented, is an oxymoron, and also for someone to say, I repented, but I don't believe the gospel is also an oxymoron.

True. We agree in the gospel of repentance with faith, not in any gospel of faith without repentance.

No transgressor can have the saving faith of Jesus Christ, except we repent.

 

[Dino246]

Certainly not if we're not doing righteousness after faith.

Only saints doing righteousness by Jesus' faith are justified with Him.

I shake my head.

 

[ATG]

That sure is a lot of work to try to convince yourself that water baptism is not the moment of the remission of sins.

Instead of all these verses that do not mention salvation by faith alone, would it not be quicker and more convincing to share a verse that actually states faith alone?

Didn't get it at first, but well done. Just wrongly applied. But by your context, it shows the practical problem of water baptism to be saved.

Water baptism is the first work we do as new converts, only when we first confess Jesus in the water to be baptized. Therefore, if we confess Jesus with our mouth, then we are not saved by faith alone when doing good to go to the water. Even if we are doing good to the ocean of water in a plain crash...

We know a teaching is false, when it's not practical under every condition.

Surely, you wouldn't preach any new believer not to confess Jesus, until getting to your special baptismal water place, right? This is where the cultishness of Acts 2:38 baptizers demand that new converts only be water baptized under their preaching and in their water at their time.

Do you have buckets of water handy to dunk on people, if they inadvertently blurt out Jesus Christ with praise for His salvation? You know, to make sure their first work of faith is baptism? So they can't say there were forgiven beforehand, nor by faith alone?

Your words are more akin to philosophy than theology.

Your words only say so.

Jesus Himself clearly stated that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Correct. And then that confess His name shall be saved.

I've already given the Scriptures that I teach water baptism from. If any part is in error, then show it. Other than just saying so, of course.

 

[ATG]

I shake my head.

I shale the dust from my feet.

 

[ATG]

Instead of simply stating such as "this is of course false", why not show a clear cut example of the remission of sins before water baptism.

Already have enough times.

 

[ATG]

You may want to read that verse again that you quoted.

It says salvation is BY grace THROUGH faith.

It does not say and no one could say "salvation is only by faith through faith".

Your works are the result of the grace of our lord and the Holy Spirit.

Any repentance you perform is not the reason for your salvation.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT given to those that believe.

Salvation belongs to Christ alone.

Inquisitor said:
The gospels do not even agree with one another in places.

I don't do any Scriptural disputes with unbelievers in any of the Scriptures of God. Except they repent. Then it's worthwhile to quote Scripture.

 

[Dino246]

I shale the dust from my feet.

That takes a lot of weight.

 

[ATG]

I believe Peter said the promise of Acts 2:38 was for all.

The promise of the Holy Ghost:

Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Not the command of water baptism.

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

[Inquisitor]

The promise of the Holy Ghost:

Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Not the command of water baptism.

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Corinthians 12:13​

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.