The Rejection of Obedience

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Yeah years ago on CC, I spent hours and hours with scripture to counter the "salvation is losable" crowd, but I realize now that it rarely is edifying because it really it is not about scripture.
God bless.
notice I always add proper scripture when I write posts, its important to do so, Jesus did say salvation van be lost look into the book of Life and why names can be taken out if it, I don't make this up its scripture, for this one ill let you find it it should be easy to find, the best way to know it is to search for it sometimes.
 
I believe what Jesus said, not merely in isolation, but in context. After the rich young ruler went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life, we read on in Matthew 19:23 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Don't be so fixed on salvation by obeying the 10 commandments that you miss the main point.

As I already explained, the rich young ruler confidently and self-righteously declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up, yet Jesus exposed his heart. Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation and demonstrated that he failed to keep even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37)

When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17) but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to his idol. The man walked away sorrowful (Matthew 19:22). Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping.

I'm glad to hear that you do not promote sinless perfection and those who do are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness, (1 John 1:8-10) which is the pinnacle of legalism.

Following what Jesus taught/keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Christ. This is about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk. How do you define--"KEEP" His commandments? You seem to take the words of Jesus, "If though wouldest enter life, keep the commandments," in a rigid literal way without considering the context and his audience, which culminates in salvation by law keeping/justification by the law. Under the new covenant, we are no longer under the law of Moses. The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10)
the rich young ruler you use right now is an excuse to negate what Jesus clearly said to keep the ten commandments, you just do not want to admit it. it is Jesus Not me who is fixed on his followers, believers, those who love him to Keep the Ten Commandments, we just need to try and do our best God is there for us if we ask for help its that simple. what is so difficult about them that people don't want to?

Also read post 300 just above it provides further clarification and answers some of your questions its fully referenced with proper verses in the proper context. If you need more clarifications I will provide.

Cheers.
 
Obedience has been rejected?
by OSAS crowd?:

I am personally in the Scripture group of "God's Eternal Salvation", According to
A Very Vast Multitude of Plain and Clear Scriptures, Under God's Grace, Today!: ie:


God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance

+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Thus, obedience has not been rejected by this group, because of obedience of
believing By "Grace Through Faith" and trusting In The Lord Jesus Christ, and
receiving The Eternal Merits Of His [ God's ]
Own All-Sufficient BLOOD Shed For
mankind.

So, Yes, we believe in obedience, and we have addressed the following related
question Several times in the past with not much interest in giving us a suitable
Scriptural answer to:

Which of the following should we obey?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?
+
Agreement With The Gospel?

We have humbly prayed about this, and we have just left it in
The Lord's Hands. Amen?

--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:


The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.
 
the rich young ruler you use right now is an excuse to negate what Jesus clearly said to keep the ten commandments, you just do not want to admit it.
Straw man argument. In regard to the rich young ruler, you are missing the big picture and seem to remain fixated on receiving eternal life based on commandment keeping. If that's the case, then you are leaning towards legalism.
it is Jesus Not me who is fixed on his followers, believers, those who love him to Keep the Ten Commandments, we just need to try and do our best God is there for us if we ask for help its that simple. what is so difficult about them that people don't want to?
It's not that Jesus' followers do not want to keep His commandments. That is not the issue here.

In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is descriptive of genuine believers. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is descriptive of unbelievers.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)
Also read post 300 just above it provides further clarification and answers some of your questions its fully referenced with proper verses in the proper context. If you need more clarifications I will provide.

Cheers.
Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?
 
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Do you not see or understand that the 614 apply to the Nation of Israel exclusively because they only make sense inside the Covenant Context? Gentile believers are not obligated to follow those rules because they are not a part of that covenant.
Exodus 12:38 points to a mixed multitude of people who were apart of the group that wandered in the wilderness. What did God say about them specifically? What was Gods order/instruction regarding gentiles that decided to follow HaShem during that time?
 
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What is your argument here? That covenantal laws apply even where no covenant exists. This makes no sense to me.
Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which is because people could do what is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no action that became in accordance with or contrary to God's character traits when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, it was a sin during it, it remains a sin when it has become obsolete, it will always be a sin no matter how many covenants are made or become obsolete, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. All of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same character traits, so the way to embody His character traits does not change between covenants, so a new covenant will never say anything that is not in accordance with God's previous covenants, though it can progressively reveal more information about how to embody God's character traits that was not previously revealed. If something were not in accordance with or contrary to God's eternal character traits, then God would have no reason to give commands in that regard.
 
This distinction is significant. The covenant written by God was placed inside the Ark as the enduring testimony of His covenant. The book written by Moses was placed beside the Ark as a witness against Israel because it contained the additional regulations that addressed their continued disobedience. @Soyeong
All of God's commands have the same moral authority regardless of whether He wrote them or spoke them and regardless of the medium upon which they are written or where they are placed. Do you deny that the greatest two commandments are part of the Mosaic Covenant?

The New Testament also explains why these additional laws existed.

“What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...” (Galatians 3:19, NKJV) @Soyeong
The Hebrew concept of "until" can mean "up until this point" without implying a change. Jesus did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because the Book of the Law has ended now that he ha come and we have been set free to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:15-23), which is in accordance with him coming to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32) and with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

The ceremonial laws, sacrificial system, Levitical priesthood, purification rituals, feast regulations, and other ordinances were added because of transgressions and pointed forward to the coming of Christ. Once Christ fulfilled their purpose, those shadows were no longer necessary. However, the Ten Commandments were never described as something merely added because of transgressions. They were already established as God's covenant before these additional laws were given.
The purpose of the Torah is to teach us how to know God by embodying His character traits (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23) and it will always have this purpose. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to making it no longer necessary. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as making it no longer necessary.

All of the Torah, including the Ten Commandments, points to Christ because he is the embodiment of it and we should live in a way that points to him by following his example of embodying it rather than a way that points away from him. Sin was in the world before the Torah was given (Romans 5:13), so all of the Torah was given because of transgressions. The only way that we should cease to follow the laws you listed would be if what they teach us about who Jesus is were to cease to be true. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, however, instead of concluding that celebrating Passover is no longer necessary, he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to celebrate it.

The prophets also declared that the coming Messiah would not be sent only to Israel but would become the Light for the Gentiles as well.

“I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles.” (Isaiah 42:6, NKJV)

“Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’” (Isaiah 49:6, NKJV)

Jesus fulfilled these prophecies when He declared: “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12, NKJV)

After His resurrection, Jesus commissioned His disciples to take His teachings to all nations, not merely to Israel.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...” (Matthew 28:19-20, NKJV)

What, then, did Jesus command concerning God's commandments?

When asked what was required to enter eternal life, Jesus gave a direct and unmistakable answer:

But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17, NKJV) These Ten Commandments are the Covenant

Jesus immediately quoted from the Ten Commandments, showing exactly which commandments He meant.

He also said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV)

And He pointed to His own example: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10, NKJV)
Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3), so he affirmed everything that God spoke to Moses (Deuteronomy 5:31-33) and did not limit it to just ten of the things that God spoke. Jesus is God's Word made flesh, he embodied what God spoke to Moses, not just the Ten Commandments, and the way to follow him is not by refusing to follow most of what God has spoken.

Jesus never taught that God's commandments had been abolished. Instead, He magnified them by teaching that true obedience begins in the heart, exactly as Jeremiah foretold. Anger becomes murder in the heart, lust becomes adultery in the heart, and love for God is demonstrated through willing obedience.
We are instructed not to hate our brother (Leviticus 19:17) and if we correctly understand the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our hearts, then we won't lust after a married woman in our hearts, so Jesus was not changing anything.

Therefore, the New Covenant is not the replacement of God's covenant with a new moral standard, nor is it merely a simplified ethic centered on love alone. The Bible consistently teaches that God's covenant is the Ten Commandments, written by His own finger, placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, and promised in Jeremiah to be written on the hearts of His people. The Law of Moses contained additional ordinances that were written by Moses, placed beside the Ark, and added because of transgressions until the Messiah came. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial system, but He never abolished the covenant that God Himself declared to be the Ten Commandments. As the promised Light to both Jews and Gentiles, Jesus instructed all nations to keep everything He commanded, and when asked how to enter into life, His answer was simple and clear: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” In this way, the teaching of Jesus perfectly agrees with the promise of Jeremiah that God would write His law upon the hearts of His people so that they would obey Him from within.
The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33), not just ten of God's commandments. Jesus also said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28), which are not listed as part of the Ten Commandments, and it is not the case that they are no longer necessary.
 
Exodus 12:38 points to a mixed multitude of people who were apart of the group that wandered in the wilderness. What did God say about them specifically? What was Gods order/instruction regarding gentiles that decided to follow HaShem during that time?
Likewise, in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born.
 
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Thank you. While Israel went through redemption cycles of turning away and back towards God, it is culminating in final redemption. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37), so there will always be a faithful remnant, which Gentiles are able to join through faith in Christ.

In Hebrews 8:7-9, the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His righteousness or with His instructions for how to embody His righteousness found in the Torah, but rather the fault that God found was with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem was not to do away with the Torah but to do away with what was hindering from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10).
Soyeong,
I think you will find Paul's analysis is that the Torah law could not every be kept.
The Apostle Paul's analysis emphasizes that the Old Law, or Mosaic Law, is insufficient for justification and cannot be fully kept by humans. Paul articulates this perspective primarily in his letters, particularly in Romans and Galatians. He argues that: The Inability to Justify: Paul states that no one can be justified by the works of the law, as indicated in Romans 3:20, where he notes that the law reveals sin rather than provides a means of salvation

Purpose of the Law: The law serves to highlight human sinfulness, acting as a mirror that reflects the need for grace. This suggests that the law's role is not to save but to point to the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation

Broader Interpretation: Paul uses the term "nomos" in a broader sense, indicating that the law encompasses more than just the Mosaic regulations, and he critiques the notion that it was ever intended to be fully kept

Freedom from the Law: He emphasizes that Christians are not bound by the old covenant, as they are children of the promise, not of the law. This reflects a shift from adherence to the law towards reliance on faith in Jesus Christ for righteousness
 
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Roger, there are multiple covenants in the OT, including one with the gentiles. The Mosaic covenant is not the only one, just one that Jews and Christians like to focus on.
Yes, I agree. But the core point is this: any serious discussion of obedience must begin with the exegetical question, “To whom did God command what?” That is the controlling category. Without it, conversations about obedience drift into vague moralism or into the assumption that every divine instruction is universally binding simply because God said it. That assumption is not exegetically defensible.

The concise takeaway is that every command in Scripture has an addressee, and responsible interpretation begins by identifying that addressee. A divine instruction given to Adam, Noah, Israel, the kings, the priests, the apostles, or the church is not automatically transferable to all people in all eras. The question of audience is part of the inspired meaning of the command itself. When we ignore that, we flatten Scripture and treat God’s words as if they were spoken into a vacuum rather than into specific covenantal relationships.

This is why the first exegetical question in any obedience discussion is covenantal audience rather than “Is this behavior good?” or “Does God still care about this?” The issue is not whether God’s moral character changes—He does not—but whether a particular command was given as part of a particular covenant administration.

More could be said.
 
your argument overlooks an important distinction that Scripture itself makes between God's Covenant, which is the Ten Commandments written by God's own finger, and the Law of Moses, which consists of the additional statutes, judgments, ceremonial laws, sacrifices, and priestly regulations written by Moses.

God Himself plainly identifies the Ten Commandments as His covenant.

“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)

Again, Scripture says: So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” (Exodus 34:28, NKJV)

These verses leave no room for doubt. God Himself calls the Ten Commandments His covenant. Therefore, when Jeremiah prophesied of the New Covenant, he was not introducing a different moral law or replacing God's commandments with a vague principle of love. He was describing the same covenant being written where it truly belongs, in the hearts of God's people.

“But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” (Jeremiah 31:33, NKJV)

Scripture also makes a clear distinction between what God wrote and what Moses wrote.
The Ten Commandments, written by God Himself, were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant.

“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.” (Deuteronomy 10:5, NKJV)

By contrast, the Book of the Law written by Moses was placed beside the Ark, not inside it.

“So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: ‘Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.’” (Deuteronomy 31:24-26, NKJV)

This distinction is significant. The covenant written by God was placed inside the Ark as the enduring testimony of His covenant. The book written by Moses was placed beside the Ark as a witness against Israel because it contained the additional regulations that addressed their continued disobedience. @Soyeong

The New Testament also explains why these additional laws existed.

“What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...” (Galatians 3:19, NKJV) @Soyeong

The ceremonial laws, sacrificial system, Levitical priesthood, purification rituals, feast regulations, and other ordinances were added because of transgressions and pointed forward to the coming of Christ. Once Christ fulfilled their purpose, those shadows were no longer necessary. However, the Ten Commandments were never described as something merely added because of transgressions. They were already established as God's covenant before these additional laws were given.

The prophets also declared that the coming Messiah would not be sent only to Israel but would become the Light for the Gentiles as well.

“I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles.” (Isaiah 42:6, NKJV)

“Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’” (Isaiah 49:6, NKJV)

Jesus fulfilled these prophecies when He declared: “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12, NKJV)

After His resurrection, Jesus commissioned His disciples to take His teachings to all nations, not merely to Israel.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...” (Matthew 28:19-20, NKJV)

What, then, did Jesus command concerning God's commandments?

When asked what was required to enter eternal life, Jesus gave a direct and unmistakable answer:

But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17, NKJV) These Ten Commandments are the Covenant

Jesus immediately quoted from the Ten Commandments, showing exactly which commandments He meant.

He also said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV)

And He pointed to His own example: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10, NKJV)

Jesus never taught that God's commandments had been abolished. Instead, He magnified them by teaching that true obedience begins in the heart, exactly as Jeremiah foretold. Anger becomes murder in the heart, lust becomes adultery in the heart, and love for God is demonstrated through willing obedience.

Therefore, the New Covenant is not the replacement of God's covenant with a new moral standard, nor is it merely a simplified ethic centered on love alone. The Bible consistently teaches that God's covenant is the Ten Commandments, written by His own finger, placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, and promised in Jeremiah to be written on the hearts of His people. The Law of Moses contained additional ordinances that were written by Moses, placed beside the Ark, and added because of transgressions until the Messiah came. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial system, but He never abolished the covenant that God Himself declared to be the Ten Commandments. As the promised Light to both Jews and Gentiles, Jesus instructed all nations to keep everything He commanded, and when asked how to enter into life, His answer was simple and clear: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” In this way, the teaching of Jesus perfectly agrees with the promise of Jeremiah that God would write His law upon the hearts of His people so that they would obey Him from within.
I made very similar points in other contexts. But I disagree with your interpretation of Matthew 19. In that context, Jesus is talking to a Jewish man about a covenant that he made with Israel. I generally agree with what you said about the Ten Commandments, but I would say that the Law of Moses was also part of the Mt. Sinai Covenant.

Jesus did not teach Gentiles to keep the Ten Commandments, because Gentiles were not the covenantal audience of the Mosaic Law. Likewise, Jesus did not instruct His apostles to teach the Jewish people to keep the Ten Commandments; He spoke to Jews who were already living under Torah and already obligated to it. There was no need for Him to command what they were already commanded. And Paul never taught the Christian churches—Jew and Gentile together—to keep the Ten Commandments as a covenantal code. His argument is consistent: believers are justified and sanctified apart from the Law, and the Mosaic commandments do not function as the governing covenant for the church.
 
Exodus 12:38 points to a mixed multitude of people who were apart of the group that wandered in the wilderness. What did God say about them specifically? What was Gods order/instruction regarding gentiles that decided to follow HaShem during that time?
This is an interesting subject with nuances that warrant discussion.

“HaShem” as you may already know is simply the reverent Jewish way of referring to Yahweh—literally “the Name”—used to avoid pronouncing the divine name. In the Exodus narrative, the “mixed multitude” (Exod 12:38) refers to non‑Israelites who left Egypt with Israel and attached themselves to Israel’s God. God’s will for such foreigners was clear: if they wished to live among Israel and worship Yahweh, they were to be treated as full participants in Israel’s covenant life, provided they embraced Israel’s covenantal obligations. Exodus 12:48–49 states that a foreigner who wanted to keep the Passover had to be circumcised, and once circumcised, “he shall be as a native of the land.” The same passage adds, “There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” In other words, Gentiles who joined Israel were not second‑class followers of God; they were welcomed, but they were welcomed into Israel’s covenant, not alongside it. Their loyalty to Yahweh meant entering the covenantal structure God had given to Israel, and within that structure they were treated as Israelites in both privilege and responsibility.

Ruth and Naomi provide a vivid example of how a foreigner could enter Israel’s covenantal life. Ruth was a Moabite, not an Israelite, yet when she attached herself to Naomi she declared her loyalty not only to Naomi’s family but to Yahweh and to Israel’s covenant community: “Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.” In doing so, she embraced the same covenantal obligations that bound Israel, just as Exodus 12 requires of any foreigner who wishes to live among God’s people. Ruth was not treated as a partial or secondary follower of God; she was welcomed fully into Israel’s story because she willingly entered Israel’s covenant. Her inclusion shows that God’s will for foreigners was never exclusion but covenantal assimilation—a wholehearted joining of themselves to Yahweh and to the people who bore His name. Ruth’s life demonstrates that Gentile inclusion in the Old Testament was real, but it was inclusion into Israel’s covenant, not alongside it.

And Ruth was an ancestor of Jesus.
 
I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?
Vast majority of people won't obey because of fear of men=against the majority, giving up everything=your heart is not into the world, they have to give up the cares of the world, they love this life when your suppose to hate this life, blindly trust in God to overcome the trails, reject the temporary pleasures of sin and more.
 
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Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which is because people could do what is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no action that became in accordance with or contrary to God's character traits when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, it was a sin during it, it remains a sin when it has become obsolete, it will always be a sin no matter how many covenants are made or become obsolete, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. All of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same character traits, so the way to embody His character traits does not change between covenants, so a new covenant will never say anything that is not in accordance with God's previous covenants, though it can progressively reveal more information about how to embody God's character traits that was not previously revealed. If something were not in accordance with or contrary to God's eternal character traits, then God would have no reason to give commands in that regard.
The argument assumes that because God’s character is eternal, every command He ever gives must express an eternal moral truth. But that is not how Scripture treats commands. Many divine commands are covenantal obligations, not eternal moral principles. The flaw is simple: it treats all divine instructions as moral revelations, even though Scripture itself distinguishes between moral realities and covenant‑specific requirements.

The argument treats Romans 5:13 (“sin was in the world before the law was given”) as if Paul were saying, “All moral norms existed eternally and the Law merely revealed them.” But that is not Paul’s point. Paul is explaining the reign of death and Adam’s transgression—not the continuity of moral norms across covenants. Romans 5 is about how sin and death entered the world through Adam, not about the content or universality of moral commands.
 
Soyeong,
I think you will find Paul's analysis is that the Torah law could not every be kept.
In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

The Apostle Paul's analysis emphasizes that the Old Law, or Mosaic Law, is insufficient for justification and cannot be fully kept by humans.
All of God's righteous laws were eternal (Psalm 119:160), so they can't become old.

We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah (Romans 4:1-5), so the reason why we can't earn our righteousness is not because we fall short of fully keeping it but because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Torah and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Torah and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. What it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7), so the Torah is what we get to experience being a doer of by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

Paul articulates this perspective primarily in his letters, particularly in Romans and Galatians. He argues that: The Inability to Justify: Paul states that no one can be justified by the works of the law, as indicated in Romans 3:20, where he notes that the law reveals sin rather than provides a means of salvation
The fact that we can't earn our righteousness as the result of obeying the Torah makes it that much more true that we can't earn our righteousness as the result of obeying "works of the law", which is what Paul was focused on in Galatians. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, he said that that our faith upholds the Torah in contrast with saying in Galatians 3:10-12 that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Torah, which is why it is not of faith, unlike the Torah. If you agree that the Torah gives us knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey it.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so while the Torah was never given as a way of earning our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Purpose of the Law: The law serves to highlight human sinfulness, acting as a mirror that reflects the need for grace. This suggests that the law's role is not to save but to point to the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the purpose of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result.

Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits and sin is the transgression of the Torah because it was graciously given in order to teach us how to know God through embody His character traits. Jesus saves us from our sin, so him graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. The Bible frequently connects our belief in Him with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so the purpose of God's Word is to teach us how to believe in God's Word made flesh and having faith in Jesus for salvation is in accordance with God's Word, not in contrast with it.

Broader Interpretation: Paul uses the term "nomos" in a broader sense, indicating that the law encompasses more than just the Mosaic regulations, and he critiques the notion that it was ever intended to be fully kept
I disagree.

Freedom from the Law: He emphasizes that Christians are not bound by the old covenant, as they are children of the promise, not of the law. This reflects a shift from adherence to the law towards reliance on faith in Jesus Christ for righteousness
In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe the freedom that we have in Christ is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject the freedom that we have in Christ would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to free us from. In other word the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin. In Psalm 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Torah that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

The promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of His household to do that, and because they did that (Genesis 18:19 Genesis 25:4-5, Deuteronomy 30:16). It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions.
 
While I disagree with some nuances, I'm not going to get into it because again, I don't want this to devolve into just another salvation debate. But I do agree with you that everyone (as I said in the OP) who is following Christ, should be obedient. But for some reason, any mention of obedience, people just devolve into a salvation debate and it's like their argument is against obedience in general. My dad is actually a great example of this. His quote is, "Jesus died so you can just go live your life." And he's not the only one I've heard this from as over the years its been hundreds of people. And the majority of the time, it's these people who have the worst attitudes.
So it's like they believe John 3:16, they continue live their old life of continually sinning, no mention of confess and repent of sins, no proof of a change in their life and more.
 
what is the difference Mem? a change of the contents of the Covenant or rather disobedience VS. obedience through the Holy Spirit
It's been taught that Jesus was implying that the rich young ruler having disobeyed the 1st commandment when he told him to sell all that He had and follow Him, like Jesus was defining the first commandment more succinctly or something. So then, have the rest of us failed to keep that first commandment if we also do not do exactly that? The difference is the difference in stone and flesh. And flesh is made up of, what, 98% water isn't it? So, writing on the heart would be somewhat like writing on a pool of water however more tactile, so that you would continually be writing on it rather than copy from the stone and pasting on the heart.
 
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The New Covenant not being like the Mosaic Covenant does not mean that they have nothing in common, but rather it just means that they are the stated differences. For example, the greatest two commandments are part of both covenants and the reason why the commandments to love God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments is that they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so following the Torah is not a difference, but God internalizing it putting it in our minds and writing it on our hearts is a difference.

God's character traits are eternal, so everything that God's covenants teach us about how to know God through embodying His character traits is eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are also eternal (Psalm 119:160), and if the way to embody God's righteousness were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal.

New covenants do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are eternally and cumulatively valid. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be made obsolete by the New Covenant is if it is cumulative with it. One thing can only make another thing obsolete to the extent that it has cumulative functionality, so a computer makes a typewrite obsolete but does not make a plow obsolete, which means that if the New Covenant involved doing something different that was not cumulative with the Mosaic Covenant, then it could not make it obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is cumulatively based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The position that the New Covenant involves following a different set of laws is the position that it is made with a different God with a different set of character traits and a different set of laws for how to embody those character traits, but rather the New Covenant is made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and the same eternally and cumulatively valid instructions for how to embody His character traits.
You've convinced only yourself that the new covenant is the old covenant, and that you are empowered to 'imitate' God's character by observing Moses' law. Something that Paul claimed gives sin its power (1Cor 15:56) and provides opportunity for sin and without which "sin is dead (Ro 7:8)." You keep looking at Moses' law, while I will keep my eyes on Christ.
 
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It's been taught that Jesus was implying that the rich young ruler having disobeyed the 1st commandment when he told him to sell all that He had and follow Him, like Jesus was defining the first commandment more succinctly or something. So then, have the rest of us failed to keep that first commandment if we also do not do exactly that? The difference is the difference in stone and flesh. And flesh is made up of, what, 98% water isn't it? So, writing on the heart would be somewhat like writing on a pool of water however more tactile, so that you would continually be writing on it rather than copy from the stone and pasting on the heart.
Family can be idols too. There comes a time when you have to make a decision between choosing unrepentant family and God.
 
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Family can be idols too. There comes a time when you have to make a decision between choosing unrepentant family and God.
I do wonder why the rich young ruler went away from Jesus sad, with exact knowledge of the source of that sadness in his heart. I mean, I would think that if he chose his riches, then he'd go away happy that he still had them.