The Rejection of Obedience

[Delvianna]

So why cant some people not obey and keep the commandments?

It seems like when something becomes optional, it's just not done at all. While I think some people have an aversion to it because they think if they start following it, they'll fall into the false doctrine idea that you're in works which means you won't be saved. So it's like, they have to actually not do it in order to be saved. A completely dysfunctional rationality.

 

[PennEd]

What you don't mention in your post is the power of the Holy Spirit at work in a submitted Christian's life. He is God's solution to make it easy for us to follow Him. Why would you leave that out?

"Hopefully?" It is a SURE THING that a Christian will transform into the likeness of Christ more and more as they continue to submit and abide in the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t “ leave it out “.
Of course it’s the Holy Spirit that works in us to transform us into the likeness of Christ. Kinda disgusting really that you would intimate that I said or believed otherwise.

Boy, you sure like to assign motives to me that are non existent!

Also noticed you kept mum on whether or not you still sin.

Please don’t tell me you’re a sinless perfectionist heretic?

 

[PennEd]

lets put it on the table

if I am saved. can I lose that salvation?

No. You can’t. JESUS is the One that keeps you saved.

These guys wanna help Jesus do what He said He has already done.


Some of them may be able to lose it, but only because they don’t know the One who gave it.

 

[PennEd]

100% absolutely and His word is a living, breathing book. We are watching it all play out. I'm never certain what He does and what He let's happen, but it's ALL in His book. I need to get back to finding a place to 'gather' no matter how I feel. Thanks

God bless

Isaiah 34​

16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

I like your signature! Important prophecy for sure.

 

[dkontner]

I like your signature! Important prophecy for sure.

Thank you. I was baptized in water in 1970. In 2015, Jesus baptized me. I freaked out and I had questions. My signature is where He led me and it explained a lot. He put me flat on my back and I found myself in His word. The Lord has been busy these 2000 years.

God bless you and your family.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So then you reject what Christ said.

No I agree with what Christ said, He did not contradict what he said in the earlier passages?

john 1: 12. but as many as have received him, to them he gave the right to become children, even to them who believe

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”

john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 35 and Jesus said to them, “i am the bread of life. he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

john 6: 47 most assuredly, i say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. 48 i am the bread of life. 49 your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 this is the bread which comes down from heaven, that that one may eat of it and not die 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. if anyone eats this bread he will live forever

John 6: 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Are you saying Jesus did not mean all these things (in blue) whoever comes to him in faith will believe?

Then there's nothing more that needs to be said if you want to reject His own words

I am not rejecting his words. I am interpreting his words.

By your defenition, You are rejecting jesus words in John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, and John 6 and many other places.

please walk your attitude back.. Lets discuss this.

in Mark 1:15. You cannot get to heaven without repentance which is a complete change of mind which is proved by endurance. If you want to reject what Christ said, that's entirely up to you. Good luck, you're going to need it.

God is omniscient, He is omnipotent, he is omnipresent.

God does not need me to prove my faith. he knows if I have living faith the time he declaires I am saved and have eternal life.

We will not have saving faith unless we repent.

but once we are saved, and given all the things he promised.. I am saved forever.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You invent things i never said and twist my words and add to them. You use old twisted doctrine of men that I never spoke about, you just wont listen to what Christ said because you dont want to obey the commandments.

Your now twisting my words.

I interpreted what you said, as a gospel of works.

You created a false dichotamy that I hate Gods commands. I actually love them.. when I obey I am blessed, when I fall I am punished and chastened..

A child of God can not live in sin.. so to even say one is saved and can live in sin is to fail to understand the word of God.

I always speak about the Ten COmmandments and not the rest of the law of Moses. The commandments do not require perfection,

sorry sir you are wrong

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
This includes the ten commands
Galatians 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”​

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

that is another invention of Men, God knows we stumble and He forgives us but we must at least try and persevere. what is wrong with obedience if its for everyone's good? all the commandments are good and not a burden, it is men who make them so. every time you stop at a red light or at a stop sign you obey mens laws because its the right thing to do. So why cant some people not obey and keep the commandments?

Nothing is wrong with obedience.

Unless I think God will save me based on my obedience.

if I believe this, I am under law not under grace

As for obeying the commandments you do it from the heart and not with outward observable obedience like the Pharisees did to be seem of all men. see MAtthew chapter 23 Jesus explains it all.

If you want to obey the commands, obey the 2 greatest of commands, Jesus said in these 2 are all the law and prophets.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It seems like when something becomes optional, it's just not done at all. While I think some people have an aversion to it because they think if they start following it, they'll fall into the false doctrine idea that you're in works which means you won't be saved. So it's like, they have to actually not do it in order to be saved. A completely dysfunctional rationality.

1 John 3:

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

it seems far to many people do not understand what happens when we are saved..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No. You can’t. JESUS is the One that keeps you saved.

These guys wanna help Jesus do what He said He has already done.


Some of them may be able to lose it, but only because they don’t know the One who gave it.

but this means they never had it. not that they lost it

 

[Delvianna]

No I agree with what Christ said, He did not contradict what he said in the earlier passages?

john 1: 12. but as many as have received him, to them he gave the right to become children, even to them who believe

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”

john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 35 and Jesus said to them, “i am the bread of life. he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

john 6: 47 most assuredly, i say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. 48 i am the bread of life. 49 your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 this is the bread which comes down from heaven, that that one may eat of it and not die 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. if anyone eats this bread he will live forever

John 6: 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Are you saying Jesus did not mean all these things (in blue) whoever comes to him in faith will believe?


I am not rejecting his words. I am interpreting his words.

By your defenition, You are rejecting jesus words in John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, and John 6 and many other places.

please walk your attitude back.. Lets discuss this.

God is omniscient, He is omnipotent, he is omnipresent.

God does not need me to prove my faith. he knows if I have living faith the time he declaires I am saved and have eternal life.

We will not have saving faith unless we repent.

but once we are saved, and given all the things he promised.. I am saved forever.

Again, nothing to discuss. Active faith requires repentance which by definition includes obedience. The fact you reject this and call it a works based doctrine while still using the same language that you reject is all that needs to be said. You twist word definitions to suit your own means and point to scripture verses out of context to back up your twisted definitions which requires you to reject that Jesus called for repentance. So it's a circular loop and one I'm stepping out of. You cannot be saved without repentance which by definition includes obedience. So you can use the word "repentance", but your definition of that word is not the actual definition since you reject obedience.

 

[Delvianna]

1 John 3:

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

it seems far to many people do not understand what happens when we are saved..

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. - James 2:18

 

[PennEd]

but this means they never had it. not that they lost it

I know, but in THEIR mind they’ll think they had it and lost it.

You ever here em talk about this one and that one that were supposedly strong Christians and are now atheist or Muslim or whatever?

That’s their big proof.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Again, nothing to discuss. Active faith requires repentance which by definition includes obedience.

I agree 100 %

one will not have active faith opr any faith at all unless they repent

Obedience is not required. it is a byproduct.

sayin git is required puts the onos of salvation on yourself. Not God.

The fact you reject this and call it a works based doctrine while still using the same language that you reject is all that needs to be said.

The fact you are replacing faith and grace with works. is all anyone needs to know

You twist word definitions to suit your own means and point to scripture verses out of context to back up your twisted definitions which requires you to reject that Jesus called for repentance. So it's a circular loop and one I'm stepping out of. You cannot be saved without repentance which by definition includes obedience. So you can use the word "repentance", but your definition of that word is not the actual definition since you reject obedience.

I reject obedience as a means of salvation.

I do not reject obedience.

your a typical legalisti who does not know how to converse with anyone. all you do is attack a person who disagrees with you and make false claims against them.

Keep it up everyone here knows now that you believe you must earn salvation, or you will lose it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. - James 2:18

If I can not sin.. that means I am doing good works

to know to do good and not do it. it is called sin.

James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

so if I am not practicing righteousness, Because I am not doing good.. then I have not been saved.

this is what James is talkin gabout.

Abraham did not get saved when he offered his son in Gen 20

he was saved when he believed God in gen 15.. before his son was even born

 

[2Christ]

It seems like when something becomes optional, it's just not done at all. While I think some people have an aversion to it because they think if they start following it, they'll fall into the false doctrine idea that you're in works which means you won't be saved. So it's like, they have to actually not do it in order to be saved. A completely dysfunctional rationality.

the worst thing is this Christ was very clear ; to have eternal life we keep the commandments. many imagine obedience is wrong same as doing good actions that they call works of the law, oh well they have been deceived and don't want to change. Jesus was clear also when is said many are called but few will make it I guess they forgot that also.

Many are on the broad road to destruction (Matthew 7:13-14).
Many who call Him "Lord" will not enter the Kingdom (Matthew 7:21-23).
Many are called, but only few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
Some who think they are ready will find the door shut (Matthew 25:10-12; Luke 13:24-28).

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I know, but in THEIR mind they’ll think they had it and lost it.

You ever here em talk about this one and that one that were supposedly strong Christians and are now atheist or Muslim or whatever?

That’s their big proof.

its proof to me that John was correct in his epistle

1 john 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
now they will say this is an antichrist. not someone who now does nto believe
but by defenition a non believer, a muslim and or a athiest deny's christ.
again we turn to John
1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

so those people were never saved, they did not lose salvation

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

the worst thing is this Christ was very clear ; to have eternal life we keep the commandments.

No.

Jesus is clear.

those who have eternal life keep the commands.

many imagine obedience is wrong same as doing good actions that they call works of the law, oh well they have been deceived and don't want to change. Jesus was clear also when is said many are called but few will make it I guess they forgot that also.

Many are on the broad road to destruction (Matthew 7:13-14).
Many who call Him "Lord" will not enter the Kingdom (Matthew 7:21-23).
Many are called, but only few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
Some who think they are ready will find the door shut (Matthew 25:10-12; Luke 13:24-28).

Obedience is not wrong. unless your being obedient in order to gain eternal life or stay saved.

Your not obedient out of gratitude. or loveing God. Your obedient to save your own hide.

 

[2Christ]

No.

Jesus is clear.

those who have eternal life keep the commands.



Obedience is not wrong. unless your being obedient in order to gain eternal life or stay saved.

Your not obedient out of gratitude. or loveing God. Your obedient to save your own hide.

when is eternal life granted and by Who?, please use scripture

 

[dkontner]

I was sealed the second He granted me repentance. I was there. Ye must be born again

Matthew 3​

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ephesians 1​

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Delvianna]

I agree 100 %

one will not have active faith opr any faith at all unless they repent

Obedience is not required. it is a byproduct.

sayin git is required puts the onos of salvation on yourself. Not God.

The fact you are replacing faith and grace with works. is all anyone needs to know



I reject obedience as a means of salvation.

I do not reject obedience.

your a typical legalisti who does not know how to converse with anyone. all you do is attack a person who disagrees with you and make false claims against them.

Keep it up everyone here knows now that you believe you must earn salvation, or you will lose it.

You don't seem to understand this concept:

Repentance --->> put into the definition of the word includes obedience.
So if repentance is required, and repentance includes obedience inside the definition itself, ergo obedience is required.

To say obedience is not required, is breaking down the definition of repentance and rejecting part of that definition.

Either accept the word or don't, there is no in-between.