Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Churchgoer]

“Moses can not be the mediator, Moses blood basically useless for us.”

moses didn’t shed his blood he mediated the covenant by shedding the blood of the beasts God instructed him to sacrifice lambs goats bulls ox ect even doves and things at times in thier covenant law which most assuredly Moses mediated and established with animal blood

Have you ever read the Books of Moses ? The first five books of the Bible ? It’s really foundational understanding for the things that follow after

moses was born at a time israel was being oppressed by a powerful kingdom when babes were being killed . He was delivered and saved into an Egyptian family for a time . Later he was chosen alone by god to take his words to the israelites to lead them to deliverance by gods power out of slavery . He later did miracles of plenty by gods power and command and they were delivered.

He later was chosen by the people to mediate the words of god between tbey and god because they fear god exceedingly after he appears upon the Mount in power and thunder and lightnings and quakes so exceedingly frightful that even Moses shook and trembled and god says this is a good plan and accepts it having himself chosen Moses as the mediator .

And so the people all remain at the foot of the Mount and Moses the mediator of the covenant approaches the glory of God upon Mount Sinai where he’s come down and called Moses the man of god to come up and receive the covenant for the people . He spent fourty days and nights fasting , with god alone on the Mount receiving thier covenant word. He then returns later after much trouble for false idol worship and commands the preists to slaughter all the people at random fornthier idolatry while he was receiving the law . Then later he returns and pleads with god for thier lives interceeding he says “ lord of you won’t have these people then also cast away me from you “ and god repents and accepts Moses intercession for Israel.


He then goes on to lead them even as they rebell and complain against him rejecting much all the while Moses alone approaches god and then after takes gods words to the people like this

This is what happened the people heard and saw gods presence on the Mount and feared

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.

…. Go thou near, ( they’re talking to moses) and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.

But as for thee, ( god speaking to Moses ) stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25, 27-28, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s really plain who the mediator to israel in the old covenant was there’s the whole story to be found from genesis through the first five books of the Bible .

Oh, this i agree.

I was thinking "mediator" as savior. I was wrong .

 

[cv5]

Sneaky. However, I can assist the board by decoding your reply.

What you are REALLY saying is twofold:
1) you reject the millennial earthly reign of Christ.
2) you reject the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel

Yes, it is exceedingly difficult to obtain a straight answer from the amils and hard core Reformed RT's.

Edit: straight answer from the amils and hard core Reformed RT's and especially the CT's.

 

[cv5]

And she also represents Sodom.
But she IS Jerusalem, "where also our Lord was crucified".

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum addresses Revelation 11:8 directly within his expositional framework (The Footsteps of the Messiah), explicitly distinguishing between the symbolic naming of Jerusalem in Revelation 11 and the literal geopolitical system of Babylon in Revelation 17–18.

1. The Context of Revelation 11:8: Jerusalem, Not Babylon
Fruchtenbaum notes that Revelation 11:8 identifies its location via a clear, unambiguous geographical anchor: "where also our Lord was crucified."
Because Jesus was historically crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem, the geographic subject of Revelation 11:8 is unequivocally Jerusalem.
When the text states that this city is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," Fruchtenbaum emphasizes the qualifying adverb "spiritually" (pneumatikōs):
* Sodom represents moral corruption and perversion.
* Egypt represents bondage, idolatry, and anti-God worldliness.

Thus, in Revelation 11:8, John is using metaphorical nomenclature to describe the moral and spiritual degradation of Jerusalem during the second half of the Tribulation, when the Antichrist desecrates the Second Temple (or Tribulation Temple) and the city becomes a center of apostasy. It is metaphorically Sodom and Egypt, but literally Jerusalem.

2. The Identity of Babylon in Revelation 17–18: Literal City, Not Jerusalem
A core pillar of Fruchtenbaum's dispensational hermeneutic is literal interpretation unless the text explicitly demands otherwise. He argues against allegory when geographic place names are used without spiritualizing qualifiers.
While some allegorical frameworks identify Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17–18 as Jerusalem (or Rome), Fruchtenbaum rejects this view for several key structural reasons:
A. Distinct Textual Indicators
* In Revelation 11:8, the text explicitly adds the qualifier "spiritually called" to indicate a metaphorical title (Sodom/Egypt) assigned to a known city (Jerusalem).
* In Revelation 17:5, the title is written on the harlot’s forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT..." Fruchtenbaum asserts that "Mystery" modifies the name: it signifies a spiritual truth now revealed regarding the historical system of religious apostasy, while the city itself remains the literal, historical site of Babylon on the Euphrates (in modern-day Iraq).
B. The Dual Nature of Babylon (Religious vs. Commercial)
Fruchtenbaum divides the judgment of Babylon into two distinct phases across chapters 17 and 18:
* Revelation 17 (Ecclesiastical/Religious Babylon): The false world religious system that dominates the first half of the Tribulation, which is eventually destroyed by the Ten Kings and the Antichrist (Rev 17:16).
* Revelation 18 (Political/Commercial Babylon): The literal rebuilt city of Babylon on the Euphrates, functioning as the economic and political capital of the Antichrist’s empire in the second half of the Tribulation, which is destroyed directly by God at the end of the age.

C. Divergent Old Testament Prophetic Fulfillments
Fruchtenbaum points to unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies regarding the destruction of literal Babylon (such as Isaiah 13–14 and Jeremiah 50–51). Prophecy demands that Babylon be suddenly destroyed, never to be inhabited again. Historically, ancient Babylon decayed slowly over centuries rather than suffering catastrophic, instantaneous destruction by fire as described in Jeremiah 51:26 and Revelation 18. Jerusalem, conversely, is never destined for perpetual desolation; scripture establishes that Jerusalem will be redeemed and serve as the capital of the Messianic Kingdom.

 

[WayneNSO]

Sneaky. However, I can assist the board by decoding your reply.

What you are REALLY saying is twofold:
1) you reject the millennial earthly reign of Christ.
2) you reject the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel

Yes, it is exceedingly difficult to obtain a straight answer from the amils and hard core Reformed RT's.

Nope - I have not made my mind up about the millennial reign and I believe the rulers of the Kingdom will be the tribes of Israel

and wrong about me being amil or RT

RTS do not believe in an earthly reign, at least the ones ive met, they considered me a heretic for saying the Kingdom will be on Earth.

 

[OMC]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum addresses Revelation 11:8 directly within his expositional framework (The Footsteps of the Messiah), explicitly distinguishing between the symbolic naming of Jerusalem in Revelation 11 and the literal geopolitical system of Babylon in Revelation 17–18.

1. The Context of Revelation 11:8: Jerusalem, Not Babylon
Fruchtenbaum notes that Revelation 11:8 identifies its location via a clear, unambiguous geographical anchor: "where also our Lord was crucified."
Because Jesus was historically crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem, the geographic subject of Revelation 11:8 is unequivocally Jerusalem.
When the text states that this city is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," Fruchtenbaum emphasizes the qualifying adverb "spiritually" (pneumatikōs):
* Sodom represents moral corruption and perversion.
* Egypt represents bondage, idolatry, and anti-God worldliness.

Thus, in Revelation 11:8, John is using metaphorical nomenclature to describe the moral and spiritual degradation of Jerusalem during the second half of the Tribulation, when the Antichrist desecrates the Second Temple (or Tribulation Temple) and the city becomes a center of apostasy. It is metaphorically Sodom and Egypt, but literally Jerusalem.

2. The Identity of Babylon in Revelation 17–18: Literal City, Not Jerusalem
A core pillar of Fruchtenbaum's dispensational hermeneutic is literal interpretation unless the text explicitly demands otherwise. He argues against allegory when geographic place names are used without spiritualizing qualifiers.
While some allegorical frameworks identify Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17–18 as Jerusalem (or Rome), Fruchtenbaum rejects this view for several key structural reasons:
A. Distinct Textual Indicators
* In Revelation 11:8, the text explicitly adds the qualifier "spiritually called" to indicate a metaphorical title (Sodom/Egypt) assigned to a known city (Jerusalem).
* In Revelation 17:5, the title is written on the harlot’s forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT..." Fruchtenbaum asserts that "Mystery" modifies the name: it signifies a spiritual truth now revealed regarding the historical system of religious apostasy, while the city itself remains the literal, historical site of Babylon on the Euphrates (in modern-day Iraq).
B. The Dual Nature of Babylon (Religious vs. Commercial)
Fruchtenbaum divides the judgment of Babylon into two distinct phases across chapters 17 and 18:
* Revelation 17 (Ecclesiastical/Religious Babylon): The false world religious system that dominates the first half of the Tribulation, which is eventually destroyed by the Ten Kings and the Antichrist (Rev 17:16).
* Revelation 18 (Political/Commercial Babylon): The literal rebuilt city of Babylon on the Euphrates, functioning as the economic and political capital of the Antichrist’s empire in the second half of the Tribulation, which is destroyed directly by God at the end of the age.

C. Divergent Old Testament Prophetic Fulfillments
Fruchtenbaum points to unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies regarding the destruction of literal Babylon (such as Isaiah 13–14 and Jeremiah 50–51). Prophecy demands that Babylon be suddenly destroyed, never to be inhabited again. Historically, ancient Babylon decayed slowly over centuries rather than suffering catastrophic, instantaneous destruction by fire as described in Jeremiah 51:26 and Revelation 18. Jerusalem, conversely, is never destined for perpetual desolation; scripture establishes that Jerusalem will be redeemed and serve as the capital of the Messianic Kingdom.

Fruchtenbaum’s entire distinction collapses the moment you hold him to the text itself, because Revelation never gives you two cities — it gives you one covenant city under two modes of judgment — and his system only works if you treat “spiritually” in 11:8 as a hermeneutical escape hatch rather than letting John’s own usage govern the referent.

Revelation 11:8 already fixes the identity:
the great city is Jerusalem, the place “where their Lord was crucified,” and John’s “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt” is not a signal that the referent has changed but that the condition of the same city has changed;
the adverb pneumatikōs modifies the metaphor, not the geography.

Once John anchors the referent, he never releases it: the same “great city” later becomes the harlot (Rev 17), the city guilty of “the blood of prophets and saints” (Rev 18:24), and Jesus Himself identifies Jerusalem as the city that kills the prophets (Matt 23:37).

Fruchtenbaum’s attempt to relocate Babylon to Iraq requires ignoring that Revelation never uses “Babylon” with a geographical qualifier the way it does in 11:8 — meaning the only time John needs to clarify geography, he does so explicitly, and the rest of the book relies on the established referent.
His split between religious Babylon (Rev 17) and commercial Babylon (Rev 18) is a system‑driven distinction, not a textual one: Revelation treats the harlot and the city as the same entity under escalating judgment, not two different cities with two different destructions.
And his appeal to OT prophecies about Babylon’s final fall ignores that Revelation applies those very prophecies to the city guilty of covenant blood (Rev 18:24), which the OT repeatedly says is Jerusalem (Isa 1:21; Jer 2–3; Ezek 16; Ezek 23).
So the text keeps the referent stable, the prophetic pattern keeps the referent stable, and the covenant‑blood criterion keeps the referent stable — meaning Revelation’s Babylon is Jerusalem under judgment, not a rebuilt Mesopotamian metropolis.

 

[Churchgoer]

Fruchtenbaum’s entire distinction collapses the moment you hold him to the text itself, because Revelation never gives you two cities — it gives you one covenant city under two modes of judgment — and his system only works if you treat “spiritually” in 11:8 as a hermeneutical escape hatch rather than letting John’s own usage govern the referent.

Revelation 11:8 already fixes the identity:
the great city is Jerusalem, the place “where their Lord was crucified,” and John’s “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt” is not a signal that the referent has changed but that the condition of the same city has changed;
the adverb pneumatikōs modifies the metaphor, not the geography.

Once John anchors the referent, he never releases it: the same “great city” later becomes the harlot (Rev 17), the city guilty of “the blood of prophets and saints” (Rev 18:24), and Jesus Himself identifies Jerusalem as the city that kills the prophets (Matt 23:37).

Fruchtenbaum’s attempt to relocate Babylon to Iraq requires ignoring that Revelation never uses “Babylon” with a geographical qualifier the way it does in 11:8 — meaning the only time John needs to clarify geography, he does so explicitly, and the rest of the book relies on the established referent.
His split between religious Babylon (Rev 17) and commercial Babylon (Rev 18) is a system‑driven distinction, not a textual one: Revelation treats the harlot and the city as the same entity under escalating judgment, not two different cities with two different destructions.
And his appeal to OT prophecies about Babylon’s final fall ignores that Revelation applies those very prophecies to the city guilty of covenant blood (Rev 18:24), which the OT repeatedly says is Jerusalem (Isa 1:21; Jer 2–3; Ezek 16; Ezek 23).
So the text keeps the referent stable, the prophetic pattern keeps the referent stable, and the covenant‑blood criterion keeps the referent stable — meaning Revelation’s Babylon is Jerusalem under judgment, not a rebuilt Mesopotamian metropolis.

Based on current day political demographic, seems matching.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh, this i agree.

I was thinking "mediator" as savior. I was wrong

Jesus is definetely the savior of Israels preserved and everyone else we agree!

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:

I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


See this isnt a covenant being made yet but a promise for future hope and a new better thing through a messiahs eternal kingdom that shall come later from the prophets perspective

“The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

…For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:2, 6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Later the son arrives when the appointed time

They knew God/Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ot
“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;”

Nt
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I never said any of that. You can play like I did though if it makes you feel better



Yes and Jesus said He came to do God's will and take the old covenant away in order to establish the New Covenant.
Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8:6 - But now hath Jesus obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

“Yes and Jesus said He came to do God's will and take the old covenant away in order to establish the New Covenant.”

naw he said he came to fulfil it …and also preach the gospel to israel.


“Are you suggesting Christians should try to walk in the old covenant along with the New Covenant and ignore what Jesus said in Hebrews 10:9 then?“

not at all ……. In any way have I suggested that . What happened was you interjected into a conversation o was having with someone and didn’t read what I had said or what we are discussing regarding the two covenants ….

happens a lot here people argue against things not even being said .

What I said was Jesus didn’t come to remove anything he came to fulfil the old covenant made with israel and preach the gospel the new covenant……to them first and then commission it to the world


The conversation you entered was about whether they were “ born again “ in the Old Testament . Just a mix up and lack of reading what was being said…….

….

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I already shared one with you, but it appears as though the notifications cut off after a certain number fill the box, so I'll share it again.

Psalms 51:10-11

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

The combination of our faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is what makes us born again.

And this is showing that people in the ot were born again ? Gods spirit was upon and with many ot prophets gods spirit dwelling with a prophet like David isn’t what being born again is about. Not David asking for mercy . …. But i digress


“The law and the prophets were until John:


since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. ……But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure psalm 51 is proof of Old Testament doctrine that they were all born again lol but probably just me I’d say still it’s entirely a New Testament doctrine that regards the gospel of the kingdom Jesus began to preach …..

 

[HeIsHere]

but to reign and rule from the NEW Jeruslam

Then why do we read in Hebrews 11 that all the saints of old, including father Abraham himself that

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced

them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a

country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have

returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath

prepared for them a city.

The promises land is a heavenly city.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@Pilgrimshope, I'm using a more detailed explanation from A.I. to help communicate this better...

John 5:21 - For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The Father Quickens — Old Testament Believers​

The first clause, "the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them," describes what God has always done. Old Testament believers were quickened by the Father's sovereign power — raised from spiritual death (sin) to life in grace through faith in the promised Messiah, the Law, the prophets, and the sacrificial system. Examples include Abraham, Moses, and the patriarchs, all of whom "believed God" (Hebrews 11) and received spiritual life from the Father before the Son's incarnation. The Father's quickening power is the eternal, unchanging source of life.

The Son Quickens Whom He Will — New Testament Believers​

The second clause, "the Son quickeneth whom he will," reveals that the Son now shares equally in that same life-giving authority. For New Testament believers, the Son mediates the Father's quickening:

• Spiritual quickening: Christ gives new life (regeneration) to those who believe in Him — "the dead in sin hear His voice in the Gospel, and live" (Gill's Exposition). This is the renewing of the heart, which Barnes notes "is as much the result of His will as the raising of the dead."
• Physical resurrection: The Son will raise the dead at the last day — "all that are in their graves shall come forth" (John 5:28–29).

The Key Connection​

As Augustine clarified, the Son "raises to life the same whom the Father raises" — it is not a division of labor where the Father saves one group and the Son saves another. Rather, the Son's will is "in spontaneous accord" with the Father's (BibleHub commentary). The Father's quickening of OT believers and the Son's quickening of NT believers flow from one and the same divine life, now revealed through the incarnate Son. The Old Testament saints looked forward in faith to the same Christ who now quickens His people; the New Testament believers receive that quickening directly

Yes I’m sort of clear already on it friend just based on scripture. Ai is way too much for an old timer like me . My nephew showed me some interesting things he would put a position into the ai and ask it to create and argument , then put another position into ai and ask it to create and argument then we looked at the two opposing arguments lol there existed the same contradictions that exist between two people with opposing views


My opinion after he did a few experiments like that is that it tends to make you ( the user ) think your right even if you put opposite conclusions into it but I sort of realized ai isn’t a good way to try to grasp Gods word but rather through prayer and study and practice.


abut this isn’t to disparage your opinions regarding ai or the Bible it’s just that I have a different view from some of you

 

[OMC]

AI can help organize thoughts or surface verses, but it cannot teach, convict, correct, or reveal — only Scripture can do that (2 Tim. 3:16).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Then why do we read in Hebrews 11 that all the saints of old, including father Abraham himself that

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced

them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a

country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have

returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath

prepared for them a city.

The promises land is a heavenly city.

Amen

“And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:8-10, 13-14,

why would they teach them this stuff if it’s not true ?

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Two Jerusalems one that is above and free the other that is now and in bondage based upon the two covenants

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us ( Christian’s ) all.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22, 24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Beekeeper]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum addresses Revelation 11:8 directly within his expositional framework (The Footsteps of the Messiah), explicitly distinguishing between the symbolic naming of Jerusalem in Revelation 11 and the literal geopolitical system of Babylon in Revelation 17–18.

1. The Context of Revelation 11:8: Jerusalem, Not Babylon
Fruchtenbaum notes that Revelation 11:8 identifies its location via a clear, unambiguous geographical anchor: "where also our Lord was crucified."
Because Jesus was historically crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem, the geographic subject of Revelation 11:8 is unequivocally Jerusalem.
When the text states that this city is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," Fruchtenbaum emphasizes the qualifying adverb "spiritually" (pneumatikōs):
* Sodom represents moral corruption and perversion.
* Egypt represents bondage, idolatry, and anti-God worldliness.

Thus, in Revelation 11:8, John is using metaphorical nomenclature to describe the moral and spiritual degradation of Jerusalem during the second half of the Tribulation, when the Antichrist desecrates the Second Temple (or Tribulation Temple) and the city becomes a center of apostasy. It is metaphorically Sodom and Egypt, but literally Jerusalem.

2. The Identity of Babylon in Revelation 17–18: Literal City, Not Jerusalem
A core pillar of Fruchtenbaum's dispensational hermeneutic is literal interpretation unless the text explicitly demands otherwise. He argues against allegory when geographic place names are used without spiritualizing qualifiers.
While some allegorical frameworks identify Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17–18 as Jerusalem (or Rome), Fruchtenbaum rejects this view for several key structural reasons:
A. Distinct Textual Indicators
* In Revelation 11:8, the text explicitly adds the qualifier "spiritually called" to indicate a metaphorical title (Sodom/Egypt) assigned to a known city (Jerusalem).
* In Revelation 17:5, the title is written on the harlot’s forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT..." Fruchtenbaum asserts that "Mystery" modifies the name: it signifies a spiritual truth now revealed regarding the historical system of religious apostasy, while the city itself remains the literal, historical site of Babylon on the Euphrates (in modern-day Iraq).
B. The Dual Nature of Babylon (Religious vs. Commercial)
Fruchtenbaum divides the judgment of Babylon into two distinct phases across chapters 17 and 18:
* Revelation 17 (Ecclesiastical/Religious Babylon): The false world religious system that dominates the first half of the Tribulation, which is eventually destroyed by the Ten Kings and the Antichrist (Rev 17:16).
* Revelation 18 (Political/Commercial Babylon): The literal rebuilt city of Babylon on the Euphrates, functioning as the economic and political capital of the Antichrist’s empire in the second half of the Tribulation, which is destroyed directly by God at the end of the age.

C. Divergent Old Testament Prophetic Fulfillments
Fruchtenbaum points to unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies regarding the destruction of literal Babylon (such as Isaiah 13–14 and Jeremiah 50–51). Prophecy demands that Babylon be suddenly destroyed, never to be inhabited again. Historically, ancient Babylon decayed slowly over centuries rather than suffering catastrophic, instantaneous destruction by fire as described in Jeremiah 51:26 and Revelation 18. Jerusalem, conversely, is never destined for perpetual desolation; scripture establishes that Jerusalem will be redeemed and serve as the capital of the Messianic Kingdom.

Trying to persuade people that the Bible says different things from what it actually says takes a lot of words and work.
Fruchtenbaum already has a subjective reason to not believe that the harlot is Jerusalem, and I can not take him seriously.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That was the whole plan in order to bring the Gospel to the Gentile nations (as the second born) like I described to you in a previous post about God/Jesus always using the 2nd born to do his work such as Ishmael & Isaac, Esau & Jacob, etc.. In the Jewish world, the first born ALWAYS received the blessings and inheritance from their fathers. In God/Jesus' world, not so much. He was changing up the order of things.

I was hoping to get your response from your original post on everything in "two" because I didn't understand what you were saying in the last few paragraphs of that post.

Yes what I was getting at was there are two covenants . This makes two of everything. The first and then the second. Not. Cain , but abel , not esau but Jacob …. Not Abram but Abraham not Jacob but israel not Simon but Peter. Not Saul but Paul . Not the ot but the nt ……not this world but the one to come

 

[WayneNSO]

Then why do we read in Hebrews 11 that all the saints of old, including father Abraham himself that

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced

them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a

country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have

returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath

prepared for them a city.

The promises land is a heavenly city.

Yes exactly they look forward to the heavenly city.
If you read the beatitudes - it says the meek shall inherit the earth and each verse gives a description of a Christian attribute, followed by a description of the heavenly city. It says things like Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven etc It comes to us from heaven, its builder is Christ and it is not up in the sky on fluffy clouds, It is a physical reality on earth.


Revelation‬ ‭21:2

 

[WayneNSO]

Yes exactly they look forward to the heavenly city.
If you read the beatitudes - it says the meek shall inherit the earth and each verse gives a description of a Christian attribute, followed by a description of the heavenly city. It says things like Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven etc It comes to us from heaven, its builder is Christ and it is not up in the sky on fluffy clouds, It is a physical reality on earth.


Revelation‬ ‭21:2

Gods people like Abraham, look for a city which have foundations whos builder and maker is God.

For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:10


And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:2

The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is connected with Hebrews 12 verse 22 which says:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:22

The bible speaks of the Kingdom of heaven, and the Kingdom of God, the bible never tells us of the kingdom IN heaven. Throughout the bible we read of God coming down to us, not us flying up to heaven.

And so in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 we see the fulfilment of what Jesus said in Luke 11:2:

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luke 11:2


And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:3

The word tabernacle means a dwelling place. The dwelling of God will be among his people. This is when the name Emmanuel, God with us, spoken of in Matthew 1 verses 22 and 23, and Isaiah 7 verse 14, reaches it ultimate fulfillment.

Matthew 1:22-23
Isaiah 7:14

It is also the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 verse 27, talking about the whole house of Israel it says:

My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel 37:27

It is such a wonderful thing we look forward to and hope for

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[WayneNSO]

Gods people like Abraham, look for a city which have foundations whos builder and maker is God.

For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:10


And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:2

The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is connected with Hebrews 12 verse 22 which says:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:22

The bible speaks of the Kingdom of heaven, and the Kingdom of God, the bible never tells us of the kingdom IN heaven. Throughout the bible we read of God coming down to us, not us flying up to heaven.

And so in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 we see the fulfilment of what Jesus said in Luke 11:2:

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luke 11:2


And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:3

The word tabernacle means a dwelling place. The dwelling of God will be among his people. This is when the name Emmanuel, God with us, spoken of in Matthew 1 verses 22 and 23, and Isaiah 7 verse 14, reaches it ultimate fulfillment.

Matthew 1:22-23
Isaiah 7:14

It is also the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 verse 27, talking about the whole house of Israel it says:

My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel 37:27

It is such a wonderful thing we look forward to and hope for

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:36

Some people read John 18 verse 36, where Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:" and they assume that Jesus is saying His Kingdom is only in heaven. That we will live in some ethereal place above the clouds. But, Jesus was saying that His earthly Kingdom was not of that age, which was the Roman world empire, the forth empire of Daniels vision, that still exists today in a different form. Daniel 7 verse 22, tells of a time when judgment is given to the saints of the most high, "and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:22

Isaiah 9 verse 6 prophesis of the birth of Jesus and says: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:" thats the new heaven and Earth.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

And in Psalms 37 verse 11 we read "the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalms 37:11


He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:20

Revelation 22 Verse 20 says "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." The coming of Jesus Christ and the full manifestation of His kingdom in this Earth is a theme that runs through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It is the hope of Gods people and creation:

The carnal Man seeks in vain for a remedy, but there is no remedy but Jesus Christ establishing His kingdom in this Earth.

And the saints say "come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[Beekeeper]

I guess I should have highlighted or enlarged the part of my post that said:

• Symbol of Rebellion: Originating from the Tower of Babel narrative in Genesis, the city became a biblical symbol of human pride, idolatry, and defiance against God.

What we can learn from Revelation 17 (like all of the other prophetic books of the Bible) is that history repeats itself, but when it does in the book of Revelation, it does it on A MUCH LARGER SCALE THAT AFFECTS THE WHOLE WORLD.

I have no problem with the view that this story has much wider implications both in the present and in the future, or that the effects of them are global.
Just as Jerusalem was judged in the first century, so will the whole world also be judged.
Skipping over or denying the first century implications of the story however will undermine anything of value that we might get from it to this present time.
In may have been intended for us, but it was also written to people of John's time.

 

[Beekeeper]

Revelation 18:24 just tells you that blood of prophets and saints is found in her, AND ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH. Saints have been dying at the hands of Muslims everyday. In fact, many Christian organizations say that more Christians have been martyred all over the world in the last 100 years than all previous periods put together.

We're talking about a bigger system than just the city of Jerusalem.

We need to be more Biblical than that.

"Muslims" are not a "great city" or a place "where also our Lord was crucified".
They were not judged after the law of Moses in the presence of 2 witnesses called the 2 olive branches and 2 candlesticks and bearing the signs of Moses and the OT prophets.
It is not appropriate that they ever will be judged in this manner, because they have never lived under Moses' law.
Muslims did not have a manipulative "friendship" with Rome, and the ten deputy rulers of Rome did turn against them hating and destroying them wile taking upon themselves great authority.

The story is so much like the first century siege and destruction of Jerusalem that it would be very dishonest to ignore the obvious connection.

So what about the prophets?
Zechariah was not speaking of the Muslims when he said "The Lord look upon it, and require it" after they stoned him to death in the temple (2 Chronicles 24:20-22).
Uriah, friend of Jeremiah, was executed with a sword in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah himself Beaten and put in stocks (Jeremiah 20:2), Thrown into a muddy cistern (Jeremiah 38:6), wished he had never been born (Jeremiah 20:14–18), And yet, he kept speaking.
Jezabel hunted and killed many prophets of God (1kings 18:4).
John the baptist beheaded, Jesus crucified ("for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem" Luke 13:33).

Too many prophets were killed in Jerusalem to list them all here but I hope you get the idea that in the first century Jerusalem was without doubt the worlds capital for murdering prophets.

It is also apostate Jerusalem that is repeatedly called a "Harlot" throughout the OT.
e.g. Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot!"

So if it is really the Bible that guides our views and not our views interpreting the Bible subjectively,
we will have to be honest and admit that the great city of Rev. 17 and 18 is thoroughly identified as first century Jerusalem.