Assumptions Assumptions

[Inquisitor]

Wow...you read that all wrong. My point was that people who have new hearts and spirits have different and holy desires and do not operate in the flesh. And those indwelt by the Spirit are under conviction when they sin. They aren't trying to sin. The opposite is true. And perseverance of the saints isn't accomplished by the individual, but by the Lord. That's why preservation is the better term.

So how could the Christian churches in Sardis and Laodicea reach that point, where they are blotted out from the book
of life? If what you are saying is correct, Cameron.

Revelation 3:4-5
But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk
with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Only a few people in Sardis had not spoiled their garments as for the rest of the church in Sardis?

There may be a difference between "overcoming" and "not trying to sin".

We overcome because the Lord overcame but we also overcome by walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to
the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led
by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

What sayeth ye to Romans 8:12-14?

 

[Chester]

So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.

OK, I might be able to agree with you on your point here. I do not believe in OSAS. I think I can agree that to assume that someone who believes in OSAS promotes sinning is usually a fallacy.

Let's turn it around now. People who believe in OSAS often assume and generalize that anyone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is by works (or at best by some sort of combination of faith and works). I think this is a fallacy and a false assumption.

I wonder, Wattie, if you agree that this is a fallacy?

 

[wattie]

OK, I might be able to agree with you on your point here. I do not believe in OSAS. I think I can agree that to assume that someone who believes in OSAS promotes sinning is usually a fallacy.

Let's turn it around now. People who believe in OSAS often assume and generalize that anyone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is by works (or at best by some sort of combination of faith and works). I think this is a fallacy and a false assumption.

I wonder, Wattie, if you agree that this is a fallacy?

Well, if I could lose my salvation I would have to maintain it by good works.

 

[Cameron143]

So how could the Christian churches in Sardis and Laodicea reach that point, where they are blotted out from the book
of life? If what you are saying is correct, Cameron.

Revelation 3:4-5
But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk
with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Only a few people in Sardis had not spoiled their garments as for the rest of the church in Sardis?

There may be a difference between "overcoming" and "not trying to sin".

We overcome because the Lord overcame but we also overcome by walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to
the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led
by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

What sayeth ye to Romans 8:12-14?

Not everyone who attach themselves to Christ and the church are saved. It was true in Jesus' time...John 2:24-25, and it is true today...just look at churches today.

If you look back to my original comments, my point was simply that Calvinists do not believe their preservation in Christ not secured by themselves, but by Christ. My subsequent point was that no genuine Christian...someone given a new heart and spirit, and indwelt by the Spirit...practices sin because their desires have been changed. They have become new creations. They are fundamentally different than what they once were.

I didn't realize this was controversial. Perhaps I relayed this poorly.

 

[Cameron143]

OK, I might be able to agree with you on your point here. I do not believe in OSAS. I think I can agree that to assume that someone who believes in OSAS promotes sinning is usually a fallacy.

Let's turn it around now. People who believe in OSAS often assume and generalize that anyone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is by works (or at best by some sort of combination of faith and works). I think this is a fallacy and a false assumption.

I wonder, Wattie, if you agree that this is a fallacy?

Do you understand why someone makes the claim?

 

[DebbyAliveInChrist]

The spue thee out of my mouth verse is in relation to an entire local church.

The phrase is addressed to a whole congregation.

Revelation also speaks of churches having a 'lampstand'. The place of the Holy Spirit in a NT assembly.

So, spue out of the mouth refers to a local church no longer being one of God's churches.

If the verse is addressed to a whole congregation, that is the application.

I also don't mean a building when I say 'church '...but the believers who are members of a NT congregation.....who may meet at a building.

The individual members don't lose salvation, but the whole congregation loses the Holy Spirit 'in their midst '

Right - the passage in Revelation was addressed to a church - God's "spewing them out of HIs mouth" - I take as an example of what God does to anyone who regresses to the condition of spiritual laziness - to a degree that God is unable to tolerate. God said He'd punish them if they didn't REPENT.
Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV
The fact that they were asked to REPENT - shows that they had originally been obedient to God, until they regressed.

 

[rewriter]

Is there a difference between sinning less or sinning more?

That would depend on your understanding of what sin is. If sin is a state of the self that leads to sinful actions, then there is no "more or less", but if one considers sin to be the actions themselves then more or less is possible.

Personally, I hold that sin is a state that we all live in that leads to the actions, and that we are stuck in this state while we are physical, even if God has promised to heal us from this state when we depart the physical realm.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I understand. There are those who believe OSAS so they can live like the devil. They don't understand eternal salvation to begin with.

True

 

[wattie]

Right - the passage in Revelation was addressed to a church - God's "spewing them out of HIs mouth" - I take as an example of what God does to anyone who regresses to the condition of spiritual laziness - to a degree that God is unable to tolerate. God said He'd punish them if they didn't REPENT.
Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV
The fact that they were asked to REPENT - shows that they had originally been obedient to God, until they regressed.

Yeah they regressed, but it's really about discipline than any individual in the congregation losing eternal life. If it were actually losing eternal life..that would be everyone in that congregation losing eternal life.

 

[wattie]

How do you understand the following verses.

Revelation 3:4-5
But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk
with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Is the church in Sardis different from the church in Laodicea?

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm
neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

Such strong words to the folk in Sardis that seems to mirror the strong warning to the church in Sardis.

I would directly associate both warnings with a falling from grace, both the church itself and the folk within that church.

Discipline and correction, not loss of eternal life.

 

[Chester]

Well, if I could lose my salvation I would have to maintain it by good works.

I do not believe in OSAS and I vehemently deny that works are the basis of my salvation. I am saved because I believe in Jesus Christ.

But you are saying that (are assuming - making an assumption) I maintain my salvation by works? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Chester]

Do you understand why someone makes the claim?

I am not sure if I understand what you are asking for sure?

Are you asking if I understand why someone makes this claim: someone who does not believe in OSAS actually is depending upon works to stay saved?

 

[Cameron143]

I am not sure if I understand what you are asking for sure?

Are you asking if I understand why someone makes this claim: someone who does not believe in OSAS actually is depending upon works to stay saved?

How do you stay saved?

 

[wattie]

I do not believe in OSAS and I vehemently deny that works are the basis of my salvation. I am saved because I believe in Jesus Christ.

But you are saying that (are assuming - making an assumption) I maintain my salvation by works? Am I understanding you correctly?

Ok, yeah i also assume things. We are all guilty of it. Sure.

But logically, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then surely you have to do good works to maintain it.

It isn't logical inference to assume OSAS means a license to sin, but if I could lose my salvation, logically I would have to keep up good behaviours to keep salvation.

 

[Chester]

How do you stay saved?

I stay saved the same way I got saved: by the grace of God through faith in Jesus.

 

[Chester]

Ok, yeah i also assume things. We are all guilty of it. Sure.

But logically, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then surely you have to do good works to maintain it.

It isn't logical inference to assume OSAS means a license to sin, but if I could lose my salvation, logically I would have to keep up good behaviours to keep salvation.

Why is it "logical that I would have to keep up good behaviours to keep salvation"?

I got saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and that is exactly the same way that I stay saved. I really have no idea why non-OSAS people are automatically accused of saying we believe works are needed to maintain salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

I stay saved the same way I got saved: by the grace of God through faith in Jesus.

So you remain saved because of what God does. So if OSAS is false, it is not because of what one does, but because God stops extending grace.

 

[Chester]

So you remain saved because of what God does. So if OSAS is false, it is not because of what one does, but because God stops extending grace.

I initially got saved because I received and appropriated the grace of God that he offered. That is exactly how and why I am still saved today. God's grace is always extended to all men, but one must receive that grace through faith.

How would you answer the question: What must a man do to get saved?

 

[wattie]

Why is it "logical that I would have to keep up good behaviours to keep salvation"?

I got saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and that is exactly the same way that I stay saved. I really have no idea why non-OSAS people are automatically accused of saying we believe works are needed to maintain salvation.

Well, if you can lose salvation, then there would be things you shouldn't do with your behaviour. So you would need to avoid doing those things.

That's keeping up good works to not lose salvation.

 

[pinebeach]

God sees us as sinless IN Christ. We are not physically sinless and even if we were, there would still be past sins that would
destroy the image of sinless perfectionism. Which, is why we die a physical death and are not raised again in this life as
was Jesus. Sorry, but we are all physically rotten to the core. Sin has tainted our bodies which is why we will be given resurrection bodies.

It seems that some people do not understand this truth of how or why God accepts us while we are still on this earth as physical beings, or, they apply the sinless to themselves while it is only Christ who was ever sinless on this earth which is why He was
sent by God to die on our behalf. Ignorance of the OT scriptures and the entire sacrificial system will also lend itself to
the misapprehension of our standing IN Christ, which is the ONLY way we are acceptable to God the Father.

There is not such thing as being sinless.....should we cease from sin? Absolutely, but sanctification (u can look that up, it's in scripture) is a process and not an instant occurrence.

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

Only by Jesus Christ Himself could such claims be truly made. The greatest theologian, Paul, said concerning Christ that He “knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). His closest friends, Peter and John, said that He “did no sin” (1 Peter 2:22) and that in Him is no sin (1 John 3:5). His betrayer, Judas, said, “I have betrayed the innocent blood” (Matthew 27:4); His condemning judge, Pilate, said, “I find in him no fault at all” (John 18:38); and His executioner said, “This was a righteous man” (Luke 23:47). Christ Himself claimed human perfection: “For I do always those things that please him” (John 8:29).

Jesus Christ alone was sinlessly perfect in His human life, and it was because of this that He could die for our sins. It is arrogant for one of us to claim a state of perfection, thus leading such a person into repeated assertions of boasting and self-justification, trying to explain why apparently sinful behavior is not really sinful. Even Paul himself acknowledged: “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect” (Philippians 3:12).

But between these two key verses in John’s epistle, he gives us the moment-by-moment remedy for sin in a godly believer’s life: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (1 John 1:7) source
https://www.icr.org/content/only-christ-was-sinless-3