That's like saying there is no group called "the church", because they are saved as individuals.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
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Yes, let's look at what Hamas is doing, not to Israelis, but PALESTINIAN GAZANS...
UN findings (June 2026): A UN Human Rights Commission report found Hamas-affiliated Palestinian operatives and police carried out 108 deaths (all Palestinian/Gazan victims) and dozens of maimings (kneecapping, bone-breaking with metal pipes and cement bricks) between August 2024 and January 2026. The UN concluded these acts "amount to a war crime." The stated justifications included alleged collaboration with Israel, looting aid, theft, and affiliation with rival groups.
October 2025 public executions: After the ceasefire took effect, Hamas (a Palestinian militant group) publicly executed at least 33 Palestinian/Gazan people in days, including a widely-verified video of 7–8 blindfolded Palestinian/Gazan men shot in a Gaza City street before a watching crowd. The Doghmush clan (a prominent Palestinian/Gazan family) reported 33 of its members killed after being granted safety assurances. A Hamas (Palestinian) internal security official confirmed the killings.
Killing people seeking food: A CFR (a US think tank) analysis (June 2025) and CNN (a US news outlet) documented Hamas (Palestinian) executing Palestinian/Gazan civilians and shooting others in the legs for "looting" humanitarian aid. Amnesty International's (a UK-based human rights organization) 2025 report confirmed Hamas (Palestinian) executed at least 39 Palestinian/Gazan civilians accused of collaboration and summarily punished scores more for looting.
Cracking down on protesters: In March–April 2025, Hamas (Palestinian) killed at least six Palestinian/Gazan people who joined rare anti-Hamas protests in northern Gaza. Activist Odai Nasser Al Rabay (Palestinian/Gazan) was tortured and executed, his family said, for participating in demonstrations. A BBC (a British broadcaster) report from the same period noted Hamas (Palestinian) "targets activists and civilians, beats and kills them to scare people."
Longer pattern: Human Rights Watch's (a US-based human rights organization) 2018 report and a 2019 follow-up documented that Hamas (Palestinian) routinely arrests, beats, and tortures peaceful Palestinian/Gazan critics, journalists, and protesters — a practice dating back to its 2007 takeover of Gaza.
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LOL 113 is the highest points credited in this software to anyone, as that even matters.
How ridiculous.
Each and every verse must be exegeted in context using correct hermeneutics.
That you argue this basic principle, informs me you are not a serious student of scripture or any text for that matter.
Since conversation with you typically devolves, I am moving on.
Revelation 7 shows you that they ALL belonged to the 12 Tribes of Israel, literally.
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Yet you have done NONE of those things that you suggest others do. I've already asked you to point out where I'm taking scriptures out of context and you haven't done it. Why? Because you can't. You just want to blow out a bunch of opinions NEVER backing up your claims.
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I get a belly laugh watching them stumble over the 144,000.
They try so hard to make it into all sorts of things.
So cunning!!!!
Nope not really.
Why do you attribute these things to me? I've denounced the October 7th actions and the people responsible for them.
Both things can be true at the same time:
1. Natural Israel is killing some people indiscriminately.
2. Islamists are necessarily terrorists.
A victim of propaganda cannot properly judge matters: there is only approval or derision. God's people, with the Spirit of Christ, are to judge matters with wisdom from above. But our standard of judgement is the character of Christ, not what is permitted by those outside the Body of Christ.
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
The narrative from Israel is coercive: “I'm so proud of our relations with our Christian brothers and sisters..." (Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli Prime Minister). This, from a people who reject Christ and our Father. What fellowship do we have with anyone who rejects Christ?
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
So, by what judgement are we siblings to natural Jews? Certainly not by the Holy Spirit.
And even if you believe that a day of redemption will come to Jews because of their natural lineage (I do not believe this), Paul is clear about their current standing:
"Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account..."
They work against you, if indeed you are in Christ. They oppose the gospel that will save them and the carriers of the message of salvation.
Weird way to write: "I like to make scripture say things it doesn't."
When it is written "The Twelves Tribes" and you do not have a list of the Twelve Tribes, you are to seek the Lord for wisdom. It's not a one to one correlation. Something else is going on. Religious gymnastics are required to shoehorn Dan's omission and Manasseh's inclusion. Let the text speak for itself.
We also have these accounts:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel..."
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly..."
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
One would have to ignore many scriptures to conclude these are ethnic Jews in Revelation 7.
Now, why did you cut off that verse to deceive everyone? Let's look at what all of those verses are saying.
Romans 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of tribes in Revelation 7 because they have a long history of idol worshipping. You've been told that before, but you ignore it to try and act convincing here, when you are not.
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Weird way to write, " let me reframe Gods word to fit my doctrine"
God was kidding when he framed them as ethnic jews...wink ....wink.
Are we to trust a person who declares that:
- Jerusalem is not Jerusalem
-nations are not nations
-the earth is not the earth
-rain is not rain
-families are not families
????????
Of course not. Frankly, I don't trust a word you say, and practically everything you write is effrontery to the intended prophetic message of the Bible.
Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the ***earth*** unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Good grief its one false alarm after another with these people.
Bible Study: The Different Orders and Variations of the Twelve Tribes of Israel
There are approximately 20–30 separate listings of Israel's tribes throughout Scripture, representing at least 18 distinct arrangements or orders.The precise number depends on whether one counts genealogies, military censuses, camp arrangements, land allotments, prophetic blessings, and partial tribal lists.
Interestingly, E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible, Appendix 45, identifies 20 different lists. An earlier scholarly examination, The Lists of the Twelve Tribes, identifies approximately 18 different orders, with the encampment sequence in Numbers 2, 7, and 10 being the principal repeated arrangement.
Other surveys identify roughly two dozen lists, while a broader academic classification reaches approximately 30.
This is an especially interesting subject in biblical prophecy because the tribal listings change in both sequence and composition, culminating in two strikingly different arrangements in Ezekiel 48 and Revelation 7.
1. The principal biblical lists
| Scripture | Purpose or distinguishing characteristic |
|---|---|
| Genesis 29–30; 35:16–18 | Actual birth sequence of Jacob's twelve sons |
| Genesis 35:22–26 | Sons grouped by their mothers |
| Genesis 46:8–27 | Jacob's descendants entering Egypt |
| Genesis 49:1–28 | Jacob's prophetic blessings |
| Exodus 1:1–5 | Sons entering Egypt; Joseph listed separately |
| Numbers 1:5–15 | Tribal leaders appointed for the census |
| Numbers 1:20–46 | Military census |
| Numbers 2:1–34 | Encampment surrounding the Tabernacle |
| Numbers 7:12–83 | Order of tribal offerings |
| Numbers 10:14–28 | Order of march |
| Numbers 13:4–15 | Twelve spies |
| Numbers 26:5–62 | Second census |
| Numbers 34:16–29 | Leaders assigned to apportion Canaan |
| Deuteronomy 27:12–13 | Tribes assigned to Gerizim and Ebal |
| Deuteronomy 33:6–25 | Moses' prophetic blessings |
| Joshua 13–19 | Territorial inheritance |
| Judges 5:14–18 | Tribes participating or not participating in conflict |
| 1 Chronicles 2:1–2 | Genealogical listing |
| 1 Chronicles 2–9 | Extended genealogies |
| 1 Chronicles 12:23–38 | Tribal contingents supporting David |
| 1 Chronicles 27:16–22 | Leaders of the tribes |
| Ezekiel 48:1–29 | Future division of the land |
| Ezekiel 48:30–35 | Twelve gates of the future city |
| Revelation 7:4–8 | Twelve tribes represented among the 144,000 |
2. Comparison of three particularly significant lists
The differences become especially apparent when comparing the original twelve sons, the tribes receiving future land allotments, and the 144,000 sealed Israelites.| Position | Genesis: Birth order | Ezekiel 48: Land allotments | Revelation 7: The 144,000 |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Reuben | Dan | Judah |
| 2 | Simeon | Asher | Reuben |
| 3 | Levi | Naphtali | Gad |
| 4 | Judah | Manasseh | Asher |
| 5 | Dan | Ephraim | Naphtali |
| 6 | Naphtali | Reuben | Manasseh |
| 7 | Gad | Judah | Simeon |
| 8 | Asher | Benjamin | Levi |
| 9 | Issachar | Simeon | Issachar |
| 10 | Zebulun | Issachar | Zebulun |
| 11 | Joseph | Zebulun | Joseph |
| 12 | Benjamin | Gad | Benjamin |
Notice several remarkable differences:
- Judah moves from fourth to first in Revelation 7, consistent with the royal and Messianic prominence of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Revelation 5:5).
- Dan disappears from Revelation 7, despite appearing first in Ezekiel's future land allotments.
- Ephraim is not named in Revelation 7, although Manasseh is.
- Joseph is named alongside Manasseh in Revelation 7; some interpreters understand Joseph there as representing Ephraim, although the passage does not explicitly say so.
- Levi is restored to the twelve in Revelation 7, unlike many territorial and military lists.
3. Why the variations occur
There are several underlying organizing principles.The biological principle: Jacob had twelve sons (Genesis 35:22–26), but Joseph received a double portion through his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh (Genesis 48:5, 22; 1 Chronicles 5:1–2).
The territorial principle: Levi was set apart for priestly service and received cities rather than an ordinary tribal territory (Numbers 18:20–24; Joshua 14:4). Thus, Joseph's two sons could be counted separately to maintain twelve territorial inheritances.
The administrative principle: Some lists follow encampment positions, marching order, tribal leadership, or military organization rather than biological birth order.
The prophetic principle: Genesis 49, Deuteronomy 33, Ezekiel 48, and Revelation 7 have different literary and prophetic purposes, helping explain their distinct arrangements.
One particularly noteworthy exception is Deuteronomy 33, where Moses' blessings omit Simeon as a separately named tribe. Scripture does not explicitly explain that omission.
4. The prophetic importance of Dan
For a futurist, premillennial interpretation, the contrast between Ezekiel 48 and Revelation 7 deserves particular attention.Revelation 7 excludes Dan from the list of the sealed 144,000. Yet Ezekiel 48:1 explicitly assigns Dan territory in the future restoration.
That means Dan's omission from Revelation 7 cannot automatically be interpreted as permanent exclusion from Israel's future inheritance.
Some commentators associate Dan's omission with the tribe's history of idolatry, particularly Judges 18:30–31 and 1 Kings 12:28–30. However, Revelation itself gives no explicit reason for Dan's omission, so the idolatry explanation remains an interpretation rather than a stated biblical fact.
Ezekiel 48 also places the restored tribes in a geographical order that is entirely different from Revelation's list of those sealed during the Tribulation.
Under the dispensational interpretation, this distinction is understandable: Revelation 7 concerns Israelites sealed during Daniel's seventieth week, whereas Ezekiel 48 concerns Israel's future territorial inheritance.
5. Israel's identity is not dependent upon a single tribal list
This leads to an important observation.The same twelve-tribe designation persists despite differing arrangements, omissions, substitutions, and administrative divisions.
The New Testament continues to acknowledge Israel's twelve-tribe identity:
- Matthew 19:28 — Jesus promises the apostles authority over the twelve tribes of Israel.
- Luke 22:30 — The twelve tribes remain an identifiable future subject of judgment and government.
- Acts 26:7 — Paul speaks of the twelve tribes serving God and awaiting the fulfillment of the promise.
- James 1:1 — James addresses the twelve tribes scattered abroad.
- Revelation 7:4–8 — The tribes are individually enumerated.
- Revelation 21:12 — The twelve tribes' names appear upon the gates of the New Jerusalem.
It does not, by itself, settle every question concerning the relationship between Israel and the Church, but it is entirely compatible with the expectation of Israel's future national restoration in Romans 11:25–29.
Conclusion: Approximately 20–30 tribal listings, at least 18 distinct arrangements, and several substantive variations in composition appear throughout Scripture. Yet the twelve-tribe identity is retained from Genesis through Revelation.
For additional detailed comparisons, Bullinger's Appendix 45: The Order and Grouping of the Twelve Tribes is a particularly useful reference because it lays out 20 lists side by side.
That's only because they haven't had the Holy Spirit of God poured out on them yet and it won't happen until the Second Coming of Jesus. You know this, but don't care.
So, you're still not going to answer as to why you are listed as "NOT Christian" on your profile?
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One-liners is all you've got huh?
Yes, this is typical of the biblically illiterate.
The Bible really is about Jesus, that is why John calls Jesus the "word", who was in the beginning with God.
"All things were made by him" because God creates by speaking things into existence, i.e. "let there be light".
If our focus is on Christ when we read the Bible we are applying a Biblically justified bias.
I am used to studying passages and calmly considering which of the possible interpretations best match the rest of the Bible, but now I meet you and it is like having a mad parrot in a box screaming "this has gotta mean that" and "that has gotta mean this", and it is all directed by your un-Biblical bias towards modern Israel.
It seems almost as if you think the Bible is the West Bank.
Why were you so adamant that the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 is not Jesus?
It seems logical that it would be the one who can defeat Satan.
"I am used to studying passages and calmly considering which of the possible interpretations best match the rest of the Bible"
Except for every passage that speaks about Gomer, Naomi, Asenath, Zipporah, Ruth, Rahab, Samsons wife and every other representative "type" that connects in any way to the repentance redemption and restoration of the Nation Israel and/or the rapture of the Church.
And every OT and NT prophecy that speaks to these same things.
BTW, we are still waiting on your commentary on those Zechariah 14 passages......
Zechariah 12-14 are anathema as far as the CT's RT's and amils are concerned.