Oh there is a LOT of slinking going on around here.
And absolutely NONE of it is on the part of the futurist dispensationalists.
We deny nothing. And win every engagement in overwhelming fashion.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
And absolutely NONE of it is on the part of the futurist dispensationalists.
We deny nothing. And win every engagement in overwhelming fashion.
Yes, some just more subtle than others.
Here's what most of them do not realize about prophecy and how it was written:
How Cross-References Prove a Prophecy Is Still Future
The method is consistent: a prophecy in one passage is repeated, quoted, or echoed in another passage that explicitly places it in a future timeframe. When the "echo" is tied to an event that has not yet occurred, the original prophecy must also be future.1. Daniel's 70th Week → Jesus' Olivet Discourse
Daniel 9:27 describes a final "week" in which the Messiah is "cut off" and the temple is destroyed. The first 69 weeks were fulfilled in the first-century temple's destruction (AD 70). But the 70th week has no historical match.Cross-reference: In Matthew 24:15, Jesus quotes Daniel's "abomination of desolation" and says "you who reads, let him understand" — directing his listeners to a future event. In Matthew 24:21, he calls it "great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be." The fact that Jesus treats Daniel's language as unfulfilled and upcoming is direct proof the 70th week is future.
2. Joel's "Day of the Lord" → Pentecost + Matthew 24
Joel 2:28–31 predicts an outpouring of the Spirit followed by "blood and fire and billows of smoke," the sun turned to darkness, and the moon to blood.Cross-reference: In Acts 2:16–21, Peter quotes the first part (the Spirit outpouring) and declares it is happening now. But he stops before the signs in verse 30–31. Those signs are picked up in Matthew 24:29 ("the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give its light, the stars shall fall") and Revelation 6:12–17 — both explicitly tied to Christ's second coming, not Pentecost. The partial fulfillment at Pentecost actually confirms the remaining signs are future, because the text itself wasn't fully exhausted.
3. Isaiah's Babylon → Revelation 18
Isaiah 13:19–22 says Babylon will be so utterly destroyed it will "never be inhabited" and become a haunt for jackals and owls. The Medo-Persian conquest in 539 BC did not produce this total, permanent desolation — the site is still inhabited.Cross-reference: Revelation 18:2, 9–10, 17–19 repeats the exact same language — "Babylon is fallen," "no one will find a place to hide," "they will stand far off for fear of her burning" — and places it in the end-time sequence. The repetition in Revelation is the proof: Isaiah's description was not fully satisfied in 539 BC, and Revelation confirms the full destruction is still to come.
4. Isaiah 9
Isaiah 9:6 says a child is born and "the government will be on his shoulders" and his kingdom will have "no end."Cross-reference: The child's birth was fulfilled in Christ's first coming (Matthew 1:23). But the government and endless kingdom were not. Zechariah 14:9 says "the LORD shall be king over all the earth," and Matthew 25:31–40 describes Christ sitting "on the throne of his glory" to judge the nations — both explicitly future events. The unfulfilled half of Isaiah 9:6 is anchored to the second coming by these cross-references.
5. Isaiah 65
Isaiah 65:17 promises "new heavens and a new earth." This has never occurred.Cross-reference: 2 Peter 3:13 says "we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" — using the present tense "look for," indicating it is still awaited. Revelation 21:1 then depicts the event happening in John's vision of the end. Three independent authors across ~700 years all point to the same unfulfilled event, confirming it is future.
6. Ezekiel's Gog and Magog → Revelation 20
Ezekiel 38–39 describes a massive invasion of Israel by Gog from Magog, defeated by God. No historical event matches this.Cross-reference: Revelation 20:7–10 picks up the same Gog and Magog narrative and places it after the thousand-year reign of Christ. Because Revelation explicitly sets it in the post-millennial timeframe, Ezekiel's prophecy is confirmed as future.
7. The Regathering of Israel → Multiple Cross-References
Deuteronomy 30:3–5 and Jeremiah 23:3 promise God will gather Israel "out of all countries." This was never fully realized in the post-exilic return.Cross-reference: Ezekiel 37 (the dry bones) is explicitly about national restoration. Romans 11:25–27 says "all Israel will be saved" and links it to "the removal of their sins" — a future event. Matthew 24:32–34 (the fig tree) uses Israel's restoration as a sign of Christ's near return, treating the regathering as a future prerequisite.
8. Zechariah 14
Zechariah 14:3–4 says "the LORD's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" and the mountain will split.Cross-reference: In Acts 1:11, the angels tell the disciples that Jesus "will come in the same way as you have seen him go into heaven." This directly links Zechariah's future event to the promised second coming, confirming it has not yet happened.
The logic in every case is the same: if a later, explicitly future-timed scripture reuses the language of an earlier prophecy, and the event described in that earlier prophecy has no historical match, then the earlier prophecy must also be future. The cross-reference acts as a timestamp, pinning the unfulfilled prophecy to a specific future event.
--
Two people were riding that blow up donkey by the way, cv5 and Arnold Fruchtenbaum
Nope, I totally agree with his Biblical POV.
Yep. Some people know how to read the entire scriptures the way they were intended. TOGETHER. Like GOD/JESUS.
Too many here want to separate Jesus from God. I've seen people claiming to be Christian who actually believe that the God of the Old Testament was a horrible God and that Jesus is the true God, as if they weren't one and the same. That's when people start struggling to understand the scriptures based on my own observances. Well, that, and some seriously deep seated hatred for another culture that God kept separate from us for reasons in which we can obviously see. The same reason those people hate Christians. Some of each is being made blind in their own time, as the Bible predicted in Romans 11:30-32. We aren't all going to live in peace together until we reach the light of Heaven.
--
Why is it that you and your crew are calling King of the Jews the Goel Christ Jesus a fraud for saying this?
Mat 17:11
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
We however affirm this passage and rightly understand that it concatenates with the ENTIRE BIBLE.
And does so with impeccable precision and infallibility.
So tell us: why do you people just throw it under the bus with dripping contempt?
Partial failure for apostasizers? Yes?
Partial 'failure' for the Unfaithful members of The Body Of Christ? Yes?
Failure for the faithful members? No?
Ending in No Failure? Yes:
Christ Ending His Dispensation Of Grace With His Great Grace Departure, Yes?
Borrowed from 'link' ie = No failure, But Successful Completion Of:
(5) CHRIST "Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27 AV)
(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
"For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate To
Be Conformed To The Image Of His SON, That He might Be
The Firstborn [ Preeminent ? ] among many brethren."
(Romans 8:29 AV)
Successful Completion Of God's [ Heavenly ] Purpose For His Body, The Church!
Thus "replacement theology" { Heavenly Body of Christ replacing earthly Israel } is false.
Amen?
-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Your hopes, dreams, ambitions and fantasies do not align with the unequivocal Biblical facts.
Luk 1:30
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33
“And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Isaiah 9:6 says a child is born and "the government will be on his shoulders" and his kingdom will have "no end."
Cross-reference: The child's birth was fulfilled in Christ's first coming (Matthew 1:23). But the government and endless kingdom were not. Zechariah 14:9 says "the LORD shall be king over all the earth," and Matthew 25:31–40 describes Christ sitting "on the throne of his glory" to judge the nations — both explicitly future events.
The unfulfilled half of Isaiah 9:6 is anchored to the second coming by these cross-references.
Amen!
God's chosen people are not called to re-establish earthly Jerusalem in the new covenant.
What might be missing here to start with and possibly to end this slow death is the duel role Jesus has as messiah and divinity.
This is what I was trying to bring about but hey A.I. trumps things here.
Yes Jesus has a duel role to preform. Son of God....son of man.
Divinity meets flesh and bone....sound familiar.
Jesus said he would fulfill all of the prophets promises. But Isaiah says he was cut short from the land of the living.
I believe this will help in understanding why we look towards the future, and the real reason why 70ad temple was destroyed.
Make way for the Lord.
This is what I was trying to bring about but hey A.I. trumps things here.
Yes Jesus has a duel role to preform. Son of God....son of man.
Divinity meets flesh and bone....sound familiar.
Jesus said he would fulfill all of the prophets promises. But Isaiah says he was cut short from the land of the living.
Also one might want to explore the kangaroo court hearing of Jesus on what's being siad and why.
I believe this will help in understanding why we look towards the future, and the real reason why 70ad temple was destroyed.
Make way for the Lord.
@GRACE_ambassador, don't listen to Beekeeper, he's confused and doesn't know what he believes.
Stick with the Bible and what it says and you will be safe from deceivers.
God is establishing the Millennial Kingdom primarily to fulfill the unconditional covenants and promises made to Israel, including the Abrahamic, Davidic, Promised Land and New Covenants. This kingdom serves as the necessary transition where God gathers Israel from the nations, restores them to their promised land, and establishes Jesus Christ as their literal King on David's throne in Jerusalem.
Beyond covenant fulfillment, the kingdom aims to demonstrate God's holiness and righteous dominion over the earth, showing what life would have been had humanity not rebelled in Eden. It provides a period of global peace and justice, where Satan is bound to prevent deception, allowing humanity to live under perfect divine rule while the nation of Israel serves as a "light to the nations" and a witness to God's faithfulness.
Supporting Scriptures:
Stick with the Bible and what it says and you will be safe from deceivers.
God is establishing the Millennial Kingdom primarily to fulfill the unconditional covenants and promises made to Israel, including the Abrahamic, Davidic, Promised Land and New Covenants. This kingdom serves as the necessary transition where God gathers Israel from the nations, restores them to their promised land, and establishes Jesus Christ as their literal King on David's throne in Jerusalem.
Beyond covenant fulfillment, the kingdom aims to demonstrate God's holiness and righteous dominion over the earth, showing what life would have been had humanity not rebelled in Eden. It provides a period of global peace and justice, where Satan is bound to prevent deception, allowing humanity to live under perfect divine rule while the nation of Israel serves as a "light to the nations" and a witness to God's faithfulness.
Supporting Scriptures:
- Genesis 15:18 (Abrahamic / Land Covenant): "On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.'"
- 2 Samuel 7:12, 16 (Davidic Covenant): "When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom… And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me; your throne shall be established forever."
- Jeremiah 31:31–34 (New Covenant): "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, declares the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel in those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
- Luke 1:32–33 (Jesus on David's Throne): "And he will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
- Isaiah 9:6–7 (Eternal Kingdom): "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and in his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth, and even to forever."
- Ezekiel 37:26–28 (Covenant of Peace / Israel as Witness): "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."
- Revelation 20:1–3 (Satan Bound): "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while."
- Zechariah 12:10 (Gathering / Conversion of Israel): "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
- Matthew 24:31 (Gathering from the Nations): "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
You mean like this?
Jesus' Role as Messiah / Jesus' Role as God on the Earth
Jesus' role as the future Messiah to Israel is that of a conquering King and Deliverer who will return to rescue the believing Jewish remnant, judge the nations, and establish a millennial kingdom on earth. This second coming fulfills the prophetic hope that Israel will finally acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah after a period of tribulation, leading to their spiritual regeneration and national restoration.
In contrast, His role as God (the Divine Son of Man) is that of the sovereign Ruler and Judge who exercises absolute authority granted by the Father. As God, He is the eternal Priest and Lion of Judah who defeats evil, resurrects the dead, and reigns over all creation, fulfilling the cosmic dominion promised in Daniel and Revelation.
Scriptural Support
- Rescue and Salvation of Israel: Jesus will return to rescue the Jewish remnant who call upon Him, fulfilling Romans 11:26 where "all Israel shall be saved" and the Deliverer comes from Zion.
- Judgment of Nations: As the conquering King, He will strike the nations with a rod of iron and judge the earth, as described in Revelation 19:11–16 and Zechariah 14:4.
- Regeneration of Israel: The surviving Jewish remnant will look upon Him with mourning and repentance, fulfilling Zechariah 12:10 ("they shall look upon me whom they have pierced").
- Millennial Reign: He will establish a thousand-year earthly kingdom on David's throne, fulfilling Revelation 20:1–6 and Isaiah 9:6–7.
- Divine Authority: As God, He receives eternal dominion and glory from the Ancient of Days, fulfilling Daniel 7:13–14 and Revelation 14:14.
- Eternal Priesthood: He serves as the eternal priest after the order of Melchizedek, ruling with divine justice, fulfilling Psalm 110:4.
- Light to the Nations: His messianic mission extends beyond Israel to bring justice and salvation to the Gentiles, fulfilling Isaiah 42:1–6.
Jesus' Roles That Will No Longer Be Needed in the Permanent State of the Heavenly Kingdom
- Judge – All judgment is finished. The Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20:11–15) is the final act. There is no one left to condemn or vindicate. "Then I saw a great white throne… and the dead were judged by what was written in the books" (Rev 20:12). With no sin, no rebellion, and no unrepentant soul, the judicial function has no further purpose.
- Conqueror / Warrior King – The rod of iron, the sword from His mouth, and the war imagery of Revelation 19 describe a transitional victory. Once Satan, death, and every hostile power are destroyed, there is no enemy to defeat. "The last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). With no enemy, the conquering role is complete.
- Priest Who Offers Sacrifice – The one, final sacrifice of Calvary is eternally sufficient (Hebrews 10:10–14). In the new creation there is no sin to atone for, no altar, and no temple: "I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb" (Revelation 21:22). The mediatorial, intercessory priestly function tied to a fallen world has no further object.
- Deliverer from Tribulation – The purpose of the Deliverer role (Romans 11:26) is to rescue Israel from their enemies and from sin. Once that rescue is accomplished and death itself is abolished, the role is fulfilled and set aside.
- Mediator – Once all things are subjected and the Son delivers up the kingdom to the Father, the mediatorial office (1 Tim 2:5) is complete. There is no longer a need for a middleman between God and His people: "I saw no temple in the city" (Rev 21:22) — a temple exists to house a mediator; its absence signals that the mediation is finished.
--