Flesh can inherit the Millennial Kingdom on earth, but it can't inherit the Heavenly Kingdom.
People will actually be living, dying, and continuing to repopulate in the earthly Millennial Kingdom, not so in the Heavenly Kingdom.
--
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Flesh can inherit the Millennial Kingdom on earth, but it can't inherit the Heavenly Kingdom.
People will actually be living, dying, and continuing to repopulate in the earthly Millennial Kingdom, not so in the Heavenly Kingdom.
--
The permanent state of His Kingdom is in Heaven, and while God/Jesus will be transforming hearts, it will start on earth during the Millennial Kingdom. "Your kingdom come, your will be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." We know it's on earth because the entire description of Jesus' return laid out for us in the Bible talks about people visiting a temple, worshiping day and night, living, dying, repopulating, still sinning (on a much smaller scale) and keeping the Sabbaths. All of which is NOT needed in the permanent state of Heaven. AFTER that then we see the FINAL Great White Throne Judgement take place in Revelation 20.
Heaven doesn't need the sun or the moon because God/Jesus is the light of it:
Revelation 21:10-23
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
The promises of restoration must of course be considered alongside of the curses.
Deuteronomy 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
There is also a condition here for this blessing of obedience through faith.
This particular restoration promise is also under the covenant of Moses and for the children of Israel only.
We all know that God acted on it in the return from Babylon, while the Mosaic covenant still stood.
With the covenant of the law already permanently broken, God has still not abandoned His everlasting intentions, but He will not carry them out by means of the old covenant.
A new and better covenant is now established on better promises (Hebrews 8:6).
If a case can be made for a Jewish restoration by God to the earthly promised land, it must be found in these new covenant promises.
It is clear to us that these better promises include a spiritual restoration of the heart (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8), and future spiritual restoration of bodies, the earth, heaven and heavenly Jerusalem after the resurrection (1 Cor. 15)
What seems to be absent from the Bible however, is a new covenant promise that makes provision for an earthly restoration Jews to the land before the resurrection on the grounds of circumcision and blood relation to Abraham (John 8:37-58).
Those who wish to make this case will mostly refer us back to old covenant promises and events.
cv5 already explained it on the last page of this thread. Here's another explanation that I know has been shared here before too:
Jesus replaced the Mosaic Covenant because it was a temporal and conditional arrangement that Israel failed to keep, whereas the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are sovereign, unconditional, and eternal. The New Testament explicitly identifies the Mosaic Law as obsolete and replaced, while affirming that the promises to Abraham and David find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ without being terminated.
The Mosaic Covenant Was Replaced
The Mosaic Covenant is described as the "Old Covenant" that is obsolete and ready to vanish away because it was broken by Israel. Jesus instituted the New Covenant, which supersedes the Mosaic system of law and sacrifice.- Hebrews 8:13: "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
- 2 Corinthians 3:11: "For if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with glory... will not the ministry of the Spirit have more glory?"
- Hebrews 7:18-19: "There is, then, a setting aside of a former commandment... for the law made nothing perfect, but a bringing in of a better hope does."
- Jeremiah 31:32: God states the New Covenant is not like the covenant He made with their fathers when He brought them out of Egypt (the Mosaic Covenant), "which they broke."
The Abrahamic Covenant Was Never Ended
The Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and unconditional. The Mosaic Law did not annul it but was a temporary addition (a "codicil") until Christ came. The New Covenant is essentially the fulfillment and extension of the Abrahamic promise to all nations.- Galatians 3:17: "This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void."
- Genesis 17:7: "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you... for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you."
- Hebrews 6:13-14: God swore by Himself to Abraham, promising to bless and multiply him, an oath that "cannot change, because it is impossible for God to lie."
- Galatians 3:29: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
The Davidic Covenant Was Never Ended
The Davidic Covenant guarantees an eternal throne for David’s lineage. Jesus, as the Messiah from David’s line, fulfills this promise by reigning forever, meaning the covenant is confirmed and perpetuated, not terminated.- 2 Samuel 7:16: "And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever."
- Luke 1:32-33: "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High... and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
- Acts 2:30: "Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne."
- Hebrews 1:8: Referring to the Son (Jesus), God says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
It starts on earth, but it begins when a person first believes in Jesus.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
This reference to Jeremiah 31 was relevant to the Hebrew Christian church, because it was already happening then.
You act as though we haven't already shared Bible verses with you countless times already about how God/Jesus will pour out His Spirit on them to transform their hearts. When this happens, they WILL BELIEVE IN JESUS. That's how ALL of us come to Jesus. If it wasn't for God and the Holy Spirit stirring in our hearts to give us our FAITH, we wouldn't have it either!
Matthew 16:15-17 -
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
--
So, while it was relevant then it will be relevant again when God/Jesus pours out His Spirit AGAIN on the house of Israel. God/Jesus is NOT done pouring out His Spirit on people on the earth.
--
Brother, that is a stronger argument than simply appealing to Deuteronomy 28, and I appreciate the distinction you're making.
I agree that Deuteronomy 30 contains conditions of repentance and obedience, and I agree that the New Covenant is superior to the Mosaic Covenant (Heb. 8:6).
Where I think the debate remains open is whether the New Testament reinterprets all land promises exclusively in spiritual terms.
You argue that any future restoration must be found in New Covenant promises. Fair enough.
But many would point to passages like Romans 11 and argue that God's future purposes for Israel are discussed there, not merely in the Old Testament.
My main question would be this: does the New Testament ever explicitly say that the land promises have been transformed into purely spiritual realities and can no longer have any geographical or national aspect?
I agree that physical descent from Abraham is not sufficient.
Jesus dismantles that assumption in John 8, and Paul repeatedly emphasizes faith.
However, it seems to me that you're asking dispensationalists to prove a future land restoration from the New Covenant while assuming that the New Covenant excludes such a restoration unless explicitly restated.
That's the point I would challenge.
To be clear, I am not taking sides here.
The real issue is not whether the New Covenant brings a deeper spiritual fulfillment. It clearly does.
The question is whether that spiritual fulfillment exhausts every aspect of God's promises to Israel, or whether some promises still await a future fulfillment.
That is where I think the discussion actually needs to focus.
The Davidic covenant establishes eternal kingship, not land promise.
God's promises were Abraham were not all everlasting, there were earthly promises too which were also unconditional.
Abram was to be shown the promised land, a great nation was to be made of him, he was to be the father of many nations, God would bless his friends and curse his enemies, his descendants would be slaves in Egypt 430 years, they would be delivered from Egypt and he would die at a good old age.
These promises were all made to Abram, not to anybody else, and God did all of them.
There were everlasting promises to Abraham too, although they were not everlasting in their immediate application but in the eternal application of them.
Circumcision for example was called an "everlasting covenant" (v.13) not suggesting that the flesh will live forever or that Abraham's descendants would keep doing that even in the new heavens and new earth, or even that they would be obliged to do it under the new covenant.
It is everlasting in its meaning, and that is circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:29).
The everlasting promised land has a meaning beyond the temporal earthly land as well.
Only saved by Jesus, born again by holy spirit, can inherent the kingdom of God.
There is no other way.
The future is in God's hand, not ours.
GOD did not tell Joseph brothers to sell him, and call that a righteous act.
God did not tell Judas to sell Jesus, and call that a righteous act.
God did not tell the crowd to stone stephan, and call that the righteous act.
God only tell us to follow the commandments, which is not murdering, stealing .....
Many today are saying they behave like Judas, and the jew leaders to crucify Jesus so that they are helping Jesus resurrection?
They are helping Israel state to murder, plunder, to help Jesus 2nd coming?
I think you're raising an important concern, and honestly it's a different issue than the land-promise debate itself.
Scripture certainly shows that God can sovereignly work through sinful human actions without approving those actions.
Joseph's brothers sinned in selling him, even though God used it for good (Gen. 50:20).
Judas sinned in betraying Christ, even though God used it to accomplish redemption.
Those who condemned and crucified Jesus were not performing a righteous act merely because God brought good out of it.
So I agree with your principle: God's prophetic purposes do not automatically justify human actions.
Where I would be careful is connecting that principle directly to the land-promise discussion.
Someone may believe God still has future purposes for Israel without believing that every action of the modern State of Israel is righteous. Those are separate questions.
The real issue is whether Scripture predicts some future role for Israel in God's redemptive plan.
Even if someone answers yes, it does not follow that he must therefore justify every military, political, or national action taken by Israel.
In other words:
God's purposes can be true.
Human beings can still sin.
Divine providence does not turn sinful acts into righteous acts.
I think that distinction is important.
Otherwise we risk doing the same thing people sometimes do with Judas, saying, "Because God used it, it must have been good." Scripture never reasons that way.
God's sovereignty and man's moral responsibility operate together, but they are not the same thing.
@Beekeeper and @OMC,
Remember what I spoke about earlier on how sometimes we need to take a single verse and pick it apart?
Here's another one worth considering...
Jeremiah 12:15 - And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
We know that the ones who have been "plucked" are the seed of Isaac & Jacob, however, since we see "every man" returning to his own heritage and every man returning to his own land, I don't think we can just assume that every man that is living on earth from a Gentile nation or returns to earth with Jesus are forced to go up to the temple during the Millennial Kingdom period.
The Bible mentions that it's the survivors from the nations that have gone up against Jerusalem to fight them in the past that are required to do so. The Bible lists specifically a handful of surrounding nations to Israel too. So, I think we need to look again to see who those might be.
Zechariah 14:16–19 — "Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the nations do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles, they will have no rain…"
Here are more:
Zechariah 8:22-23 - 22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. 23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Again, the above verse says many people, not all people. I'm not quite sure what to make of the "ten men" statement just yet.
In Zechariah 9, it's specific about what happens where:
1 The burden of the word of the Lord in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the Lord.
2 And Hamath also shall border thereby; Tyrus, and Zidon, though it be very wise.
3 And Tyrus did build herself a strong hold, and heaped up silver as the dust, and fine gold as the mire of the streets.
4 Behold, the Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire.
5 Ashkelon shall see it, and fear; Gaza also shall see it, and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.
6 And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.
7 And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite.
8 And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.
In the modern world today, those lands would all be located within current Israel, Syria, and Lebanon, which make up the promised land.
So, while I know it's a contention among a few here that anyone should have to go up to the temple or offer sacrifices, I think the Bible makes it clear who will or won't be. If Gentile nations are going up to the temple, it's not every single person in those nations either.
Here's something else we can learn from the past:
Historical precedent: Under the Old Covenant, Gentiles who worshipped alongside Israel were typically classified as ger toshav (sojourners/proselytes of the gate). They were permitted to observe festivals and enter certain areas of the temple, but they were not required to bring sacrifices — that obligation fell on Israelites.
I hope that helps some of you.
--
Remember what I spoke about earlier on how sometimes we need to take a single verse and pick it apart?
Here's another one worth considering...
Jeremiah 12:15 - And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
We know that the ones who have been "plucked" are the seed of Isaac & Jacob, however, since we see "every man" returning to his own heritage and every man returning to his own land, I don't think we can just assume that every man that is living on earth from a Gentile nation or returns to earth with Jesus are forced to go up to the temple during the Millennial Kingdom period.
The Bible mentions that it's the survivors from the nations that have gone up against Jerusalem to fight them in the past that are required to do so. The Bible lists specifically a handful of surrounding nations to Israel too. So, I think we need to look again to see who those might be.
Zechariah 14:16–19 — "Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the nations do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles, they will have no rain…"
Here are more:
- Isaiah 60:6 — "A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come; they shall bring gold and incense, and proclaim the praises of the LORD."
- Isaiah 60:9 — "The sea will give over its resources, and the nations will bring in their wealth… the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall be rendered for you."
- Isaiah 60:10 — "Instead of foreigners who oppressed you, their children will come as your servants…" (context of Egypt, Cush, Assyria submitting)
- Isaiah 60:11 — "The sons of your oppressors will come crouching to you… all those who reviled you will bow down at your feet. Tarshish and all its ships will bring your wealth to you…"
- Isaiah 18:7 — "In that day each man will throw away his idols… and will bring a gathering to the King of Zion in Jerusalem" (Cush/Ethiopia bringing tribute to Mount Zion).
- Isaiah 66:19–21 — "I will give them a sign among them, and I will send survivors from among them to the nations… to my holy mountain Jerusalem… They will bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD… And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD.
- Ezekiel 44:15–16 (for the Jewish side) — "Only the priests from the lineage of Zadok, who… did not go astray when the Israelites went astray, may minister before me."
Zechariah 8:22-23 - 22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. 23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Again, the above verse says many people, not all people. I'm not quite sure what to make of the "ten men" statement just yet.
In Zechariah 9, it's specific about what happens where:
1 The burden of the word of the Lord in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the Lord.
2 And Hamath also shall border thereby; Tyrus, and Zidon, though it be very wise.
3 And Tyrus did build herself a strong hold, and heaped up silver as the dust, and fine gold as the mire of the streets.
4 Behold, the Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire.
5 Ashkelon shall see it, and fear; Gaza also shall see it, and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.
6 And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.
7 And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite.
8 And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.
In the modern world today, those lands would all be located within current Israel, Syria, and Lebanon, which make up the promised land.
So, while I know it's a contention among a few here that anyone should have to go up to the temple or offer sacrifices, I think the Bible makes it clear who will or won't be. If Gentile nations are going up to the temple, it's not every single person in those nations either.
Here's something else we can learn from the past:
Historical precedent: Under the Old Covenant, Gentiles who worshipped alongside Israel were typically classified as ger toshav (sojourners/proselytes of the gate). They were permitted to observe festivals and enter certain areas of the temple, but they were not required to bring sacrifices — that obligation fell on Israelites.
I hope that helps some of you.
--