Obedience REQUIRED

[mailmandan]

Personally, yes.

Personally, yes to which statement?

Or conversion to Christianity.

No works demonstrates no faith and not faith demonstrates no conversion to Christianity.

None.

So, all ten are summed up in two?

You just said that obedience and good works were the fruit of salvation...so how do you figure one is using it to earn salvation?

Obedience/good works is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. (Ephesians 2:5-10) One is trying to earn or merit salvation when they try to turn the fruit of salvation into the root of salvation.

If anything, they simply manifest salvation.

That acts of obedience/good works manifest salvation means that acts of obedience/good works are the visible evidence of salvation but not the cause of salvation itself.

Cause of salvation: God’s grace, through faith in Christ, not works.
Role of works: Evidence, fruit, and evidence of salvation.
Order: Salvation > transformation > acts of obedience/good works.

Yes.
It wasnt true while Enoch walked with God, or during Elijah's life.
Or while Jesus walked th earth.

I imagine there were others with faith in the living God, who obeyed His demands.

Which does not mean they never sinned at all. You disagree with scripture.

One exception breaks the entire rule!
Not all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

ONLY JESUS CHRIST WAS WITHOUT SIN.

They believed.
Their belief will not garner them anythign but eternity in the lake of fire.

Because their belief (James 2:19) falls short of saving belief in Jesus Christ. (Acts 16:31)

Many professing Christians will suffer the same fate, unless they have a real turn from sin.

So, only those who lived sinless, perfect lives 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus Christ) will be saved?

Yep, showing that belief alone, is worthless.

These false prophets/bad trees that bear bad fruit showed they lacked saving belief in Jesus Christ. (Matthew 7:15-23; John 6:40)

That is enough proof for me to write that sinners don't actually believe in Him.
Where is their fear of the Lord?
They may even espouse belief, but having sin on them disqualifies them from being "in Him".

How is claiming to have no sin or have not sinned and failing to confess our sins represent fear of the Lord? John says such a person deceives themself and the truth is not in them and they make God a liar and His word is not in them. Suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness does not represent fear of the Lord.

Right, sinners are not known by God.

Saints are not classified as sinners because of the blood of Christ and not sinless perfection.

It reminds me of 1 John 2:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sinners don't know God.

Sinners are classified as unbelievers who do not know God. Saints are classified as believers who know God. What do you believe John meant by "keep" His commandments and which commandments?

It puts this thread in perspective too.
Why anyone would argue against obedeience to God, is beyond me.

I'm arguing against sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-10) and self-righteousness and not obedience to God. Big difference.

 

[mailmandan]

I glorify Him by keeping holy.
Those who want to trample the holy blood of Jesus, shed for us, will not survive the day of judgement.

You are sounding more and more like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others/treated others with contempt/looked down on others: 10 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Roger316]

The eternal security crowd always seems to be arguing for being able to remain in sin while claiming they are in right standing with the Lord while they are engaging in sinful behavior.

It's almost as if these folks want to keep living in sin or something. It's always odd to hear them arguing for sin. Weird.

What do you think John the Apostle meant by "If we deny our sin?"

 

[carbunculus]

That's a can of worms but yeah, I'm on board

Yeah I know but I've escaped many worm holes before today, I know what mean
But I've got a huge mill stone in my windmill just in case

 

[carbunculus]

The eternal security crowd always seems to be arguing for being able to remain in sin while claiming they are in right standing with the Lord while they are engaging in sinful behavior.

It's almost as if these folks want to keep living in sin or something. It's always odd to hear them arguing for sin. Weird.

I've never heard of an eternal security crowd before, and this was really just another silly billy comment I ignored yesterday, but having make belief crowds in your head and believing your in a battle against an organisation that doesn't really exist,. it is bordering on madness. But to have a crowd in your head that wants to fight this imaginary crowd of eternal security people. Says your definitely being influence by an unpleasant creature. Or your bonkers, but honestly the fact your falling for it suggests your an easy push over for satan. It's also bad because he's Got you doubting something that should be about peace and very sacred

 

[ScooterJackson]

That didn't answer my question.

You asked "How long have you been repentant; a non-sinner ?"
I said right when I got born again.

Are you looking for a detailed essay of the entire experience?
The Lord taught me from the begging that playing with sin was not going to work for Him.

 

[ScooterJackson]

A very close loved one who professes Christianity claims I am a hypocrite because I still sin, and spend a lot of time in my day reading His Word and pray to the 3 persons of the Holy Trinity.

What kind of sin are you doing that they have a problem with?

Our God is a consuming fire. Believers who come under discipline are in a worse state than if they never believed to begin with.

When a person is in a state that is worse than before they got born again that means they are lost once again and now have the knowledge that they should not be living in sin but yet they are doing it anyway.

 

[Churchgoer]

Obedience required.
Ok. Great.
Now would someone please explain to me their definition of obedience?
Obedience to what exactly?
To the Law?
The numerous commands of Christ?
How much obedience?
Total?
Partial?
Do the obedient get a day off, like a Sabbath Rest?

Love God and love neighbor.
10 commandments.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

I'll plant what I can then move on. God causes the growth so yeah. almost done here.

Oh, so you are a sower?

 

[ScooterJackson]

The scripture says a persons work can be totally burned up yet still saved.

Yes, that portion of scripture is dealing with a person's ministry works in this life where if all the things did for the Lord failed that does not disqualify them from entering God's Kingdom. Other scriptures tell us there are things that can and will disqualify people from entering His Kingdom.

Some in their defense of sinful behavior claim that 1 Corinthians 3:15 is saying even if a person were to live in sin they will still be saved. That is not true. They make it sounds like God's warnings are meaningless which is exactly what the enemy is trying to accomplish with the line of thinking he's gotten people to accept.

We now are judged on our works

Correct and if one walks after the flesh they are in sin and are separated from the Lord because they have turned from Him having denied Him in order to walk after the flesh which is living in sin.

Romans 8:13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

2 Timothy 2:12 - If we deny Him, He also will deny us

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So, two questions for you.
1. How do you account for someone having all their works burned up yet still saved?
2. Why are you judging on the basis of sin when Christ has dealt with our sin?

#1 already answered above

God's kingdom functions on seedtime and harvest.
Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also) - And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground.
Gal 6 - God is not mocked, what we sow is what we reap.

After a person is born again if they sow to the flesh (turn away from the Lord) then they become separated from the Lord by their own choosing (2 Timothy 2:12). God does not accept sinful behavior. He can't because there's no darkness in Him and sin is walking in darkness having turned away from the Lord refusing to be led by His Spirit.

This is the whole problem with modern day churches and preachers is that they are telling people that living in sin is a non issue now. It is not. The wages of sin is still death which is speaking of spiritual death as in being separated from the Lord. Some claim it's physical death but it's not as we see all these people living in sin and they are still alive walking around.

The wages of sin is not to be rewarded with Heaven. That's the devil flipping the script tricking people in to believing the exact opposite of what the Lord said. He did this in the garden and he's doing it now like with Romans 8:13 where he's telling people if they live after the flesh they will not die spiritually and be separated from the Lord. That's the opposite of what the Lord said:

Romans 8:13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If we choose to walk in the flesh which is walking in sin, then we are walking in death which is not abiding in Christ.
If we choose to walk in obedience after the Spirit then we are walking in life which is abiding in Christ

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Matthew 13:41,42 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

No condemnation can only be found when we abide in Christ in obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Anybody making the claim that we can walk after the flesh and still be righteous is claiming the Lord accepts sin making Him out to be a minister of sin

Galatians 2:17 - But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

This is the deception con the devil has ruin on mankind to get people to sow to the flesh turning away from the Lord while still believing they are in right standing with the Lord.

1 John 1:9 is telling us that sin makes one unrighteous which is why we are told to confess our sin so we can be cleansed of all unrighteous. Some seem to think 1 John 1:9 is not true. The enemy has tricked many in to believing they are still in right standing with the Lord as they continue in sin.

That's not true because God cannot be mocked, what we sow is what we reap and if we sow to the flesh we are turning away from the Lord in order to do so. No two ways about it.

The bigger question is why are so many defending sin?

 

[ScooterJackson]

Oh, so you are a sower?

Everyone sows and reaps

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also) - And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground.

 

[Tolbar]

What kind of sin are you doing that they have a problem with?

No specific sin, only that I am not perfect.
A role of the Holy Spirit is to be our counselor, to show us our transgressions so we can repent.
I do not purposely hide known sin from God, I confess and repent (Turn from).
The Holy Spirit shows me the way from it.
To try to hide or continue to transgress within that sin would be open rebellion against God.

Jesus is there to pick us back up when we stumble and fall, as we all do.

This person is a very, very close family who professes Christianity.
Yet they don't believe faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, keeps both RC and traditional pagan idols and refuses to talk about Christianity. Immediately shuts down all conversation or mention.
They claim I am wrong and full of pride for knowing the Gospel of Christ is absolute truth.

 

[Magenta]

Ezekiel 36 v 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[ScooterJackson]

No specific sin, only that I am not perfect.

There are sins not unto death (1 John 5:16) such as making mistakes like forgetting to do something, etc
The things God calls sin in His Word are not mistakes and are things people have to turn away from Him to do.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light then the Lord automatically cleanses us of sins not unto death (mistakes) so the Lord is treating and accepting those walking after the Spirit as though they were perfect because they are abiding in Him.

2 Corinthians 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A role of the Holy Spirit is to be our counselor, to show us our transgressions so we can repent.
I do not purposely hide known sin from God, I confess and repent (Turn from).
The Holy Spirit shows me the way from it.
To try to hide or continue to transgress within that sin would be open rebellion against God.

Wow! You are way ahead of most Christians today in understanding this. PTL!

This person is a very, very close family who professes Christianity.
Yet they don't believe faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, keeps both RC and traditional pagan idols and refuses to talk about Christianity. Immediately shuts down all conversation or mention.
They claim I am wrong and full of pride for knowing the Gospel of Christ is absolute truth.

Yeah, I know some catholics. They are a freaky bunch for sure.
Especially on their so called day of the dead celebrations with their seances

Ask them to show from the Bible where Jesus or His Apostles ever prayed the rosary or told anybody to pray the rosary

They have to admit they don't go by the Bible but instead they go by the religious traditions of men which Jesus said causes the Word to be of no effect - Mark 7:13 tells us that following traditions of men cause invalidates God's word where they are concerned

2 John 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I'd image you have circled the wagons with this person numerous times and now it just leads to arguing. The best we I've found to end the conversation is to say "well, when the future gets here we'll see how it all works out" which is a statement everyone can agree with even atheists.

Most catholics are reprobate so there's no since in wasting time talking to them any further. All we can do is continue to pray the Lord will help them see the error of their ways and let the person know you're praying for them.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Now in regard to 1 John 1:9, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

If someone says they sin (present tense) then they don't deceive us since we know that it is the Spirit of their Father that speaks in them. Matthew 10:20

If they say that they have not sinned, (past tense) they make him a liar because they said that they sin.

 

[ScooterJackson]

If they say that they have not sinned, (past tense) they make him a liar because they said that they sin.

Only the gnostics claim they never sinned.
They'll say their body did some sin but they themselves had nothing to do with that.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Only the gnostics claim they never sinned.

Only people that remember that they been purged from their old sins say they never sinned.
2 Peter 1:8-9

They'll say their body did some sin but they themselves had nothing to do with that.

If they had been purged from their old sins they would know who purged them from their old sins.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Only people that remember that they been purged from their old sins say they never sinned.
2 Peter 1:8-9

Not necessarily. Depends on the person.
I don't recall running across hard anybody that ever claimed they have never sinned at all.
Now on the internet I have seen people claim they never sinned ever. They were gnostics.

Their fake doctrine is alive and well among Christians who follow false teachers as many claim they are like the guy in Romans 7 and they just cannot stop their flesh from doing sin and they claim to still be saved. It's an excuse used frequently to justify living in sin claiming it's not possible to stop sinning

 

[pinebeach]

God judges by His Word which is what I'm talking about.
The reformed are pushing carnal religious doctrine not found in God's Word.

Your one trick pony is lame.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Your one trick pony is lame.

You know, I don't consider the Lord and the Truth of His Word as a one trick pony
Maybe others do, but I don't.