-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I
Krisbrian
You Said: "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
....then it becomes a lie. There is no way of getting around that. Either Abraham actually said these things or its a lie.
You Dah Man!
You Said: "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
....then it becomes a lie. There is no way of getting around that. Either Abraham actually said these things or its a lie.
You Dah Man!
L
The parable is not describing what happens immediately after death.
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Matthew 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Thought Question: Sometimes it is important not only to read what a passage says but also what it does not say. Does this passage use any of the following words (in bold type):
“Immediately after he died,” (Lk. 16:23) “His body was buried,” (Lk. 16:23) “his soul was in everlasting torments,” (Lk. 16:23) “send the soul of Lazarus,” (Lk. 16:24) “being in the everlasting torments of hades,” (Lk. 16:23) “in this eternal flame,” (Lk. 16:24) “his soul is comforted.” (Lk. 16:25).
The sobering fact is that the words “soul” and “everlasting are missing!
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Matthew 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Thought Question: Sometimes it is important not only to read what a passage says but also what it does not say. Does this passage use any of the following words (in bold type):
“Immediately after he died,” (Lk. 16:23) “His body was buried,” (Lk. 16:23) “his soul was in everlasting torments,” (Lk. 16:23) “send the soul of Lazarus,” (Lk. 16:24) “being in the everlasting torments of hades,” (Lk. 16:23) “in this eternal flame,” (Lk. 16:24) “his soul is comforted.” (Lk. 16:25).
The sobering fact is that the words “soul” and “everlasting are missing!
This is such willful ignorance on your part to dismiss truth in a parable and accuse the Lord of just trying to make a point. You refuse to acknowledge truth in that parable and you do it willfully to protect your understanding about the dead. As believers we don't do things like that, it hard enough in some cases to come to the knowledge of the truth but to do it willfully in an obvious parable, you can't be excused for that. That is error on purpose.
The scenarios He gives in the parables are things that could actually happen...otherwise they wouldn't be relatable to truth.
Even if you want to still believe it is a parable (which Krisbrian refuted that idea without a doubt), it doesn't change that even parables are based on truth, meaning that Jesus clearly believed and taught that there is a body and a spirit, and the spirit is conscious after death.
When the disciples saw Jesus after the resurrection, what did they say??
Luke 24:36-37
"Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit."
They thought they were seeing Jesus' spirit!!
What did Jesus say about that???
"I've taught you for 3 1/2 years...and you should know that a spirit isn't conscious after it has departed the body....therefore I can't be a spirit. This proves to you that I am not a spirit and am actually standing in front of you right now" ?
....not even close
He identified the truth of their statement and confirmed that they could actually be seeing a spirit (which is obviously conscious apart from the body)...but He went on to say that He is not a spirit, and the proof was that He had flesh and bones (a spirit does not have flesh and bones).
Luk 24:39-40
"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet."
You want to call it a parable...that's fine, it doesn't change the fact that it was spoken from true pretenses and Jesus and His disciples believed those pretenses and maintained and taught those beliefs that a spirit IS conscious apart from the body. You see it in the New Testament teachings in the letters as well.
If people want to understand scripture apart from Jesus' teachings then so be it...but I think what they really need to do base their understanding of scripture from Jesus as their first and primary reference.
After all He's the one with the true doctrine. Hear it from Him:
John 7:16-17
16 Jesus [fn] answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority]."'
The fact is that Jesus believed and taught that the spirit is conscious apart from the body, so I guess that the main issue really is...if Jesus was actually speaking the doctrine of God, or if He was speaking on His own authority.
He was speaking the doctrine of God of course.
*I copy and pasted some of this from a previous address to you, because I think you overlooked it somehow and you are still leaning on the idea that "if it is a parable therefore the pretenses in the parable can be dismissed as false, but that is the farthest thing from the truth*
Last edited:
Excuse me?
Abraham is DEAD. He will be raised at the first resurrection. Jesus told a parable to make the point that even though a person was raised, people would still not believe. Read v31. He was right.
You are the one forcing your beliefs into scripture to make it say what you already believe, that dead people aren't really dead.
Abraham is DEAD. He will be raised at the first resurrection. Jesus told a parable to make the point that even though a person was raised, people would still not believe. Read v31. He was right.
You are the one forcing your beliefs into scripture to make it say what you already believe, that dead people aren't really dead.
K
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
L
The spirit is the breath of life
Genesis 2:7
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Man was formed of the dust, the dust returns to the earth. God breathed into man the breath of life, the spirit returns to God. Notice that Genesis says man became a soul it does not say man was given a soul so then a soul is:-
Body + Breath of life = A Soul
Genesis 2:7
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Man was formed of the dust, the dust returns to the earth. God breathed into man the breath of life, the spirit returns to God. Notice that Genesis says man became a soul it does not say man was given a soul so then a soul is:-
Body + Breath of life = A Soul
K
Jesus's is saying not only is there a resurrection but they are alive now. God didn't say "I was the God of Abraham" or "I will be the God of Abraham after the resurrection" .....God said I AM the God of Abraham....A current and present condition. So, if he is not God of the dead and he said "I am the God of Abraham" which is a present condition, it can only mean one thing....he is alive.
K
This proves beyond any doubt what so ever that there is consciousness outside of the body. If it were not so then Paul would have never said "whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell". He would have known for an absolute fact that he was in the body if there is no life or consciousness of the spirit outside of the body. Some people just cant see the obvious truth because of blind loyalty to a particular doctrine.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
L
Please explain this verse using the Bible:-
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
K
Here is the bible speaking and disproving soul sleep.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Adam's body became alive when God formed Adam's spirit from within him.
Zec 12:1 "...the LORD...forms the spirit of man within him:"
Jam 2:26 "...the body without the spirit is dead..."
The soul cannot just simply be the combination of the body and spirit....otherwise men could kill the soul
Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Killing the body does not kill the soul....
The soul departs the body at death....where did the soul go??
Gen 35:18-19
And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; [fn] but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that [is], Bethlehem).
So, if our spirits go to God and our souls depart also....maybe it's more that our spirit and soul are what's connected more closely than.....either of those to the body.
spirits have a mind (they think), will (they do), and emotion (they rejoice)....they also have a body (just not flesh and bones- Luke 24:39)- consider the angels. They are spirits. God is spirit- He's plenty conscious.
So...the dust (our physical body) goes back to dust and our Spirit returns to God.
Do you think God is only in one place??
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Everyone's spirit can return to God and end up in different places. God isn't just in one location.
This formula you gave...Body + Breath of life = A Soul... is not adding up.
.
Zec 12:1 "...the LORD...forms the spirit of man within him:"
Jam 2:26 "...the body without the spirit is dead..."
The soul cannot just simply be the combination of the body and spirit....otherwise men could kill the soul
Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Killing the body does not kill the soul....
The soul departs the body at death....where did the soul go??
Gen 35:18-19
And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; [fn] but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that [is], Bethlehem).
So, if our spirits go to God and our souls depart also....maybe it's more that our spirit and soul are what's connected more closely than.....either of those to the body.
spirits have a mind (they think), will (they do), and emotion (they rejoice)....they also have a body (just not flesh and bones- Luke 24:39)- consider the angels. They are spirits. God is spirit- He's plenty conscious.
So...the dust (our physical body) goes back to dust and our Spirit returns to God.
Do you think God is only in one place??
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Everyone's spirit can return to God and end up in different places. God isn't just in one location.
This formula you gave...Body + Breath of life = A Soul... is not adding up.
.
Last edited: