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I
2knowhim
YOU SAID: The Rich Man and Lazarus is part of a 5 part Parable, about the unprofitable servant, Which in this case was The scribes and the pharisees and the Religious of His Day. notice the color of the clothing on the rich man, and The name of Lazarus, is eleazar, who was a servant of Abraham, who was a Gentile.
Who was a faithful servant. He told them they would see those coming from the east and the west, north and south and sit down in the kingdom while they themselves cast out.
If you believe the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not true...then first solve the issue of how Jesus is not a Liar...after that, then move forward with what you discovered.
Jesus would never be so stupid or careless as to mention the name and quote a known dead person if He believed and wanted the Church to accept soul sleep as truth. He would never put Himself in such a position to be labled a Liar...and that's exactly what Jesus is if the doctrine of souls sleep is true...there is no way around it.
YOU SAID: The Rich Man and Lazarus is part of a 5 part Parable, about the unprofitable servant, Which in this case was The scribes and the pharisees and the Religious of His Day. notice the color of the clothing on the rich man, and The name of Lazarus, is eleazar, who was a servant of Abraham, who was a Gentile.
Who was a faithful servant. He told them they would see those coming from the east and the west, north and south and sit down in the kingdom while they themselves cast out.
If you believe the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not true...then first solve the issue of how Jesus is not a Liar...after that, then move forward with what you discovered.
Jesus would never be so stupid or careless as to mention the name and quote a known dead person if He believed and wanted the Church to accept soul sleep as truth. He would never put Himself in such a position to be labled a Liar...and that's exactly what Jesus is if the doctrine of souls sleep is true...there is no way around it.
Because that is what the word of God says. To say anything else than God's word is a lie.
I believe that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is just that a story/parable. If you would like to know what a parable is; see following: 1. a short story that uses familiar events to illustrate a religious or ethical point
Context of the Rich Man and Lazarus - The Pharisees traditions were overriding god's word - in v14 they derided Jesus v15 highly esteem your traditions but they are an abomination in the sight of God v17 through your vain traditions you would make the law void and of none effect v19 Jesus at once goes on to give another example from the traditions of the Pharisees. Then he proceeds to give an example of their doctrine to show how their traditions made void the truth of God using their very words as an argument against themselves and showing by his own words which he puts as Abraham's words(v29,30) that all these traditions were contrary to God's truth.
The Pharisees taught that the dead could go to and communicate with the living - the Lord declares this is impossible and that none can go "from the dead" but by resurrection "neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead". That is the lesson taught through this parable.
I
SHROOM2
I SAID: "sure do if they use me, you, or any other historical figure in that story and say that we said something that we never said....that would be lying...right?
YOU SAID: "If he is telling a story to make a point, not at all."
That's why Jesus never used names in His parables. To protect the integrity of Himself and the story. Names are not important in a parable because you want the listener to focus on the moral point of the story. When names are introduced in any story then it ceases from being a parable, because now the words spoken and actions done by the characters named are just as important as point of the story.
If you use ficticious names and quotes in a story it's usually called a "Fabel" or a "Tall Tale"...not a parable. If you use actual historical figures in a story and quote them as Jesus did and give no explanation as Jesus did not... then that's simply called lying.
Since Jesus did quote a known dead historical figure with no explanation...then we must accept it as historical fact...because He most certainly did not tell "Fables" or "Tall Tales"...and He definitely isn't a Liar.
I think the only one that is not understanding this, is you.
He is not a liar by any means. Because we don't understand a parable doesn't make Him a liar, that is Ridiculous .
When Jesus talks about cutting off your hand if it offend you, you have a literal hand, so does that mean we are to take it literal?
I
PEACFULBELIEVER
YOU SAID:
I believe that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is just that a story/parable. If you would like to know what a parable is; see following: 1. a short story that uses familiar events to illustrate a religious or ethical point
Do you really believe that if I didn't know the definition of a parable that I would make this argument against soul sleep?
Notice the definition says FAMILIAR EVENTS! Not FAMILIAR FIGURES!...The Bible says to let everything be established by 2 or more witnesses correct?....Then show me in the Bible where Jesus uses names in any other parable.
Again I'm not trying to change your opinion because I know how much this docreine means to you...But those that are searching for the truth can read my responses and find it.
YOU SAID:
I believe that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is just that a story/parable. If you would like to know what a parable is; see following: 1. a short story that uses familiar events to illustrate a religious or ethical point
Do you really believe that if I didn't know the definition of a parable that I would make this argument against soul sleep?
Notice the definition says FAMILIAR EVENTS! Not FAMILIAR FIGURES!...The Bible says to let everything be established by 2 or more witnesses correct?....Then show me in the Bible where Jesus uses names in any other parable.
Again I'm not trying to change your opinion because I know how much this docreine means to you...But those that are searching for the truth can read my responses and find it.
I
2knowhim
YOU SAID:I think the only one that is not understanding this, is you.
He is not a liar by any means. Because we don't understand a parable doesn't make Him a liar, that is Ridiculous .
When Jesus talks about cutting off your hand if it offend you, you have a literal hand, so does that mean we are to take it literal? This is a question for another thread...You should start it.
My Bible says "My people are destroyed from the lack of knowledge." It also says "In all thy getting, get an understanding."
Your belief in souls sleep makes Jesus a Liar..because He said that Abrahm spoke at a time when soul sleep says that Abraham was dead and knew nothing. Jesus made a bold statement with no explanation other than the fact that He was telling the truth. Now....Do you believe Jesus told the truth about Abraham?...or do you believe Jesus lied about Abraham?...Its your choice.
YOU SAID:I think the only one that is not understanding this, is you.
He is not a liar by any means. Because we don't understand a parable doesn't make Him a liar, that is Ridiculous .
When Jesus talks about cutting off your hand if it offend you, you have a literal hand, so does that mean we are to take it literal? This is a question for another thread...You should start it.
My Bible says "My people are destroyed from the lack of knowledge." It also says "In all thy getting, get an understanding."
Your belief in souls sleep makes Jesus a Liar..because He said that Abrahm spoke at a time when soul sleep says that Abraham was dead and knew nothing. Jesus made a bold statement with no explanation other than the fact that He was telling the truth. Now....Do you believe Jesus told the truth about Abraham?...or do you believe Jesus lied about Abraham?...Its your choice.
L
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Matthew 24:31
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice that the text in Luke does not say he immediately went to heaven after he died But, was carried by angels. This does not happen till Jesus returns.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (lead away) (G71) with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Matthew 24:31
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice that the text in Luke does not say he immediately went to heaven after he died But, was carried by angels. This does not happen till Jesus returns.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (lead away) (G71) with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
God made and formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7). The breath that God breathed in became the spirit of man, which is the candle of the Lord (Prov 20:27, 18:28), giving life to the soul. When sin entered into Adam it extinguished that candle, which God gave to man and the human soul corrupted by sin took over with the desires of the flesh expressed in the functions of the human body. After the fall of Adam, you have the soul dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13) and the body is providing the clothes for the soul as the outward man (2Cor 4:16).
The soul is what needs to be quickened or made alive and this outward man (our body) is what is perishing or decaying by growing old and getting ready someday for the grave and we try to do everything humanly possible to preserve that part of us (1Thes 5:23) to live longer and be healthier. The body is reaping the effects of sin that has corrupted the soul of man. However, the inner man, that has been redeemed, is that part of man that is being renewed day by day through the word and doctrine and through the Spirit. You have to admit that the scriptures do divide man into different parts and deals with them specifically. To ignore that would be abnegation or willful ignorance on our part.
Because of sin the soul is spiritually dead and needs to be quickended and made alive by God through the word and the Spirit that God provides through the redemption that is in His Son that quickeneth the dead (Rom 4:17, Jn 6:63), so that man can become quickened in his soul through his human spirit (1Cor 15:45), Even his human mortal body can experience measures of being quickened by the Spirit (Rom 8:11). Remember the prodigal son in (Lk 15:24:32) when the father testified that he was dead but is alive a gain. Think about it, who knows God may even quicken some of you.
The soul is what needs to be quickened or made alive and this outward man (our body) is what is perishing or decaying by growing old and getting ready someday for the grave and we try to do everything humanly possible to preserve that part of us (1Thes 5:23) to live longer and be healthier. The body is reaping the effects of sin that has corrupted the soul of man. However, the inner man, that has been redeemed, is that part of man that is being renewed day by day through the word and doctrine and through the Spirit. You have to admit that the scriptures do divide man into different parts and deals with them specifically. To ignore that would be abnegation or willful ignorance on our part.
Because of sin the soul is spiritually dead and needs to be quickended and made alive by God through the word and the Spirit that God provides through the redemption that is in His Son that quickeneth the dead (Rom 4:17, Jn 6:63), so that man can become quickened in his soul through his human spirit (1Cor 15:45), Even his human mortal body can experience measures of being quickened by the Spirit (Rom 8:11). Remember the prodigal son in (Lk 15:24:32) when the father testified that he was dead but is alive a gain. Think about it, who knows God may even quicken some of you.
You said when 'I believed', so who is the 'I' in your believing? Is it the spirit, the soul, or the body? You believed in your heart unto righteousness and that God raised Christ from the dead. Where is the heart located? You and every man, woman and child has a mind, emotions, volition, conscience and a conscious capacity that is either self=conscious or God-conscious. These make who we are and belong to what, to our spirit, our soul or our body? You need to decide these things for yourself and be convinced in your mind and heart.
They make up YOU, as a PERSON.
Unsaved people are spiritually dead. They have no spirit. But they sure as heck still have a body energized by soul. Soul is not a separate part of you that lives on after the body dies. It is simply that which gives life to the body. Animals have soul.
Gen 1:21) And God created great whales, and every living creature [nephesh, soul] that moveth,
Gen 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh, soul].
Soul is not some mystical part of you that flies away when your body dies. When you die, you are dead. Your body will rot, the soul simply dies, and your holy spirit (for those who have it) returns to God.
People do not live on after they die. This is why the hope of resurrection is such a huge deal.
Unsaved people are spiritually dead. They have no spirit. But they sure as heck still have a body energized by soul. Soul is not a separate part of you that lives on after the body dies. It is simply that which gives life to the body. Animals have soul.
Gen 1:21) And God created great whales, and every living creature [nephesh, soul] that moveth,
Gen 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh, soul].
Soul is not some mystical part of you that flies away when your body dies. When you die, you are dead. Your body will rot, the soul simply dies, and your holy spirit (for those who have it) returns to God.
People do not live on after they die. This is why the hope of resurrection is such a huge deal.
ME - I - believed in my heart:
1) the heart; a) that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life; b) denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life; 1) the vigour and sense of physical life; 2) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours; b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c) of the will and character; d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions; c) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate
The spirit, soul, & body make up the whole person. The body was formed, the soul was made when God breathed into Adam the breath of life. The soul is nothing more and nothing less than that which gives life to a person's body. So when I first believed I was body and soul. AFTER I believed - I was born again with incorruptible seed from God - hence spirit was created in me.
My soul is not what needed to be quickened or made alive - I was already alive.
1) the heart; a) that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life; b) denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life; 1) the vigour and sense of physical life; 2) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours; b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c) of the will and character; d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions; c) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate
The spirit, soul, & body make up the whole person. The body was formed, the soul was made when God breathed into Adam the breath of life. The soul is nothing more and nothing less than that which gives life to a person's body. So when I first believed I was body and soul. AFTER I believed - I was born again with incorruptible seed from God - hence spirit was created in me.
My soul is not what needed to be quickened or made alive - I was already alive.
G
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Peace to all those on this thread, yet another of my interventions to state the arguments of commas placed where, there, or, there, LOL, or, capitlized letters go where, Spirit, spirit?, or, oh, how you all try to speak as God would will you , I pray for your peace in your heart for all you say of belief, wanting it so, for in 'it' you will find God, and, no, sorry, to break the news to you, but you will not necessarily find understanding.
Understanding, of course, can come of your said claims, falsely said (or not), if you desire to know and God gives you the discernment
But, do not base your salvation and faith in a prop display of words interpreted by mere men , as you (and I) all be.
But, base your salvation and beliefs in Christ, who gives us the peace that passeth all understanding when we CANNOT, no matter how hard we try, persuade fellow beievers to doctrine as we see it .
Peace, Christ bros, and sis'
Philipians 4:7
1 Cor. 10:5
John 14:27
Ephesisns 3:19
Peace to all those on this thread, yet another of my interventions to state the arguments of commas placed where, there, or, there, LOL, or, capitlized letters go where, Spirit, spirit?, or, oh, how you all try to speak as God would will you , I pray for your peace in your heart for all you say of belief, wanting it so, for in 'it' you will find God, and, no, sorry, to break the news to you, but you will not necessarily find understanding.
Understanding, of course, can come of your said claims, falsely said (or not), if you desire to know and God gives you the discernment
But, do not base your salvation and faith in a prop display of words interpreted by mere men , as you (and I) all be. But, base your salvation and beliefs in Christ, who gives us the peace that passeth all understanding when we CANNOT, no matter how hard we try, persuade fellow beievers to doctrine as we see it .
Peace, Christ bros, and sis'
Philipians 4:7
1 Cor. 10:5
John 14:27
Ephesisns 3:19
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, I absolutely agree with you, I think, on every point if I'm understanding you correctly.
You had asked.....where was that life deposited in you and what part of you was redeemed?
I understand The Life of Christ to be deposited in our spirit, Because He is Spirit. He is quickening (making alive) our Soul which is in need of Redemption.
So the part I highlighted is exactly the way I see it, am I understanding it the same as you?
G
----
Peace to all those on this thread, yet another of my interventions to state the arguments of commas placed where, there, or, there, LOL, or, capitlized letters go where, Spirit, spirit?, or, oh, how you all try to speak as God would will you , I pray for your peace in your heart for all you say of belief, wanting it so, for in 'it' you will find God, and, no, sorry, to break the news to you, but you will not necessarily find understanding.
Understanding, of course, can come of your said claims, falsely said (or not), if you desire to know and God gives you the discernment But, do not base your salvation and faith in a prop display of words interpreted by mere men , as you (and I) all be.
But, base your salvation and beliefs in Christ, who gives us the peace that passeth all understanding when we CANNOT, no matter how hard we try, persuade fellow beievers to doctrine as we see it .
Peace, Christ bros, and sis'
Philipians 4:7
1 Cor. 10:5
John 14:27
Ephesisns 3:19
Peace to all those on this thread, yet another of my interventions to state the arguments of commas placed where, there, or, there, LOL, or, capitlized letters go where, Spirit, spirit?, or, oh, how you all try to speak as God would will you , I pray for your peace in your heart for all you say of belief, wanting it so, for in 'it' you will find God, and, no, sorry, to break the news to you, but you will not necessarily find understanding.
Understanding, of course, can come of your said claims, falsely said (or not), if you desire to know and God gives you the discernment
But, do not base your salvation and faith in a prop display of words interpreted by mere men , as you (and I) all be. But, base your salvation and beliefs in Christ, who gives us the peace that passeth all understanding when we CANNOT, no matter how hard we try, persuade fellow beievers to doctrine as we see it .
Peace, Christ bros, and sis'
Philipians 4:7
1 Cor. 10:5
John 14:27
Ephesisns 3:19
Peace