What is the salvation process? Believe. Baptize. RECEIVE !

[feedm3]

I've read all of your posts and it just doesn't wash with scripture. Like I said, I'm not angry because I have been where you are. I too thought I had to defend God's honor against those who would dare teach that God limits His slavation to those whom He chooses. I thought it was a teaching that made God unfair. And then, slowly on, I started to see how fallen and evil mankind is, and that if God didn't move in a person's heart, they would never believe and trust in Him for salvation. Indeed, they would not even want anything to do with God. We were all like Adam and Eve fleeing from the presence of God. Remember how Jeremiah said "man's heart is desperately wicked", and how God needs to give us "a heart of flesh in place of our heart of stone."
I pray that God makes these things clearer and clearer to you. I have said some things to you that were unkind and wrong, and I apologize. I know that you are only speaking of what you think the truth is. I get overly zealous sometimes and say things I ought not to say.
God bless, my friend. I am too happy right now to do anything but thank God for His free and wonderful grace in Christ Jesus!!!!

Tom

Hey man I am right their with you on that. We all get a little over passionate at time. I know I do and have with you and I am sorry for that. thanks for reminding me.

As for your view, I cant see how anyone really believes that. It might sound good on the surface, but the root of the doctrine is very far from bibllical teaching.
I see how some can see predestination in the sense you do by some passages that sound that way to a novice. But a deeper study shows, God is just, fair, loving, yet to be feared greatly.

His plan is in His son, it is by his word we can know his will. It is through his will we are saved, and only through his will. Yet he wants those who will put him above themselves, adn the world and the lusts therof. that is why we have freedom of choice.

If ye love me keep my commands - Jn 14:15, only way to show him we love him is by choosing him and making him first in our lives. I do appreciate the discussion. thanks

 

[cfultz3]

Feedme and Tom,

Thank you both for answering. Both answers were in a zealousness for the Truth. Ponder with me for a moment if you would, could it be that the word "elect" is meant towards the Christians. For the mere fact that we, because the Jews rejected God's salvational plan, were "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the means of sanctification of the Spirit for obedience and for the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". ---1pet 1:2

And if that is the case, then whosoever shall believe, Jew or Gentile, then they become a part of those who were chosen "elected", that is, become one who is a follower of Christ, a Christian? Seeing that a Christian is chosen to receive salvation based on faith and not the Law?


What do you two think?

 

[feedm3]

Feedme and Tom,

Thank you both for answering. Both answers were in a zealousness for the Truth. Ponder with me for a moment if you would, could it be that the word "elect" is meant towards the Christians. For the mere fact that we, because the Jews rejected God's salvational plan, were "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the means of sanctification of the Spirit for obedience and for the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". ---1pet 1:2

I would not disagree with this. The elect are the one who did not reject Christ, even among the Jews. When Christ warned of the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24 he said "the days would be shortened because of the elects sake(those who did not reject Him)". In secular history, no Christians died in AD 70, they apparently escaped to Pella heeding Christ's warnigs.

And if that is the case, then whosoever shall believe, Jew or Gentile, then they become a part of those who were chosen "elected", that is, become one who is a follower of Christ, a Christian? Seeing that a Christian is chosen to receive salvation based on faith and not the Law?

And yes to this as well, salvation is based on faith (not belief alone - faith is an evidence not a thought Heb 11:1) and not from the Law (the law of Moses Col 2:14), but faith is seen in adherence to the law of Christ (Gal 6:2).

Our choices show where are heart is, in the world, or focused on the eternal. God's promise to Abraham is that through the Messiah, all nations of the earth would be blessed. Are they?
Yes, because not matter what race you are Jew or Gentile, you have the ability upon hearing the word to become a child of God. If this choice was not ours, then all nations would not be blessed, because all nations would not have this ability. The blessing is the ability to receive God's grace. If this ability does not really exist, the grace is not really grace, in that it has not appeared unto all men. Or it has appeared unto all men, but is not in the reach of all men, and would seem to be more of a taunt then a blessing, and gift from the almighty.

Titus 2:11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

When this passage is read or preached, it is meant to give relief to all who know they are not living right, it is to give hope, in that all can become a child of God, it meant to motivate even the vilest of sinners that there is a way, a way made by through his precious son.
If only certain people have the ability to receive this grace, then this passage has no power.

 

[Tombo]

I would have to disagree because in Romans 9:24 God speaks of the elect as " vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

The true Israel of God is made up of national Jews and Gentiles.
God bless.

Tom

 

[cfultz3]

Thank you both to your quick response to the pondering question

 

[feedm3]

Thank you both to your quick response to the pondering question

Your welcome have a good night

 

[GreenNnice]

Blessed assurance, speaking in Love will win so many to Christ, God bless you all for passionate, poignant response, sharpening each other, divinely appointed , how blessed is the discussion of the elect, those who believe and obey Him

Cee, beautiful extrapolation. Feed, Tombro, beautiful conversation. God bless you in your willingness to follow. Fruit beared......

Edit: hislastwalk, keep the faith, for a young one you carry much good of God inside, and, Truth. Those to be blessed, many, many, to come as you follow He

Tombro, cee, feed, never let God of His words to you for the many

=====
I was blessed, thank you.

 

[cfultz3]

I would have to disagree because in Romans 9:24 God speaks of the elect as " vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

The true Israel of God is made up of national Jews and Gentiles.
God bless.

Tom

Yes brother, that is what I am saying. But if that was not understood, my apologies. Certainly, the elect was prepared beforehand for glory, because God foreknew the Jews would betray their Savior. So, God prepared a particular people for Himself. They who would be saved according to faith, be it Jew or Gentile.

 

[cfultz3]

Greeny,

You went a little wild with that like button. Love you my Brother. That made me laugh.

 

[GreenNnice]

Greeny,

You went a little wild with that like button. Love you my Brother. That made me laugh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to you, but not the Bible. You do not understand baptism, because if is a forced conclusion you hold to advocate a certian doctrine.

No my friend it is you who do not understand baptism. It is a transliteration, not a translation of a greek word, thus we must take the greek interpretation not the forced english interpretation.

Baptism does not mean water. nor does iut have water anywhere in its definition. it means to be immersed or placed into something. It is a verb. When it says you are baptized into something, it literally means you were placed into that thing.

Baptized into body means just that, we were immersed into the body. No water is involved.

your reading like your religious teaching has taught you, and not how a greek speaking person would have read and understood it.

Physical water and Phyical bapitism are no different? YEa and, of course not, you need physical water to be baptized.

Again, with your religious upbringing and placing the wrong defenition on a greek word.

No I don't need to have water to be baptized. What water were the children of Isreal dunked into when they were baptized into moses? Non.

So your saying if the word "water" is not mentioned it means is spiritual? I don't think you really believe this.
Rom 6 is water baptism, nothing in it implies nor says it is spiritual and no water. That really is sad you would go that far to try and twist God's word.
The baptism in Rom 6 is a burial, immersion in water. It is symbolic of being buried, in the water, raised like Christ - out of the water.
Oh but your right it does not say "water" so cant be that. lol it Doe sent say spirit either, so I guess by your logic it cant mean either one.

See, this is your problem, Your reading romans 6 from a religeous viewpoint based on what you have been taught.

When romans 6 says I have been baptized into his death, It means I literally was baptised into his death. That such as when he died, I DIED WITH HIM. water can't do that. And a man dipping me in water can't immerse me into the death of Christ. Only God can.

I still dont see it your way, and I never will alsong as you have to go to the most upsured conclusion to hold to what your saying. How many passage do you have to rewrite to mean something else? How many do I ? NOne

Thats ok, I never will believe the way you do. I can't twist the defenition of a word, which no greek speaking person at the time of Pauls writting would interpret it your way.

if the interpretors would have interpreted the greek word, instead of transliterating it, we would not be having this conversation. Man took a foriegn word, and made a religious ceremony out of it. I was baptized into Christ by the HS. I later was baptized in water in abeyance of my saviors command.

The HS washed me (titus 3:5) not some paster who got me wet!

So Paul in Rom 6 was not talking about the same baptism that the eunuch obeyed in Acts 8? So did the Eunch have two baptisms.

Why not. The apostles did. So did the gentiles in acts 10. So will we all, If you have not been baptized by the spirit as prophesied by john the baptist. your not saved. period!

This shows you do not understand you do not understand baptism at all. Who said we need a "pastor"?
Any Christian who teaching someone the same message that the Apostles were teaching can baptized them.

yeah they can. And it still will not make them any more spiritually cloean then if a pastor baptised them in water and Got them wet.

Does that mean it is now their own work?
It is God that washes ways your sins, not man, adds you to the church, not man.

Can you be proud of being baptized? I know many people who are puffed up with the way, or who baptized them, or many other things about their baptism.

Not of works lest ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!, if we can take credit, it is a work of men and not a work of God.

So is acts 2 also waterless baptism?

No, it is water baptism. Acts 2 follows the command of Christ. Go make disciples (get men saved and born into the church) then baptize THEM.

If your not saved first. you get wet with no spiritual significants

So your saying I cannot comapre a physical act to explain a spirutal one. You tried this before remember, when you said I could comaper Noah's salvtion to ours, Yet Peter did. HE compared Noah's physical salvation in the water of the flood, to our spritual salvation in the waters of baptism - I Pet 3:21. You need to read more.
I still laugh when I think of how you tried to explain I Pet 3:21, "not the washing away of the filth of the flesh" remember that one?

Yeah I do remember. Yet you want to tell me it does remove the filth of the flesh and make us clean. Thus because of this, we are saved. I laugh every time I thinki that any man would think physical water can wash our spiritual soul, and removes the sins of our flesh. Oh wait what am I thinking. The jews thought physical circumcision did this, this is why they were clean, and uncircumcized filth called gentiles were outcasts and dirty.

Dude, I already PROVED this false. Just because you wont accept the rules of Greek does not mean you can keep using it as a valid defense.

You did not prove anything but in your own head. Why are you boasting now. What happened to humility?

The verbs follow the tense and number of the nouns (subjects).

Acts 2:38: <3588>(T-GSN)Then<1161>(CONJ) Peter<4074>(N-NSM) said<5346>(V-IXI-3S) unto<4314>(PREP) them<846>(P-APM), Repent<3340>(V-AAM-2P), and<2532>(CONJ) be baptized<907>(V-APM-3S) every one<1538>(A-NSM) of you<5216>(P-2GP)

Peter said to them repent and be baptized each one of you.....
"repent" follows "them" - Plural
"be baptized" follows "Every one of you" Singular

Everyone of you is a collective noun, yet a plurality of people, just like a team of foot ball players.

Them, and "everyone of you" are the same group of people. This is crazy I have to explain this to you again.

The passage is literally "and Peter said unto them repent and let everyone of you be baptized..."

You have no clue how the greek language works. 2nd person nouns can not be completed with a third person subject and vice versa.
I don't tell everyone to repent, and then tell some of them to be baptized, and say they ALL will get the gift of the spirit if this takes place. it makes no sense. If baptism was essentiaol. I would say All of you repent and be baptized. i would use the same "person" type for both verbs.

Again this just shows how far you will attempt to go in order to avoid what is plainly stated.
I am sorry if you refuse to agree with collective nouns and Greek rules of grammar.

it is you who rejects to agree with the types of verbs and nouns used. Like the pharisee you refuse to admit your hard work will have nothing to do with your salvation.

It is the water that saves us? NO. It is our obedience to Christ that saves us, and gives us a good conscience toward God knowing we have done what is commanded. and why Peter could write "baptism does also now save us". - I Pet 3:21.

so we are saved by works, and not faith. Thanks for telling me this.

For by grace we have been saved by earning salvation through faith (and works), it is not a gift of God, we all should obey him and do these works so we can boast.

Paul got it wrong!

No wrong again, this time because you don't understand the what the baptism of the HS is. Peter identifies it plainly, read Acts 2 and 10. You cannot be baptized with the Holy Spirit unless you believe he will fall on you and you will start performing miracles.
The Baptism of the HS is miraculous, it was a sign for the Apsotels, and only promise to them. IF not show me otherwise.

1st off. Coming on or in you is not baptize, it is anoint, again your language skills are missing, Your trying to make a religios defenition to a literal word. . Jesus was anointed by God when the HS descended on him as a dove. He was not baptised.

]Baptise means we are placed into something, not that something is placed in us.

Look at the OT preisthood. The were washed in water (baptised) then they were annointed with the oil.

this is symbolic at what happens with us. We are baptized by God the HS (washed (titus 3:5) and then annointed as the holy spirit is poured out on us.

you need to study more!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I might also add Acts 13:48 for your consideration. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
It doesn't say that as many as God saw would belive He appointed to eternal life, but as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
God bless.

Tom

if God chose us, and doe snot need us to have faith, he wasted his breath by saying we must have faith in him to be saved. sort of a contradiction in terms. You must believe, but it don't matter, i saved you anyway!!

 

[feedm3]

No my friend it is you who do not understand baptism. It is a transliteration, not a translation of a greek word, thus we must take the greek interpretation not the forced english interpretation.

This has nothing to do with water or spirit. What do you think, we ran to a dictionanry and looked up baptism? The Bible is clear, it means to dip, plunge, immerse, - the english def say it is a spirnkling i dont believe that nor do I use the ENG def, I didnt even bring them up so your just making a straw man argument, this has nothing to do with the context of when we find the word, and how it's used in scripture. And your already being inconsisent with what your saying I will show you below.

Baptism does not mean water. nor does iut have water anywhere in its definition. it means to be immersed or placed into something. It is a verb. When it says you are baptized into something, it literally means you were placed into that thing.

Yes, and when "immersion" is mentioned in the Bible it is understood as water unless their is something else specificcaaly mentioned that says otherwise. Because immersion in water, was commonly practiced by the Jews even before though they had different meanings.
Now what was JOhn's baptism, water? or Spirit?

your reading like your religious teaching has taught you, and not how a greek speaking person would have read and understood it.

No man I am reading whats plain. You are forced to fight against these passages because you must change the meaning of the passages to fit what you believe, instead of what you believe to fit the Bible.

Again, with your religious upbringing and placing the wrong defenition on a greek word.

Wow, now you know how I was brought up and you aks me of humility? You have no idea how I was brought up. Do you know that I had to study my way out of false doctrine, and get shunded my many who were close to me, because they teach what you do? You dont know so dont act like you know.

No I don't need to have water to be baptized. What water were the children of Isreal dunked into when they were baptized into moses? Non.

Were the Children of Israel under the NT? No. Can we sacrifice a bull? NO. Not a good argument, they had a different law system, the lived under. Yes they are saved by the blood of Christ, yes they get around batpism because they lived under a different law.

See, this is your problem, Your reading romans 6 from a religeous viewpoint based on what you have been taught.

Your reading Rom 6 and forcing a different baptism because you cannot believe in obedience. This is the whole root of your argument.

When romans 6 says I have been baptized into his death, It means I literally was baptised into his death. That such as when he died, I DIED WITH HIM. water can't do that. And a man dipping me in water can't immerse me into the death of Christ. Only God can.

I am sick of you saying water cant do that, man cant do that, are you saying if God commands something that a man must do, it is man that is doing the effect of what;s commanded and not God?

if the interpretors would have interpreted the greek word, instead of transliterating it, we would not be having this conversation. Man took a foreign word, and made a religious ceremony out of it. I was baptized into Christ by the HS. I later was baptized in water in abeyance of my saviors command.

If they did that, then the Bible would say "repent and be immersed". John would be john the immerser. So what, it wouldnt change what we were immersed in. The Bible tells us.
If it was your saviors command for you to be baptized, did you have to do it? what if you didnt want to?

The HS washed me (titus 3:5) not some paster who got me wet!

So how then John's baptism of repentance was not really God doing anything, but it was John's power that made that baptism unto repentance?

Why not. The apostles did. So did the gentiles in acts 10. So will we all, If you have not been baptized by the spirit as prophesied by john the baptist. your not saved. period!

When the HS spirit fell upon the Apostles in Acts 2, what was that?
Does that still happen to us today?
Why did Philip in Acts 8 need peter and John to come and lay hands on the Samaritans so they could receive the HS?
If we are baptized with HS, will we speak in tongues?
How is the different from the gift of HS in Acts 2:38?

yeah they can. And it still will not make them any more spiritually cloean then if a pastor baptised them in water and Got them wet.

Like I said, if you think a command of God is the command of men then you really need to study.
When a man leads us in a prayer, is he now become the our mediator?
If one takes the Lord's supper that men have prepared, they cannot really have communion with Chirst according to your belief? Right?

Can you be proud of being baptized? I know many people who are puffed up with the way, or who baptized them, or many other things about their baptism.

I have never seen anyone seem priduful, except in denominations, but I wont get into that.

Not of works lest ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!, if we can take credit, it is a work of men and not a work of God.

Thats nuts man. Who commanded it? God or men?

No, it is water baptism. Acts 2 follows the command of Christ. Go make disciples (get men saved and born into the church) then baptize THEM.

Really? How do you know? I don't see "water" anywhere. Do you see "water"? This is how your being inconsistent. You say Rom 6 cannot be water, because you don't see "water". NOw you say acts 2 is what because they are following the command of Christ, yet no water.

And you just said water baptism was the "command of Christ", if so, how can it be a work or man? Your saying something that Christ commanded is something that a man does, so it is a work of man?

Adn he did not say (get men saved and born into the church then baptize them". You ought to be ashamed and scared to try and change God's word.

Matthew 28:19: ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Hmmm, dont see your version in there, but I do see baptism in the name of the Father, Son, HS. In the name of meaning by the authority of. But since I dont see "water" it must be spirit, no i dont see spirit either, i guess it's fire, no wait no fire either, must be something unheard of.

If your not saved first. you get wet with no spiritual significants

Passage please?

Yeah I do remember. Yet you want to tell me it does remove the filth of the flesh and make us clean.

Right I want you to believe are skin is made clean. Comon man, you must have nothting if you go that low.
When Did I ever say baptism cleans the filth of the flesh?

Thus because of this, we are saved. I laugh every time I thinki that any man would think physical water can wash our spiritual soul, and removes the sins of our flesh.

I wont be funny one day bro, change that attitude while you can.
Acts 22:1

You did not prove anything but in your own head. Why are you boasting now. What happened to humility?

Did you not just say your laughing too?

You have no clue how the greek language works. 2nd person nouns can not be completed with a third person subject and vice versa.

wow, are you seriously going to act as if you are not wrong?

Look man, I will explian this please read it:

Repent is 2nd PLURAL ----it follows "THEM" which is plural

Baptized is 3rd SINGULAR because if follows -- -"Every one" which is a collective noun --it is a singualar noun.

2nd person plural -- "YOU" repent
3rd Person Sing -------"he/she,it" be baptized

You in the plural means all the group(you all), everyone of you SING meaning all in the group

Baptism is Singualar because of the collective noun "every one of you" which is still refering to everyone in the plural group (them).

You all repent and each of you be baptized. This is not that hard man.

Dude this is not a theory this is the correct interpretation.

I don't tell everyone to repent, and then tell some of them to be baptized,

Does "everyone of you" imply some or all?

It's no different saying, "the couch said to the team, drink, and every one of you be refreshed"

If written in Greek the verbs would follow the nouns, drink would be Plural because team is plural,
Refreshed would singular because Every one of you is Singular.

"It" is third Person singular because it 3rd persons means he/she/it, when referring to a groupe you would use third person "it". it is the group, the same group it never changes.

and say they ALL will get the gift of the spirit if this takes place. it makes no sense.

NO it does not make sense when you think "everyone of you" means "some"!

Man look it up, your wrong here. I am trying to show you, find a Greek teacher and ask them if you wont believe me. I am not trying to show you antohter way of looking at it, but the correct interpretation.

Im sure you heard this from some faith only preacher who can can even think could be wrong, but he is and so are you. Not to mention the foolishness of what your trying to force it to mean. Two groups? That is crazy.

I have taken Greek(still learning though). And anyone who understands basic Greek can understand what I am saying. You don't believe me because you don't understand what I am saying. I don't think your being dishonest, I think you really just don't get what I am saying.

This in an invalid argument it has been since you have brought it up.

If baptism was essentiaol. I would say All of you repent and be baptized. i would use the same "person" type for both verbs.

No you wouldn't, if you were to write it correctly. You wouldn't use the same person if you threw in a collective noun, that described a group of people,. You would use 3rd person Singular form, if you were correct, as Luke was in writing the form he did.

it is you who rejects to agree with the types of verbs and nouns used. Like the pharisee you refuse to admit your hard work will have nothing to do with your salvation.

I am just repeating what the Bible says, your the one who is fighting face value. In fact why we even discussing Greek, because you attempted to make what is easily understood mean something else. Characteristic of the Pharisees.

so we are saved by works, and not faith. Thanks for telling me this.

Straw man again. Never said we are not saved by faith. Weve been down this road, you start contradicting yourself and then you leave for a while hoping more posts will come so no sees your contraindication, then you come back, do the same, and it never ends. So do you really want to go there again?

For by grace we have been saved by earning salvation through faith (and works), it is not a gift of God, we all should obey him and do these works so we can boast.

Paul got it wrong!

lol, yea, right, straw man. obedience is not a work. Paul is not telling us we dont have to obey.

1st off. Coming on or in you is not baptize, it is anoint, again your language skills are missing, Your trying to make a religios defenition to a literal word. . Jesus was anointed by God when the HS descended on him as a dove. He was not baptised.

What? "trying to make a religious definitions out of a literal word?" Don't all definitions, religious and non religious come from a literal word?
Umm, he was coming "up out of the water" when this happened. How was he not baptized? It's interesting God chose that moment to bear witness to him, and give the HS.
But since it was John who baptized him, I guess it was all John's doing according your belief.

]Baptise means we are placed into something, not that something is placed in us.

Yea we are placed in the death of Christ, a burial, symbolized by our immersion in water. Then we are added to his church - Acts 2:47.

Look at the OT preisthood. The were washed in water (baptised) then they were annointed with the oil.

this is symbolic at what happens with us. We are baptized by God the HS (washed (titus 3:5) and then annointed as the holy spirit is poured out on us.

you need to study more!

Dude dont you get it? they were washed with water (symbol of baptism) and anootied with oil (symbol of the HS). You are refusing to be washed in order to receive the oil, you want to be washed and be oiled at the same time. You need to study more.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This has nothing to do with water or spirit. What do you think, we ran to a dictionanry and looked up baptism? The Bible is clear, it means to dip, plunge, immerse,

Dip is a derivative of the whole root baptizo.. Bapto is dip.. baptizo is a complete immersion or placing into. Revelation tells us when Jesus returns he will come with his robes dipped (bapto) in blood. If it was immersed in blood, the write would have said he came with it baptized in blood.

either way your right about the defenition. your error is always adding water to the word.

romans 6 says we were immersed into the death and burial of Christ, it says nothing about being immersed in water, your adding to the defenition and to the word.

enough said.

- the english def say it is a spirnkling i dont believe that nor do I use the ENG def, I didnt even bring them up so your just making a straw man argument, this has nothing to do with the context of when we find the word, and how it's used in scripture. And your already being inconsisent with what your saying I will show you below.
Yes, and when "immersion" is mentioned in the Bible it is understood as water unless their is something else specificcaaly mentioned that says otherwise. Because immersion in water, was commonly practiced by the Jews even before though they had different meanings.
Now what was JOhn's baptism, water? or Spirit?

And here you go. You say I used a strawman, yet Paul in romans tells us exactly what we were baptized into. Baptize is the nound, death and burial is the subject of the noun. yet for some reason you want to add water.

I was baptized INTO CHRIST by the HS, not into water

John? He told us, water was the subject of his baptism. He also told us Jesus would baptise with the spirit and fire.

what does that have to do with what Paul said about being baptized INTO death, burial and body of Christ? not to mention Christ himself.

For as many of us who have been baptized INTO CHRIST, (not water) etc

Your reading Rom 6 and forcing a different baptism because you cannot believe in obedience. This is the whole root of your argument.

Your the one forcing water not me!

I am sick of you saying water cant do that, man cant do that, are you saying if God commands somethin

yeah? Well I am sick of people trying to replace the work of God (the HS) with the work of man.

so I guess we are two sick people huh??lol

if the interpretors would have interpreted the greek word, instead of transliterating it, we would not be having this conversation. Man took a foriegn word, and made a religious ceremony out of it. I was baptized into Christ by the HS. I later was baptized in water in abeyance of my saviors command.

So how then John's baptism of repentance was not really God doing anything, but it was John's power that made that baptism unto repentance?

John baptized only people he knew repented. He refused to baptise jerish religious leaders, and demanded proof they had repented proves this.

He did not baptist to give someone repentance, he baptized people who had already repented.

When the HS spirit fell upon the Apostles in Acts 2, what was that?

It was the ANOINTING of the HS. Of course it followed the fact that they were also the first men BAPTIZED by the hs. The HS can not enter a person until the person is first washed. Washing comes before anointing always

Does that still happen to us today?

Yep it does. I was washed by the spirit (titus 3: 5) then he not only annointed me, But sealed me (eph 1: 13-14)

Why did Philip in Acts 8 need peter and John to come and lay hands on the Samaritans so they could receive the HS?

As with all new things, God used different signs to prove it was from God, he used it to jump start his church, It did nto always happen that way, If it was required, it would always have to be that way, the fact that God used different things to show these men were from God proves that it was not always required but signs.

If we are baptized with HS, will we speak in tongues?

Nope, we are just cleansed. All gifts come from the fact the Holy Spirit enters us, nothing to do with baptism of the spirit. The baptism just gives us spiritual cleansing.

Plus, not everyone has the gift.

Like I said, if you think a command of God is the command of men then you really need to study.

God gave us alot of commands. He commanded us to take communion often, To never forsake the assembling of ourselves together. To spread his word. To make disciples of all nations. Do these save us also? Why are you focusing on one command when God gave many commands. None of them which save us, but are acts or works of faith we carry out AFTER WE ARE SAVED.


I don't have time or patience to answer the rest of this,

If you want to work to earn your salvation feel free. But don't condemn us who base our faith ion the spiritual cleansing of the HS, and refuse to place our eternal life in the work of men!

 

[feedm3]

Okay Ill wait till you answer the rest and comment on what you just wrote afterwards.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay Ill wait till you answer the rest and comment on what you just wrote afterwards.

you must not have read or been paying attention.

I don't have time or patience to answer the rest of this,

If you want to work to earn your salvation feel free. But don't condemn us who base our faith ion the spiritual cleansing of the HS, and refuse to place our eternal life in the work of men!

I said me peace and if anyone has questions regarding this, they can see my point of view. I see no need going further.

Your not going to saying anything I have not heard, or have not studied before. I did a 6 month study on this for a friend of mine who was a part of a cult back in the late 90's. you have not made any new arguments, or shown me anything I have not seen before. it is a waste of time to keep arguing, it stops being a discussion when we go over the same things over and over. when they will never be resolved.

 

[feedm3]

you must not have read or been paying attention.

yea i misread, doesnt make me guilty of not paying attention.



I said me peace and if anyone has questions regarding this, they can see my point of view. I see no need going further.

Your not going to saying anything I have not heard, or have not studied before. I did a 6 month study on this for a friend of mine who was a part of a cult back in the late 90's. you have not made any new arguments, or shown me anything I have not seen before. it is a waste of time to keep arguing, it stops being a discussion when we go over the same things over and over. when they will never be resolved.

Okay man. And you feel you have made some new revelation or something? DId you not just say everything you said before? Did not these things end up in a paradox? If you don't have time or patience to answer arguments, don't make them. It' s that simple. And if you dont want to people to continue to argue, just say im done i feel this is not getting anywhere or something like that, instead of saying im done "if you want to earn your salvaiton..." that's just immature, especially since you know I don't teach that. I have made that clear, if you cant see that, then maybe you dont understand me, but a simple bye is all that needed to end a conversation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay man. And you feel you have made some new revelation or something? DId you not just say everything you said before? Did not these things end up in a paradox? If you don't have time or patience to answer arguments, don't make them. It' s that simple. And if you dont want to people to continue to argue, just say im done i feel this is not getting anywhere or something like that, instead of saying im done "if you want to earn your salvaiton..." that's just immature, especially since you know I don't teach that. I have made that clear, if you cant see that, then maybe you dont understand me, but a simple bye is all that needed to end a conversation.

New revelation? Nope, believe the same as I have since I did that research on baptism. No one has shown me anything new, or brought anythign new to the table, same old arguments.

As for answering arguments. Which ones have I not already answered before? which was my point all along, why keep hashing the same stuff over and over. Look over this chat and you will see the same arguments between us have gone and and on. So why continue?

Don't want people to argue? I am not here to argue, I am here to discuss Gods word. If your here to argue, thats sad!

As for earning your salvation. If your doing a "WORK" to get saved, your trying to earn it. Baptism is a work, you can deny it all you want. You are physically doing something you can take credit for. that is a work of righteousness which we have done. Scripture makes it clear.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done (including baptism in water), He (God) saved us by the washing (spirit baptism) and renewing (new birth) of the HS.

This is what I follow. and why I follow spirit baptism, and not water baptism.

I was water baptised in water. Not to get saved, But because I am saved. Why? Because God commanded it

 

[feedm3]

New revelation? Nope, believe the same as I have since I did that research on baptism. No one has shown me anything new, or brought anythign new to the table, same old arguments.

As for answering arguments. Which ones have I not already answered before? which was my point all along, why keep hashing the same stuff over and over. Look over this chat and you will see the same arguments between us have gone and and on. So why continue?

Don't want people to argue? I am not here to argue, I am here to discuss Gods word. If your here to argue, thats sad!

As for earning your salvation. If your doing a "WORK" to get saved, your trying to earn it. Baptism is a work, you can deny it all you want. You are physically doing something you can take credit for. that is a work of righteousness which we have done. Scripture makes it clear.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done (including baptism in water), He (God) saved us by the washing (spirit baptism) and renewing (new birth) of the HS.

This is what I follow. and why I follow spirit baptism, and not water baptism.

I was water baptised in water. Not to get saved, But because I am saved. Why? Because God commanded it

I thought you didnt want to argue. You said you were done, and your still here making more arguments that you said you will not answer. Do you just like to hear yourself talk or something? Make up your mind, discuss, or not? If not stop acting like a child, if so we can continue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought you didnt want to argue. You said you were done, and your still here making more arguments that you said you will not answer. Do you just like to hear yourself talk or something? Make up your mind, discuss, or not? If not stop acting like a child, if so we can continue.

Discuss what? I said I did not want to discuss it anymore. And you were to proud to let it Go, you came back mocking and saying stuff which was not true. Was I not supposed to answer? Wow some people!