What is the salvation process? Believe. Baptize. RECEIVE !

[eternally-gratefull]

yes and likewise, our obedience to His will does the same, which requires baptism, repentance, faith, etc.
Circumsion was a literal cutting away of the flesh, symbolic for the spritual nature today when we separate from the flesh (the old man) that is buried and the new man rised to walk in spritual life, through baptism - Rom 6.

Yet physical baptism in physical water is no different, it is symbolic of the HS washing our spiritual bodies and making them clean.

A sinner, who was a man of God probably circumcized, it did not have a thing to do with the persons salvation.

A sinner, probably a man of God washes us in baptism, it does not have a thing to do with us being saved.

They are BOTH symbolic.

Rom 6 speaks of spiritual baptism, not water. no water in mentioned, it is the literal act of the HS taking us to the death and burial of Christ. Or placing us into vital union with these things, that such as Christ died we died also. It is like how the Children of Isreal were baptized into moses. They were united with him, not immersed in him. Rom 6 is not some man immersing us in water.

You still don't see it.

agreed, in the sense I said above. It is a spiritual separation from the flesh Yet as we have discussed before, it is not a work of man. It is God who:
buries us into Christ, adds us to the Lords church, washes away our sins, through our obedience in humbling ourselves and being baptized.

God does not need some pastor to imerse us in water to wash us, or to decide when we are saved, He does it when he wills. He does not require we do some work in order to gain his gift.

Namaan in II KI 5 could not understand why he had to dip in the water 7 times to cleans his leoprsy. He did it, and was cleansed. So was it the water in the Jordon that cleansed him, or his obedience to God after he humbled himself? Of course it was God.

This was physical healing, Not spiritual. You can't compair the two.

It is the same for us, we are commanded (imperative acts 2:38) to be baptized. It washes away our sins by putting us in contace with the blood of Christ - Acts 22:16.

False. the origional text of Acts 2 does not agree. Peter did not tell us to everyone to be baptised to receive remission, he told those who recieved remmision to be baptised.

Now we can have the same attitude as Naaman about the water, yet this is how God chose for us to be washed.

lol or we can be like the jew and take God and prevent him from doing something, and see he needs our help. Basically holding God back until man does something.

You still don't get it.


It is the water that saves us? NO. It is our obedience to Christ that saves us, and gives us a good conscience toward God knowing we have done what is commanded. and why Peter could write "baptism does also now save us". - I Pet 3:21.

Yes but the baptism of HS is not promised to us, it for the Apostles and the Gentiles of Acts 10. It is when the Spirit fell on the Apostles and Cornelius without the laying on of hands.

How can something God commanded be the work of men?

Me to

HS Baptism is not a work of men, nor is it dependant on the work of man, And it is not water baptism, nor do they happen at the same time, they are two different baptisms.

It happens the moment you are saved, wherever you are, and whatever you are doing, It is not dependent on physical water, or waiting on some man to be able to baptise us.

 

[Tombo]

We are saved by the blood of Christ. Yet because you cant find the word "repented" in a message written to Christian does that mean its not implied?

Does Paul need to go over all the process of salvation in order to mention faith? True faith covers the obedience one encountered upon first hearing the gospel message. At what was that message before they were Christians?
Christ died for you, you are in sin, repent and baptized is the cure. Now I ask you to read Acts 2 very carefully.

What about this:
Romans 8:24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Says nothing of faith, only hope, does that mean we are saved by hope alone? No faith is implied, and directly mentioned in the context of Romans, so is baptism and repentance.
Please read Romans and keep in mind this was a letter to Christians, not unbelievers.


Yea this is the same old fluff you all go to. Obedience to God is not a work, it is your duty as a Christan:
Luke 17:10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
If you refuse to do your duty, then you face the consequences. If you think your duty is a work then I guess you need to study on works.


Straw man argument, no one ever said anything like this.
In fact, the passage above tells me that attitude to have in that day - Lk 17:10

No one can stand with that kind of attitude, yet becoming dead to sin, repenting, being baptized are all commands that do not make us high minded, nor feel we are earning anything. Just doing what God said.

I hear the distant sounds of skinski7 in your posts. You guys love the word straw man. And the funny thing is, you are the ones building them!!!! You only claim to be a Christian for 8 yrs? You know what they say about a little knowledge. You need to learn more before trying to be a teacher.

I pray God opens your eyes to see Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been save through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Read God's word, and pray more, instead of listening to men on here who tell you to trust in your own repentance and good works to save you. Salvation first, repentance and good works after. If you keep that straight, you will never fall.
God bless.


Tom

 

[feedm3]

Yet physical baptism in physical water is no different, it is symbolic of the HS washing our spiritual bodies and making them clean.

A sinner, who was a man of God probably circumcized, it did not have a thing to do with the persons salvation.

A sinner, probably a man of God washes us in baptism, it does not have a thing to do with us being saved.

According to you, but not the Bible. You do not understand baptism, because if is a forced conclusion you hold to advocate a certian doctrine.

Physical water and Phyical bapitism are no different? YEa and, of course not, you need physical water to be baptized.

Rom 6 speaks of spiritual baptism, not water. no water in mentioned, it is the literal act of the HS taking us to the death and burial of Christ. Or placing us into vital union with these things, that such as Christ died we died also. It is like how the Children of Isreal were baptized into moses. They were united with him, not immersed in him. Rom 6 is not some man immersing us in water.

So your saying if the word "water" is not mentioned it means is spiritual? I don't think you really believe this.
Rom 6 is water baptism, nothing in it implies nor says it is spiritual and no water. That really is sad you would go that far to try and twist God's word.
The baptism in Rom 6 is a burial, immersion in water. It is symbolic of being buried, in the water, raised like Christ - out of the water.
Oh but your right it does not say "water" so cant be that. lol it Doe sent say spirit either, so I guess by your logic it cant mean either one.

You still don't see it.

I still dont see it your way, and I never will alsong as you have to go to the most upsured conclusion to hold to what your saying. How many passage do you have to rewrite to mean something else? How many do I ? NOne

So Paul in Rom 6 was not talking about the same baptism that the eunuch obeyed in Acts 8? So did the Eunch have two baptisms.

God does not need some pastor to imerse us in water to wash us, or to decide when we are saved, He does it when he wills. He does not require we do some work in order to gain his gift.

This shows you do not understand you do not understand baptism at all. Who said we need a "pastor"?
Any Christian who teaching someone the same message that the Apostles were teaching can baptized them.
Does that mean it is now their own work?
It is God that washes ways your sins, not man, adds you to the church, not man.

So is acts 2 also waterless baptism?

This was physical healing, Not spiritual. You can't compair the two.

So your saying I cannot comapre a physical act to explain a spirutal one. You tried this before remember, when you said I could comaper Noah's salvtion to ours, Yet Peter did. HE compared Noah's physical salvation in the water of the flood, to our spritual salvation in the waters of baptism - I Pet 3:21. You need to read more.
I still laugh when I think of how you tried to explain I Pet 3:21, "not the washing away of the filth of the flesh" remember that one?

False. the origional text of Acts 2 does not agree. Peter did not tell us to everyone to be baptised to receive remission, he told those who recieved remmision to be baptised.

Dude, I already PROVED this false. Just because you wont accept the rules of Greek does not mean you can keep using it as a valid defense.

The verbs follow the tense and number of the nouns (subjects).

Acts 2:38: <3588>(T-GSN)Then<1161>(CONJ) Peter<4074>(N-NSM) said<5346>(V-IXI-3S) unto<4314>(PREP) them<846>(P-APM), Repent<3340>(V-AAM-2P), and<2532>(CONJ) be baptized<907>(V-APM-3S) every one<1538>(A-NSM) of you<5216>(P-2GP)

Peter said to them repent and be baptized each one of you.....
"repent" follows "them" - Plural
"be baptized" follows "Every one of you" Singular

Everyone of you is a collective noun, yet a plurality of people, just like a team of foot ball players.

Them, and "everyone of you" are the same group of people. This is crazy I have to explain this to you again.

The passage is literally "and Peter said unto them repent and let everyone of you be baptized..."

Again this just shows how far you will attempt to go in order to avoid what is plainly stated.
I am sorry if you refuse to agree with collective nouns and Greek rules of grammar.

All your doing here is proving you don't understand Greek. Seriously take a basic Greek course at any community collage, you will see this is basic stuff. There is a lot of classes in ITunes for free, if your interested.

It is the water that saves us? NO. It is our obedience to Christ that saves us, and gives us a good conscience toward God knowing we have done what is commanded. and why Peter could write "baptism does also now save us". - I Pet 3:21.

HS Baptism is not a work of men, nor is it dependant on the work of man, And it is not water baptism, nor do they happen at the same time, they are two different baptisms.

It happens the moment you are saved, wherever you are, and whatever you are doing, It is not dependent on physical water, or waiting on some man to be able to baptise us.

No wrong again, this time because you don't understand the what the baptism of the HS is. Peter identifies it plainly, read Acts 2 and 10. You cannot be baptized with the Holy Spirit unless you believe he will fall on you and you will start performing miracles.
The Baptism of the HS is miraculous, it was a sign for the Apsotels, and only promise to them. IF not show me otherwise.

 

[feedm3]

I hear the distant sounds of skinski7 in your posts. You guys love the word straw man.

And you guys love using them.

And the funny thing is, you are the ones building them!!!! You only claim to be a Christian for 8 yrs? You know what they say about a little knowledge. You need to learn more before trying to be a teacher.

Good advise, use it.

I pray God opens your eyes to see Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been save through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

He has through study, Eph 2 is speaking to the Ephiseins telling them it is nothing they have done to desever God's grace, not to be high minded, same message in ROm 11.
This does not mean, we do not have to obey God one bit. Like I said if you feel your duty is a work then study more on works.

Read God's word, and pray more, instead of listening to men on here who tell you to trust in your own repentance and good works to save you. Salvation first, repentance and good works after. If you keep that straight, you will never fall.
God bless.

I show scripture, no man telling me anything. I am sorry that so many have fallen to the false doctrine, but it is not a surprise, it is a worldly message, that worldly people will follow.

I hope you will at look at the Bible with an open and honest mind.

 

[Tombo]

And you guys love using them.


Good advise, use it.

He has through study, Eph 2 is speaking to the Ephiseins telling them it is nothing they have done to desever God's grace, not to be high minded, same message in ROm 11.
This does not mean, we do not have to obey God one bit. Like I said if you feel your duty is a work then study more on works.

I show scripture, no man telling me anything. I am sorry that so many have fallen to the false doctrine, but it is not a surprise, it is a worldly message, that worldly people will follow.

I hope you will at look at the Bible with an open and honest mind.

Do you hold (as skinski7 and Tommy4Christ do) that a Christian needs to repent in order to be saved, and that if they fall into sin they can lose their salvation?
Do you deny that God is the one who chooses whom He wishes to save, as is taught in Romans chapter nine and John 5 and 6?
Do you believe the biblical doctrine of original sin? If you don't, would you please explain why all humans die, just like God warned Adam and Eve that they would die on the day that they disobeyed Him. Why do babies dies of cancer and all other kinds of illness? Is it because they didn't repent of their sins? I asked for an answer to all of these questions from your friends and they cannot answer.
I would be interested to hear your exposition on these things.
God bless.

Tom

 

[feedm3]

Do you hold (as skinski7 and Tommy4Christ do) that a Christian needs to repent in order to be saved, and that if they fall into sin they can lose their salvation?

Yes I beleive a christian must repent in order to be saved as taught in Acts 2:38.

As for losing salvation, yes as taught in Gal, Heb, and in many places in the gospel.

I know some say if one chooses to live in sin he was never saved to begin with, I don't see this anywhere in scripture, but if thats the way one wants to see it, fine with me.

If a believer, chooses to become a homosexual, the Bible teaches he will not inheiret the kingdom of God.
If he was never saved or lost his salvation, it doesn't matter to me, the point is sin keeps him from salvation.
Paul in his letters to churches, warned about sin, and warned about receiving God's grace in vain.
He also gave them a message of repentance II Cor 7. If they refused to repent, they were not saved, if they did they would continue to have Christ's blood cleanse them from all sin.

Do you deny that God is the one who chooses whom He wishes to save, as is taught in Romans chapter nine and John 5 and 6?

No I dont deny that God has chosen the elect. Yet I do believe in freedom of Choice. The elect are the ones that God knew before the world that would CHOOSE to accept Christ. Yet I do believe we can choose not to, God has granted us that freedom.

Do you believe the biblical doctrine of original sin? If you don't, would you please explain why all humans die, just like God warned Adam and Eve that they would die on the day that they disobeyed Him.

Sure because all have sinned Rom 3:23. Death is a consequence of sin. Yet even babies die, that does not mean a baby is a sinner. Remember God also cursed the ground, now men must work for their food because of what Adam did? Why do we all have to work for our food? It is the consequence of sin.
As Paul also said, "and so death passed to all because all have sinned".
This does not mean we are born with sin, we choose to sin. Babies may die, but where do they go? Heaven, why, because they have no sin.

Why do babies dies of cancer and all other kinds of illness? Is it because they didn't repent of their sins? I asked for an answer to all of these questions from your friends and they cannot answer.

The answer is above, i answered it before I even read this part of your post lol, i knew where it was going.

 

[Tombo]

Yes I beleive a christian must repent in order to be saved as taught in Acts 2:38.

As for losing salvation, yes as taught in Gal, Heb, and in many places in the gospel.

I know some say if one chooses to live in sin he was never saved to begin with, I don't see this anywhere in scripture, but if thats the way one wants to see it, fine with me.

If a believer, chooses to become a homosexual, the Bible teaches he will not inheiret the kingdom of God.
If he was never saved or lost his salvation, it doesn't matter to me, the point is sin keeps him from salvation.
Paul in his letters to churches, warned about sin, and warned about receiving God's grace in vain.
He also gave them a message of repentance II Cor 7. If they refused to repent, they were not saved, if they did they would continue to have Christ's blood cleanse them from all sin.
No I dont deny that God has chosen the elect. Yet I do believe in freedom of Choice. The elect are the ones that God knew before the world that would CHOOSE to accept Christ. Yet I do believe we can choose not to, God has granted us that freedom.

Sure because all have sinned Rom 3:23. Death is a consequence of sin. Yet even babies die, that does not mean a baby is a sinner. Remember God also cursed the ground, now men must work for their food because of what Adam did? Why do we all have to work for our food? It is the consequence of sin.
As Paul also said, "and so death passed to all because all have sinned".
This does not mean we are born with sin, we choose to sin. Babies may die, but where do they go? Heaven, why, because they have no sin.

The answer is above, i answered it before I even read this part of your post lol, i knew where it was going.

You pretty much answered along the lines I thought you would. So you think that even though God teaches in Romans chapter three that "there is none righteous, no, not one", "no one seeks for God",
"no one does good, not even one", there is no fear of God before their eyes, etc., that people still have free will to chose God, to chose good??!!

What about in John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
John 6:65 "And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

What about Romans 9:11- 24 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election of might continue, not because of works, but because of Him who calls- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion/not of him who wills or runs, but on God, who has mercy. For the scripture says to pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then He has mercy on whomever He wills and He hardens whomever He wills.
You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

You tell me, after reading all of these verses where God declares that all men are evil, how could God look down the corridors of time and see who would "choose" to believe on Him??? And how can you deny that God is the one who chooses who he wishes to save after reading all of these verses in Romans nine??? And please don't say like skinski7 or one of the others do, that it's speaking of nations and not people. That is so dishonest and does such violence to the text. It clearly says, " even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles." It is clearly showing that God is not talking about nations, but individuals, when He includes both Jews and Gentiles.

Your understanding of predestination and election is faulty because you think it would be unfair of God to choose whomever He wishes to salvation, even though the Bible clearly teaches that all are sinners deserving destruction. If God chose to save some (at a huge cost to Himself) and let the others perish, that is not unfair. God owes us nothing BUT WRATH AND DESTRUCTION, but He does not owe us mercy. He shows His mercy to whomever He wishes out of His grace.

Well, I've tried to show you from the scriptures where you have strayed. I didn't mean to sound haughty by comparing you to others, it's just that too many have come along lately teaching people that they can work for their salvation, and lose their slavation, salvation that Jesus purchased with His own blood for a particular people who can never be plucked out of the Fahter's hand.
I hope you will honestly look at these verses and let them show you the way to God's mercy which is in Christ ALONE.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Tombo]

I might also add Acts 13:48 for your consideration. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
It doesn't say that as many as God saw would belive He appointed to eternal life, but as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
God bless.

Tom

 

[feedm3]

You pretty much answered along the lines I thought you would. So you think that even though God teaches in Romans chapter three that "there is none righteous, no, not one", "no one seeks for God",
"no one does good, not even one", there is no fear of God before their eyes, etc., that people still have free will to chose God, to chose good??!!

What is this chapter talking about? Is it giving the message that there is no one earth that will choose to do God and follow Christ? No, read the context: Paul is telling the Gentiles like in chapter 11 not to be high minded and think God chose them over the Jews because they were so much better and deseriving:

Romans 3:9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

He is quoting from Psalms to show the Gentiles, it is not because they were so righteous that God chose to let them be a part of his plan. He applies Psalm to them, to show their condition, all the earth's condition, no one is righteous enough for God's grace. Same message in EPH 2 concerning works.

You cannot use this to mean no one is able to choose good, and that is is only God that makes the choices for us. GOD is no respecter of persons, you are making him out to be such.

Isaiah 7:15: Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isaiah 7:16: For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

What about in John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
John 6:65 "And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Again, this is not a message of no freedom of choice. It is saying no one can come unless drawn by the Father. How does he draw us? The same way he calls us:
II Thessalonians 2:14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why does he call us by the gospel?
Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If the choice is already made for us, then the gospel is not the power of salvation.

God draws us by the gospel of Chirst, without God, their would be no gospel. It is granted to us by God to come to him through Chirst, that is the meaning of John 6:65: there is no other way granted but by Christ. This has nothing to do with what your trying to use it for.

What about Romans 9:11- 24 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election of might continue, not because of works, but because of Him who calls- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

This is speaking fo the physical births of Jacob and Esau but using them in a national sense not a physical one. When did Esau ever serve Jacob? Can you show me that please?
Go read the account, Jacob feared Esua, even when they were grown. So when did he serve the younger?
In the spiritual sense, in which thier births symbolized, he did serve the younger.
Same sense in which Malichi spoke against Edom:
Malachi 1:3: And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Malachi 1:4: Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion/not of him who wills or runs, but on God, who has mercy. For the scripture says to pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then He has mercy on whomever He wills and He hardens whomever He wills.

This again does not mean what you want it to mean.
God's purpose what to Glorify his name among Egypt and the Hebrew slaves.
Pharoah had freedom of choice, yet no matter which choice he made God's purpose would be fulfilled, his name would be glorified:

If Pharoah would have chosen to let the isrealites go, then God would be glorified, the Pharoah has obeyed the God of Israel.

If he did not choose to let them go, as he did choose, God's name was still glorfied.

God hardned his heart through his word. He gave that word to Moses. God still hardens our hearts through his word, when those who hear are offened, and hate it. Yet it is by their choice just as Pharoah.

You tell me, after reading all of these verses where God declares that all men are evil, how could God look down the corridors of time and see who would "choose" to believe on Him??? And how can you deny that God is the one who chooses who he wishes to save after reading all of these verses in Romans nine??? And please don't say like skinski7 or one of the others do, that it's speaking of nations and not people. That is so dishonest and does such violence to the text. It clearly says, " even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles." It is clearly showing that God is not talking about nations, but individuals when He includes both Jews and Gentiles.

Your understanding of predestination and election is faulty because you think it would be unfair of God to choose whomever He wishes to salvation, even though the Bible clearly teaches that all are sinners deserving destruction. If God chose to save some (at a huge cost to Himself) and let the others perish, that is not unfair. God owes us nothing BUT WRATH AND DESTRUCTION, but He does not owe us mercy. He shows His mercy to whomever He wishes out of His grace.

Well, I've tried to show you from the scriptures where you have strayed. I didn't mean to sound haughty by comparing you to others, it's just that too many have come along lately teaching people that they can work for their salvation, and lose their slavation, salvation that Jesus purchased with His own blood for a particular people who can never be plucked out of the Fahter's hand.
I hope you will honestly look at these verses and let them show you the way to God's mercy which is in Christ ALONE.
God bless.

No my understanding of Predestination is knowing it is false doctrine that makes God a repsector of persons and really does not even make sense when you get to the root of it. It is condraticting to God's character, and other passages that clearly show we have freedom of Choice. You might not want to believe that but thats your own rejection.

John 3:16 refutes your belief. "whosoever bleieves in him" if your doctrine is true then John 3:16 is false because it's not whosoever, but who God already chose.

Rom 1:16 is false because the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation, but it is really God's premade choice upon every individual.

When Joshua said "choose this day whom ye will serve" the choice was not really theirs.

II Thess 1:8,9 "in flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God and obey not the Gospel" Not God is unfair, why take vengence on them, if it was God you chose for them not to be saved. They had no power to accept him, why are they being punished?

Heb 5:9 " he became the author of eternal salavation unto all that obey him", yea only the ones who were chosen, so this passage really isnt for all.

In fact the Bible is not for all if what your saying is true. And Titus 2:11 is a joke, because it says "the grace of God WHICH BRINGS SALVATION HAS APPAERD UNTO ALL MEN"

Yet it cant be the grace of God that brings salvation, but God's predetermined chose on certaian individuals, and therfore this passage means nothing.

I could go on forever, you gert the point, stop making God, his grace, his Sons sacrifice only for limited people, when the Bible says he died for the world, is that true or not?

 

[feedm3]

I might also add Acts 13:48 for your consideration. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
It doesn't say that as many as God saw would belive He appointed to eternal life, but as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
God bless.

Tom

Yup, that decribes again those who were predestined before the world began, these are the ones God knew would use their freedom of choice and humble themselves and accept Christ.


I Timothy 2:4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

II Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So are these telling us God wants all of to be saved, but at the same time only chose certain ones?
If it is only by his choice we are saved, and he desires to save all , then why doesnt he?

Acts 10:34: ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Is vs 35 above true? In every nation he that fears God and works righteiouness is accepted? are these the terms for salvation. OR was Peter just lying because according to you we are all predestined, so in every nation there are those who are chosen, doesnt matter what you do. How can you swallow this foolishness.

 

[cfultz3]

Feedme,

I am not clear as to what you mean here, will you clarify:

Yup, that decribes again those who were predestined before the world began, these are the ones God knew would use their freedom of choice and humble themselves and accept Christ.

How can God not know who will use thier freewill choice? To me, this is what it seems you are saying, "we are predestined because God knew who would chose Jesus"? If God knows, would that not then be predestined? Anyway, will you explain. thanks

 

[Tombo]

What is this chapter talking about? Is it giving the message that there is no one earth that will choose to do God and follow Christ? No, read the context: Paul is telling the Gentiles like in chapter 11 not to be high minded and think God chose them over the Jews because they were so much better and deseriving:

Romans 3:9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

He is quoting from Psalms to show the Gentiles, it is not because they were so righteous that God chose to let them be a part of his plan. He applies Psalm to them, to show their condition, all the earth's condition, no one is righteous enough for God's grace. Same message in EPH 2 concerning works.

You cannot use this to mean no one is able to choose good, and that is is only God that makes the choices for us. GOD is no respecter of persons, you are making him out to be such.

Isaiah 7:15: Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isaiah 7:16: For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


Again, this is not a message of no freedom of choice. It is saying no one can come unless drawn by the Father. How does he draw us? The same way he calls us:
II Thessalonians 2:14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why does he call us by the gospel?
Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If the choice is already made for us, then the gospel is not the power of salvation.

God draws us by the gospel of Chirst, without God, their would be no gospel. It is granted to us by God to come to him through Chirst, that is the meaning of John 6:65: there is no other way granted but by Christ. This has nothing to do with what your trying to use it for.


This is speaking fo the physical births of Jacob and Esau but using them in a national sense not a physical one. When did Esau ever serve Jacob? Can you show me that please?
Go read the account, Jacob feared Esua, even when they were grown. So when did he serve the younger?
In the spiritual sense, in which thier births symbolized, he did serve the younger.
Same sense in which Malichi spoke against Edom:
Malachi 1:3: And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Malachi 1:4: Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.


This again does not mean what you want it to mean.
God's purpose what to Glorify his name among Egypt and the Hebrew slaves.
Pharoah had freedom of choice, yet no matter which choice he made God's purpose would be fulfilled, his name would be glorified:

If Pharoah would have chosen to let the isrealites go, then God would be glorified, the Pharoah has obeyed the God of Israel.

If he did not choose to let them go, as he did choose, God's name was still glorfied.

God hardned his heart through his word. He gave that word to Moses. God still hardens our hearts through his word, when those who hear are offened, and hate it. Yet it is by their choice just as Pharoah.



No my understanding of Predestination is knowing it is false doctrine that makes God a repsector of persons and really does not even make sense when you get to the root of it. It is condraticting to God's character, and other passages that clearly show we have freedom of Choice. You might not want to believe that but thats your own rejection.

John 3:16 refutes your belief. "whosoever bleieves in him" if your doctrine is true then John 3:16 is false because it's not whosoever, but who God already chose.

Rom 1:16 is false because the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation, but it is really God's premade choice upon every individual.

When Joshua said "choose this day whom ye will serve" the choice was not really theirs.

II Thess 1:8,9 "in flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God and obey not the Gospel" Not God is unfair, why take vengence on them, if it was God you chose for them not to be saved. They had no power to accept him, why are they being punished?

Heb 5:9 " he became the author of eternal salavation unto all that obey him", yea only the ones who were chosen, so this passage really isnt for all.

In fact the Bible is not for all if what your saying is true. And Titus 2:11 is a joke, because it says "the grace of God WHICH BRINGS SALVATION HAS APPAERD UNTO ALL MEN"

Yet it cant be the grace of God that brings salvation, but God's predetermined chose on certaian individuals, and therfore this passage means nothing.

I could go on forever, you gert the point, stop making God, his grace, his Sons sacrifice only for limited people, when the Bible says he died for the world, is that true or not?

No, He did not die for the world. You know what it means, you just don't like it. You have absolutely ignored those verses and read into them everything that you want them to say. I understand them plainly as God has presented them.
You're telling me that God sent His son to the cross with only the possibility, and not certainty, that someone would believe and be saved? I mean, after all, if the choice is ours, what if no one chose to believe? You are saying that God the Son sacrificed Himself for who knows who. It could well be (according to your free will belief) that no one would have believed, and Christ would have died in vain. Or, according to you, Jesus saw who would belive, and based on that (based on your good works) He decided He would come and sacrifice Himself??? Anyway you cut it, you are depending on what you have done, insteasd of what Christ has done for us. You just don't know how dead the human race is. Dead doesn't mean a little bit alive. If you think that God would take the steps He did in sending His Son to die for those whom He knew would believe, you make God a slave to save you based on your good work of believeing.
You also have a problem with your understand of the word "all". It must be read in context, and with the understanding of the clear verses that show that God is the one who saves us out of His own goodness and grace. People always quote the verse that "God wants all men to be saved." If He wanted all men to be saved, they would be saved, it has nothing to do with them not choosing Him. It means that God has chosen to use means (preaching) to bring His gospel to His elect, and that he doesn't want for any of His elect to perish but come to a knowledge of the truth. It must be so according to all of the verses I've shown you in Romans. It is like the verse that says, "Just as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." Even by your own beliefs you know that can't be true. We know without a doubt that the first "all" means all men, because we all die. But the second "all" couldn't possibly mean that all men will be made alive in Christ. It means that all who God chooses to save will be made alive in Christ.
Give all glory to God. Don't accuse Him of unrighteousness, as Paul rhetorically answered in Romans, for choosing whomever He wills to choose. He owes us nothing but wrath and destruction, and you want to base your forgiveness on your "accepting" Him.
And please explain the following:

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
It doesn't say that as many as God saw would belive were appointed to eternal life, but as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

I am not angry with you on this issue, because I used to hold to it myself many years ago. But after reading the clear witness of God's word, I could no longer hold to human choice as the basis of salvation. It simply isn't true, and it insults God's sovereignty over all things and people.

God bless.

Tom

 

[feedm3]

Feedme,

How can God not know who will use thier freewill choice?

I never said God knew who would use their free will, (of course I am not saying he does not either because God knows all things).

He knew that all would sin, he knew that he would send his son to die for those sins (the lamb slain before the world began)

for the sins of those who will accept him through their free will - Jn 1:13 "as many as received him..."

he knew there would be those who would accept him, they are the elect.


If there were none to accecept him, he would have known that, there would have been no point in sending Chirst, and who knows maybe he would have destroyed us all. But he did know there would be those who would obey the gospel of Christ.

To me, this is what it seems you are saying, "we are predestined because God knew who would chose Jesus"? If God knows, would that not then be predestined? Anyway, will you explain. thanks

If God knew who would chose him before they did, I dont know. But If God did know or didnt know it does not change the fact that we made the decision to follow him.

God knew there would be those who would make that decision to follow Him, that is not predestination as some are teaching it. Predestination in the sense they are teaching says God made the choice of who would accept him, not the individual. That is where I dont agree.

 

[cfultz3]

You both are giving good points on freewill and God's sovereignty in choosing the elect. So, may I ask you now Tom, what is your definition of freewill?

 

[Tombo]

Feedme,




I never said God knew who would use their free will, (of course I am not saying he does not either because God knows all things).

He knew that all would sin, he knew that he would send his son to die for those sins (the lamb slain before the world began)

for the sins of those who will accept him through their free will - Jn 1:13 "as many as received him..."

he knew there would be those who would accept him, they are the elect.


If there were none to accecept him, he would have known that, there would have been no point in sending Chirst, and who knows maybe he would have destroyed us all. But he did know there would be those who would obey the gospel of Christ.


If God knew who would chose him before they did, I dont know. But If God did know or didnt know it does not change the fact that we made the decision to follow him.

God knew there would be those who would make that decision to follow Him, that is not predestination as some are teaching it. Predestination in the sense they are teaching says God made the choice of who would accept him, not the individual. That is where I dont agree.

Why don't you finish reading John 1:13 "Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You didn't even realize it, but your use of this verse proves my very point that it's not mans choice or exertion that saves them. They are saved because they are born of God from the foundation of the world.
Give God all the glory. We have nothing in our hands to bring to Him, it is only by His free grace in Christ that He saved those whom He chose to save from all eterntiy. We have no righteousness, we have nothing to commend us to God except what Jesus has done for us. If you try to add even a speck of your own work, you have fallen from grace and are lost.
Repentance and good works will follow salvation, not the other way around.
God bless.

Tom

 

[feedm3]

No, He did not die for the world. You know what it means, you just don't like it. You have absolutely ignored those verses and read into them everything that you want them to say. I understand them plainly as God has presented them.

I have explained every verse you have tried to twist. You just dont like it. Now your just being dishonest saying I have ignored them, ummm scroll up man, I commented on the verses, and even explained them to you, I guess you didnt read them.

You Say: "no, he did not die for the world"

Christ says:
John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 6:33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Which should I believe Chirst or you?
You're telling me that God sent His son to the cross with only the possibility, and not certainty, that someone would believe and be saved? I mean, after all, if the choice is ours, what if no one chose to believe?

Yea or what if a comet came and killed us all before we could? Really is that your reasoning? God knew there would be those who chose to accept him, thats why they are predestined for heaven. God did not make them accept Chirst.

You are saying that God the Son sacrificed Himself for who knows who. It could well be (according to your free will belief) that no one would have believed, and Christ would have died in vain. Or, according to you, Jesus saw who would belive, and based on that (based on your good works) He decided He would come and sacrifice Himself???

Does God know everything or not? Do you think that God blindly made the plan of salvation, and redemptiokn not knowing if it would work or not. Are you saying that because God was not certian it would work, he foced some to beoleive and others not to? Do you hear how foolish this is? Is He all powerful?

Anyway you cut it, you are depending on what you have done, insteasd of what Christ has done for us.

Straw man, never said that. I am depending on the blood of Chirst for salvation. I am also believing His warnings agains me living in sin.
You are not putting your trust in Christ, you think God forces us to believe because he could not think of a plan that would work for certain. So he forced some to be saved. Why did he not force al to be saved? That is his desire? Why does he not do what he desires? Do you feel you were chosen to be saved?
How pridful can that be, you rant about works, but the feel you are a chosen individual by God to be saved. Was that dession based on somethign you did? Or did God just blindly pick and choose who to save, did he filp a coin? What makes you saved, I would love to hear the answer to that one. Dont say the blood of Chirst, tell me why God chose you for salvation but not others.

You just don't know how dead the human race is. Dead doesn't mean a little bit alive. If you think that God would take the steps He did in sending His Son to die for those whom He knew would believe, you make God a slave to save you based on your good work of believeing.

Duty is not a work. So why are you saved? Or are you not sure your saved?

Yes God is a slave because he said "whosoever believes in him shall have eternal life" making Him a slave.
That is seriously the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If you beleive in God you make him a slave. So I guess Atheists are freeing him?

You also have a problem with your understand of the word "all". It must be read in context, and with the understanding of the clear verses that show that God is the one who saves us out of His own goodness and grace.

Really and "whosoever"? What does that mean in the context of "God so loved the world?"
Lets see the world = all who live in the world
whosoever = all in the world who will believe

Theres the context for you, but I guess that passage is false too.

People always quote the verse that "God wants all men to be saved." If He wanted all men to be saved, they would be saved, it has nothing to do with them not choosing Him. It means that God has chosen to use means (preaching) to bring His gospel to His elect, and that he doesn't want for any of His elect to perish but come to a knowledge of the truth.
This is blasephy man. Your saying God does not care for all, only his elect, and it's those who he does not want to perish. If they are chosen by him, they wont perish, what the point of the passage?
II Pet 3:9 your version:
God is not willing that any of the ones he chose should perish, but that all who he as chosen will come to repentance:

Does that make any sense. Why do the only the chosen need to repent? if they are chosen already, why is God even saying this?

God's version
II Pet 3:9 - Not willing that ANY should perish but ALL come to repentance.

God's version makes more sense.

It must be so according to all of the verses I've shown you in Romans. It is like the verse that says, "Just as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." Even by your own beliefs you know that can't be true. We know without a doubt that the first "all" means all men, because we all die. But the second "all" couldn't possibly mean that all men will be made alive in Christ. It means that all who God chooses to save will be made alive in Christ.

You dont understand Romans one bit. It is to Gentiles about the Jews for the most part. There is no restriction of choice in this book.

Give all glory to God. Don't accuse Him of unrighteousness, as Paul rhetorically answered in Romans, for choosing whomever He wills to choose. He owes us nothing but wrath and destruction, and you want to base your forgiveness on your "accepting" Him.

Lol Like I said, what do you base your salvation on? I know you will say God. But why you and not others?
You are trustin wholly in that God chose you for some reason over others. My friend you have missed the entire point of Romans, in that the message was not to think like that.

And please explain the following:

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
It doesn't say that as many as God saw would belive were appointed to eternal life, but as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

I did see above post

I am not angry with you on this issue, because I used to hold to it myself many years ago. But after reading the clear witness of God's word, I could no longer hold to human choice as the basis of salvation. It simply isn't true, and it insults God's sovereignty over all things and people.

Well I am sorry you turned from the truth unto a lie. Look man, your forced to disagree with plain scripture, example John 3:16.
I am not Anrgy either, I hope you turn away from this teaching. It is serious error and bashes God.

 

[feedm3]

Why don't you finish reading John 1:13 "Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You didn't even realize it, but your use of this verse proves my very point that it's not mans choice or exertion that saves them. They are saved because they are born of God from the foundation of the world.
Give God all the glory. We have nothing in our hands to bring to Him, it is only by His free grace in Christ that He saved those whom He chose to save from all eterntiy. We have no righteousness, we have nothing to commend us to God except what Jesus has done for us. If you try to add even a speck of your own work, you have fallen from grace and are lost.
Repentance and good works will follow salvation, not the other way around.
God bless.

Tom

Wrong again man. John 1:13 shows that these who accept Christ are reborn as Christ tries to explain to Nicodemus in chatper 3. NOt reborn by the flesh, not from man, but by God and his will. It is God's will that those who choose him and obey are reborn spiritually and cleansed from their sins. This in no way helps your doctrine. The Gospel in the invitaion to all people, not some all. I hope you realize the serious ramifications of what you teach.

 

[feedm3]

Matthew 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The Jews "would not" their choice. God did not make this choice for them. They chose it "and ye would not".

John 5:39: ¶Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:40: And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Agian, this passage shows who at fault for not coming to Chirst - "and YE will not come to me". If choice made by God, this is not their fault. Why are they being chastized for somethig they cannot control. Is Christ just trying to place the blame on someone else besides God?

Revelation of John 22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

These easy to understand passages are deathblows to your doctrine. You are forced to change the meaning of even these passages that a kid can understand.
But nevertheless, explain them if you will.

 

[Tombo]

You both are giving good points on freewill and God's sovereignty in choosing the elect. So, may I ask you now Tom, what is your definition of freewill?

Hello, my friend,
You bring up a good point. Some people may think that with all of my talk about not having any power to believe, that I'm teaching we have no free will at all. When mankind fell in Adam, we lost our free will to choose good in the sense of doing anything pleasing to God for our salvation. But man can, and does, have free will to choose who he will marry, what job he wants to pursue, what house he wants to buy, etc. My point is only about spiritual things. We must see things from both perspectives, God's and ours. From our point of view, yes, the gospel call goes out to everyone, and eveyone is commanded to believe. When I share the gospel with someone, I don't say, "look, I have some wonderful news for you, but you won't believe it if you're not one of God's elect." No way!!!! I don't know who God's elect are and it's none of my business. In fact, the whole doctrine of election and predestination is not meant to limit God's love or forgiveness (from our perspective), but to keep us in our place, to make us remember from where we've fallen and who it is that has the only power to save us.

But as far as any righteousness in God's sight for our salvation, we have none. I will refer you to Romans 6:20-23 "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and it's end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Isn't it ironic that when we become slaves, we become free!!!! We must become slaves of God in order to have free will to do the good that we lost at the fall. This verse cleary says that when we were slaves to sin (unsaved) we were free regarding righteousness. So how could we, who are slaves to sin, make a choice for God if God doesn't move first to save us? But look what God says once we are saved: "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to santification (repentance and good works), and it's end, eternal life!!!!" Do you see how the sanctification comes after we are saved?
Praise be to God!!! It's wonderfulness is even hitting me afresh right now!!!!
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[Tombo]

Wrong again man. John 1:13 shows that these who accept Christ are reborn as Christ tries to explain to Nicodemus in chatper 3. NOt reborn by the flesh, not from man, but by God and his will. It is God's will that those who choose him and obey are reborn spiritually and cleansed from their sins. This in no way helps your doctrine. The Gospel in the invitaion to all people, not some all. I hope you realize the serious ramifications of what you teach.

I've read all of your posts and it just doesn't wash with scripture. Like I said, I'm not angry because I have been where you are. I too thought I had to defend God's honor against those who would dare teach that God limits His slavation to those whom He chooses. I thought it was a teaching that made God unfair. And then, slowly on, I started to see how fallen and evil mankind is, and that if God didn't move in a person's heart, they would never believe and trust in Him for salvation. Indeed, they would not even want anything to do with God. We were all like Adam and Eve fleeing from the presence of God. Remember how Jeremiah said "man's heart is desperately wicked", and how God needs to give us "a heart of flesh in place of our heart of stone."
I pray that God makes these things clearer and clearer to you. I have said some things to you that were unkind and wrong, and I apologize. I know that you are only speaking of what you think the truth is. I get overly zealous sometimes and say things I ought not to say.
God bless, my friend. I am too happy right now to do anything but thank God for His free and wonderful grace in Christ Jesus!!!!

Tom