did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

JaumeJ · Jul 11, 2012

If you believe Yeshua, then perhaps reading or rereading several of the Prophets will answer these questions for you, Hosea, Isaiah, Zacharia, Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, and more if you wish. These all elaborate far better than I ever could in this forum, that is without cutting and pasting the entire Book of Holy Scriptures, but all one needs do in the stead of this would be simple to suggest reading the Word. Perhaps the study of varied schools of thought, academia, etc. is beneficial to those who are not satisfied with the simple presentation of the Word on these subjects. I am quite pleased taking the Word for as it is written. I did post the world would change in an instant, and this from the Word, not from my small abilities. With that writing is expressed there would be new heaven and a new earth, but all of this is in the Word and more for any who truly wish to know more.......in faith.

becausehedied · Jul 11, 2012

This is a brief commentary that I have written on Matthew 24. Feel free to dismember, argue, or whatever you see fit. This is for informational purpose only. You do not have to agree, but search out the Scripters, for in them and them alone are the answers.

DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE WHOLE WORLD?

OR

DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE JEWISH ORDER?

Mat 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

1. In chapter 23 Jesus ended the chapter speaking of Jerusalem and how He wished that they had listened to Him.
A. In Matthew 23:36, Jesus stated that all the things that He had said would befall that generation.
1. In verse 38, Christ stated that “Your house is left to you desolate.”
A. Implying that the temple which at one time was “God’s house” was no longer His house.
2. When Christ departed the Temple in verse 1 of chapter 24, He would never again set
foot in it.
2. The purpose of the disciples showing Christ the buildings of the temple, may include the idea
of showing Him the magnificence and the strength of it.
A. This would include the large stones and the integrity of which it was built.
B. This is reinforced in the next verse.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

1. Christ then informs the disciples that not one stone that was standing would be left in the position of which it was in at that moment.
A. No doubt this would have been a hard thing to grasp.
B. Especially since in the Jewish mind the temple was their most prized possession.

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

1. The disciples then came to Jesus to inquire as to when the temple would be destroyed.
A. They also wanted to know what signs would give warning to these things happening.
B. The phrase end of the age (world KJV), is often interpreted as being the end of the entire physical world.
1. However, the Greek word used is “AION” and not “KOSMOS.”
A. “AION”—“Properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).” (Strongs)
C. The disciples in essence would have been asking, when will the end of this “age” (world)
as we know it going to happen.
2. The disciples at this point did not understand all that was going to happen to Christ or how
the Kingdom was going to be (cf. Acts 1:6), so why would they even thing about the total
destruction of the entire world?
A. Also, what would they have been most concerned about?
1. The end of the entire world?
2. Or, the destruction the complete destruction of the temple, which would be a complete end to their way of life?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

1. Jesus then commences to answer their questions.
A. First, He informs them to let know one deceive them.

Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

1. Many will rise up and claim to be the Christ, and they will trick many in to thinking that He had come.

Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

1. Wars and rumors of wars will be heard.
A. Christ tells them to not worry because these things must take place.
2. However, this does not mean the end is there.

Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

1. These things are going to happen, but these only look to the beginning of what is going to happen.

Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

1. Who is the they in this verse?
A. It could be all forces that are opposed to Christianity.
B. Or, more precisely the Jews who engaged in killing the messengers sent by God to them (Matthew 23:34-35).
2. Indeed many hated the disciples, but none more than the Jews.
A. The disciples were going about teaching the end of the Jewish system and preaching in a new order (i.e. Christianity).

Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

1. Many were going to be offended at the teachings they were hearing.
A. Some who were teaching the end of the Jewish system would begin betraying one another to save their own necks.
B. Even to the point of hating one another.

Mat 24:11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

1. At this point when there was disunity among the disciples, false prophets would take advantage of the situation.
A. They would use this disunity to deceive many, about what was happening.
B. This maybe illustrated in the epistles of which Paul wrote, refuting the teachings of the Judiazing teachers.
1. The same problem that was addressed in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15).
2. These teachers were teaching that one must adhere to the Law of Moses.

Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

1. Because of these events there was going to be many problems.
A. Even to the point of many losing their love for God, and for their fellow man.

Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

1. Only those who endure all that was happening would emerge victorious.
A. Saved from what?
B. The context demands being saved from the impending doom of Jerusalem.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

1. Christ then says that this gospel will be preacher.
A. Paul would write, “if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.” (Colossians 1:23)
B. The date of this writing would have been around 62-64 AD.
1. This would have been 6 -8 years before the destruction of Jerusalem.
2. Chris tis clear that the end (destruction of Jerusalem) would not happen until the gospel was
preached in all the world.
A. The Greek word for world in this verse is “OIKOUMENE.”
1. Feminine participle; land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world. (Strongs)

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

1. The “abomination of desolation” spoken of in this verse refers to the Roman Army.
A. This is confirmed by Luke’s account (Luke 21:20).
2. One may also compare Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

1. In context this is told to those who are in Jerusalem.
A. When they saw the “abomination of desolation” the Christians that knew what it meant were to flee the city.
1. Cf. Luke 21:20
B. Look records that armies would surround Jerusalem.
1. This would be its desolation.

Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

1. When the opportunity to flee was present, the people were not to tarry.
A. They were to flee in haste.

Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

1. During this time period it would be difficult on those who were pregnant or nursing.
A. This due to the travel that would have to come, if they were to leave the city for safety.

Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

1. The disciples were told to pray that their flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
A. It was during the winter the mountains would be cold and frozen.
B. If it happened on the Sabbath the gates of the city would be closed, thus hindering their evacuation.
2. This also indicates that Jesus did not know the exact day or hour this would take place.
A. Cf. Matthew 24:36.

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

1. At this point there would be a tribulation unlike anything tribulation that had ever happened or would ever happen.
A. It would be hard times for the saints, but especially for those who were not followers of Jesus, who would not heed his warnings.

Mat 24:22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

1. Christ makes it clear that unless something happened to shorten this terrible time no one would survive.
A. However, for the elect’s sake some would happen.
B. History records that Rome came upon the city and sieged it, but had to pull back for a time because of internal wars in the empire.
Mat 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

1. The disciples are then warned that there would be those who would make light of the situation.
A. These false teachers would try to trick people into believing that Christ had returned.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

1. These false Christ and prophets would do marvelous things.
A. They would strive to deceive everyone, even followers of Christ.
B. Cf. this to what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:1-4.

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.

1. Christ is simply stating that He had given them adequate warning.
A. Thus, there was no reason for them to be deceived.

becausehedied · Jul 11, 2012

Continued:

Mat 24:26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

1. Again do not believe the false prophets.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1. This is the reason why they were not to heed the teachings of the false chrsits and prophets.
A. When judgment came on Jerusalem it would be sure and quick.
B. This is illustrated by Christ use of lightning.
2. This is why they were not to heed the false teachers.
A. Because when the time came there would not be any time to go looking for him.
3. Verse 26, 27 also illustrate that this coming was not a physical literal coming of Christ.
A. One would not be able to go out and locate Him.
B. Why because this was a coming in judgment.

Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

1. Christ uses the term carcass in reference to Jerusalem.
A. It is where the dead object is that the eagles (buzzards) gather.
B. Thus, the buzzards maybe referencing the Romans armies.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

1. There is no reason to make these verses apply to a different time.
A. It is apparent that Christ still has Jerusalem in mind.
1. Ref. Matthew 24:21.
2. Immediately after the tribulation these events would take place.
A. The tribulation is most likey reference to the siege and overthrow and Jerusalem by Rome.

Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1. When these events occur then the sign of the Son of Man would appear.
A. Josephus (a Jewish Historian) records strange phenomenon’s happening during this time period.
2. Notice that the Son of Man (Christ) would come on the Clouds of heaven.
A. All tribes of the earth would mourn.
1. Cf. Revelation 1:7.
B. He would come with power and great glory.
1. Why?
2. He was bringing Judgment on those who had rejected Him.
3. He was bringing Judgment on those who had crucified Him and not repented—Acts 2.

Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1. The reference to angels may refer to his earthly messengers and not angelic beings.
A. These messengers would go forth and gather all the elect from every corner of the earth.
2. Regardless to what this references, it was something to take place at the destruction of
Jerusalem.
A. This is still in the context of verse 29, 30.

Mat 24:32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

1. Christ then uses a parable to help his disciples understand.
A. Notice though Christ makes a point to say that when you see the fig tree put “forth leaves, you know that summer is NEAR” (emp. added).
B. Near means close at hand, or about to come.
1. This prompts Christ following statement.

Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!

1. When the disciples saw all the things previously spoken by Christ the time was NEAR.
A. Not that it was happening, but that it was close at hand, about to happen.

Mat 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

1. Here a time frame is placed on all that has been said.
A. The things that Christ had spoken where to take place during that generation.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

1. The context has not changed.
A. Christ makes it clear that what he had stated was going to happen.
2. In the Old Testament “heaven and earth” reference the change of political powers or systems.
A. It is this author’s conviction that this is what is meant with this statement.
3. The old system of Judaism would be replaced beyond any shadow of doubt with Christianity.
A. The physical systems would pass away to a spiritual system.
4. While this author does not, nor ever would, deny that the church and Christianity began on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
A. The church and Christianity was confirmed with absolute power and authority when Jerusalem was destroyed.
1. All records were destroyed.
2. The place of worship was destroyed.
A. Thus, showing the importance of Christ statement in John 4:21.
5. The reader is asked to reference the statement of Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-42 and its immediate context.

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

1. There is still not need to change the subject of what is under consideration.
A. Christ had already alluded to the fact that He did not know exactly when these things would happen.
1. Matthew 24:19, 20.
2. The point is though there would be signs leading up to the event, the exact day or hour
was not known.
1. The only one who knew was the Father.
A. Ref. Mark 13:29-32.
3. The reader is also asked to look back at Christ statement in Matthew 24:32, 33.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1. Here Christ is illustrating the coming that He has been speaking about throughout Matthew 24.
A. Ref. Matthew 24:27, 30.
2. There has been nothing to force a change of context to this point.
3. Some say that since there is a change from “those days” to “that day” that Christ has changed subject.
A. However, there is no reason to think thus.
1. Christ has simply stated all the things that would happen in “those days” leading up to “that day” specifically.
A. This meaning the exact day it would take place.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

1. Everything would continue just as it always had, as if nothing had changed or was going to change.

Mat 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1. Just as in the days on Noah, the people were warned; they had been told that a flood was coming.
A. However, the people would not heed Noah’s message.
2. Christ likens the days of the disciples to Noah’s day.
A. The Jews were going to continue to do as they had always done.
1. Worshipping in the temple.
A. Animal sacrifices.
B. Feast days.
C. Marrying.
B. They were going to continue doing everything the way they always had.
3. However, when the time came they would have the same fate as those who did not heed the warnings of Noah.

becausehedied · Jul 11, 2012

Countiued:

Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

1. This author admits that this verse and the previous verse are difficult.
A. With that said, these two verses pose a possible problem for either view of Matthew 24.
1. Whether one sees Matthew 24 dealing entirely with the destruction of Jerusalem.
2. Or dealing with the complete end of the world.
A. If this is speaking of the end of the world, where are the people going to be left.
2. If this is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem.
A. This could mean that it would affect everyone in some manner, no matter man or
woman and no matter where the person was employed.
B. This could also reference that during the over throw, some would be taken into
captivity and some would be left.
C. Or this could mean one would be killed and the other would not.
3. These verses are also directly tied to the following admonition.
A. So this could reference the idea to not be so taken in by what you are doing that you
fail to see the approaching doom.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

1. Notice that the admonition here is to watch because one did not know the hour the Lord is coming.
A. This references that though they could see the approaching time, the exact hour it would happen was unknown.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

1. Christ now uses an illustration to prove the point.
A. If a person knew the exact hour the thief would come, he would not allow his house to broken into.

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1. Therefore, informs the person to look back and see what it is there for.
A. Christ is still speaking about the coming of the Son of Man.
1. Ref. Matthew 24:27, 30, 37, 39.
2. There has still been no definite reason to change the context of what is being spoken about.
3. The point is for those to be ready.
A. Yes they would see the signs.
B. Yes they would know the time was near.
C. No they did not know the exact day or hour.
1. Thus, the warning to always be on alert.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.

1. The faithful and wise servant is the one who heeded the warnings of Christ.
A. These are the ones who when they saw the approaching doom did not wait till the last minute, but heeded the warnings a left Jerusalem when opportunity afforded itself.

Mat 24:47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.

1. The ones who listened and heeded would be rewarded.

Mat 24:48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1. These final verses speak of the ones who see all the events transpiring, but begin to wander if anything is really going to happen (Ref. 2 Peter 3:1-6).
A. These grow weary in waiting and being to indulge with the ones who never heeded the warnings.
B. Thus, the outcome for them will be the same for all who did not listen to what had been spoken to them.
2. The master (Christ) would then come when they least expected it because they had
ceased to be on the alert.

IMINJC · Jul 11, 2012

MEECHA

YOU SAID: So I do not misunderstand you IMINJC where exactly do you get from the text that Jesus stops talking about the temple then standing and start talking about a future temple?The text says the disciples " came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. " Its refers to the temple then standing...where did Jesus take the discussion of that temple to that of a future temple....please can you show this in the text?

Yes I will...As I said, Jesus had already made it very clear that Herod's Temple was coming down during the disciples generation and he had given the reasons why it was coming down. When Jesus began to answer the disciples questions in Matthew 24:4 he addressed the disciples second question "What is the sign of your coming." All the signs that he gives in Matthew 24 are signs of his "coming" not of the destruction of Herod's Temple. Since there was no visible return of Jesus as is stated in Matthew 24 during the disciples generation, we must conclude that the signs given in Matthew 24 have yet to be fulfilled.

Now concerning the future Temple..... When Jesus made the following statement in Matthew 24:15...

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

He deferred all authority over to Daniel on the subject of "The Abomination of Desolation" which is found in Daniel 9 when he gives his 70 weeks prophecy; I like the fact that it then states "whoever reads let him understand." Jesus wanted his disciples in that generation as well as his disciples in future generations to understand what is written there about this event, because it is a key "sign" that would indicate that his second physical and visible return to earth is closer than close.

In Daniels 70 weeks prophecy he says that a foreigner who the scripture refers to as the "prince" will cause the sacrifices at the Temple to cease, then he will set up an image in a wing of the Temple to be worshiped. This is the abomination that will bring desolation to that future holy city of Jerusalem and the future Temple. I say future because nothing even remotely close to Daniels prophecy occured during the disciples generation...and since the destruction of Herod's Temple, there has never been another Temple errected in it's place to fulfill what is written in the Book of Daniel. That's why it has to be a future Tmple built in Jerusalem. So Herod's Temple in Matthew 23 is an entirely different Temple than the one that Daniel talks about in the Book of Daniel.

Ariel82 · Jul 11, 2012

JaumeJ said:

doesn't change the fact that God doesn't speak through pots and pans and other nonliving man made things. like idols of old. God does speak upon the matter...

Zechariah 10:2
For the idols speak delusion; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore the people wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because there is no shepherd.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

if people want to chase after a different Jesus and preach a different gospel, that is their choice.

me I'm going to frollick behind my Shepherd who has ALREADY defeated Satan and cast him out of Heaven. Who has ALREADY nailed to the cross the requirements of the Law and who have FULFILLED the prophecies in Scripture.

JESUS is GOD Almighty. If you can't hear that then you worship a DIFFERENT God and a DIFFERENT Christ.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Ariel82 · Jul 11, 2012

1 Timothy 4
12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit,[b] in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. 15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

meecha · Jul 11, 2012

becausehedied said:

Thanks for that ...your labours are a real blessing and I found myself in agreement with thewhole thrust of your argument.

peterT · Jul 11, 2012

1still_waters said:

Yes I like to quote that verse because it speaks volumes.
Rv10;19 The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

1still_waters said:

Is that you putting your twist to that verse?

Like Matt24 it doesn’t need your interruption as it interprets its self

But you would know that if you were one of Gods sheep

John10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

This is how it reads and it doesn’t need your twist.

3-Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 -TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40-the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Hurricane1 · Jul 11, 2012

cronjecj said:

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is
in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret
chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and
shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming
of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles
be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch
is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that
summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know that it is near, even at the doors.

..then in verse 34 He said something very interesting,

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation
shall not pass, till all these things be
fulfilled

"this generation" Jesus was referring to was the
generation in His time, wasn't it ?

if so then Christ did return (in Spirit) in that particular
generation's time thus receiving His Holy Spirit from
that time onwards as promised.

His kingdom has come, it is in us. This is a spiritual
resurrection.

when we die we receive heavenly bodies which could
be the bodily resurrection Paul was speaking about.

if this is all so then the scripture that states: generation
after generation, but the world abides forever is literal
forever.

2 resurrection,

receiving of the Holy Spirit = spiritual
resurrection

death of the corruptible body = incorruptible
bodily resurrection

The parable is the key here. The "fig tree" is Israel. The generation that see's Israel come into existence again will not pass before the Son of God returns. In other words, His return is very near.

Ariel82 · Jul 11, 2012

peterT said:

wow seriously?

You need to check yourself.

James 3

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Romans 13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Abiding · Jul 11, 2012

peterT said:

You think so....justification because others do it?
You call people hypocrites? ok Peter as long as you have yourself fooled.

peterT · Jul 12, 2012

meecha said:

Is that you putting a special extra twist to the bible?

The end of the world/age has not happened yet.

And the angels have not come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just YET.

It has NOT been like the food in the days of Noah yet

One has NOT been taken yet and the other left yet.

And it’s NOT been the worst it’s ever been since the beginning of the world, and nor ever will be. Yet.
Thus the end of the world/age has not happened yet.

Matt13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matt24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

peterT · Jul 12, 2012

Ariel82 said:

wow seriously?

You need to check yourself.

Romans 13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

And you need to check yourself.

Good to obey that verse until it goes against God's word

Daniel went against the kings commandment when he did not bow to the kings image because it was against God's word.

peterT · Jul 12, 2012

Abiding said:

If it's good enough for Jeremiah them it's good enough for us don’t you think, after all it was God’s word and his will.

Because Jesus is the word the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.

Abiding said:

He was being a hypocrite or would you have me be silent

1still_waters · Jul 12, 2012

peterT said:

*sighs*

Like I said. I'm done going back and forth with you over these set of verses.

Someone did make me aware of this comment you said to me and ..just wow...

I hear His voice every time i open the Bible, as do you.

You really should check yo-self though before you go making statements like that.

1still_waters · Jul 12, 2012

I'm sure some of our friends who don't want to impose 'twists' to the Bible, probably have inserted 2000+ year gaps in to portions of scripture where it's clearly not there. I'm sure some of the same friends don't take near/soon/at hand at their face value to their original hearers either.

meecha · Jul 12, 2012

peterT said:

Peter calm down. PLease conduct yourself in a way that befits your standing in Christ. You are very worked up because you are finding that what you have been taught is not necessarily shared by others ....act your age please.
Now please address my comments properly. Is there a distinction between the words for age and world in the English? Obviously we can talk about the "age of reason" or "the steam age". So we have two greek words here which do not necessarily mean the same thing. That is all I am asking you to consider. Please address that point ....it is not me that is "twisting" scripture. If you refuse to acknowledge a legitimate point re the language of the text you should butt out of the discussion and do a study on basic hermaneutics.

1;The end of the age came when the temple was destroyed...the end of the Old Covenant age.

2;The messengers ( angelos) of the gospel went around the world seperating the wicked from the righteous through the preaching of the gospel

3;The siege of Jerusalem was like the days of Noah. The righteoous escaped because they listened to God whilst the apostate Jews were overcome by the "flood"...a well known biblical idiom for an invading army.

4;One was taken,one was left.

5;This was the worst catastrophe ever to happen to the Jewish nation...they lost their land,the temple and thus their relationship with God.

Peter...do try to think outside your 21st century parametres. The texts of the Bible are not just written to us...they are written to their contempory hearers and if you do not know what the text meant to them ...you can not then begin to apply it to us living now.

meecha · Jul 12, 2012

IMINJC said:

Wow!! So many assumptions here.

Assertion. Jesus did not answer the disciples first question.

Answer; This is unproovable from the text. Jesus is well known for making it a point when he does not answer a question. Acts 1.8 for example or when Jesus asks the Pharisees about John the Baptists ministry. Jesus states clearly that He is not answering the question. So you are making an unfounded assertion in saying that Jesus does not answer the first question.BUT...
Jesus does then talk about the abomination in the "Holy Place" which we know to be the temple ...so Jesus does connect the signs of His coming with the temple. But you say it's some other temple. Jesus does not say it is another temple and since he constantly addresses the disciples ...between v 4-15 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" six times. So Jesus never gives us or the disciples any clue whatsoever that He has stopped talking about the temple then standing and started talking about some future temple...I can not give you any credit here for dealing with what the text actually says IMIIJC! You simply don't deal with the text.Instead you pursue a theory.

Now I do understand what you want to say about Daniel 9. But again you do not deal with the text of Daniel 9. Daniel 9 ascribes 70 weeks...490 years..for the coming of the Messiah.490 years takes us to the 1st century. And that is the time we are talking about. I appreciate that you want to impose a "parenthetical gap" between the 69th and 70th week. If ever one could talk about a "twist" I think that one is up there with the Jehovah Witnesses. NOTHING in the text justifies this assumption.

Josephus records that the Roman armies set up their enseigns on the temple when they took control of the mount. This is a replica of the abomination that occurred under Antiochus which Jesus is referencing to the disciples....so ....when the Roman prince sets up an abomination that is the sign that Jesus has come...ie executed judgement. "Coming" in this context is not visual.

Is 19.1
A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

This refers to a war between Eygpt and Assyria and God is going to judge Eygpt as a sign to those in Judah who are placing their trust in an aliance with Eygpt....the Eygptians did not see God visibly riding on a cloud...it is idiomatic. Thus Jesus ( with possibly this very verse in mind) says to Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see the judgement of God on the temple. And that will be a sign that the Messiah has ascended to the right hand (ie the place of ultimate authority)

So the abomination did happen in the 1st century and there is no need to look for a future one.

you say

I say future because nothing even remotely close to Daniels prophecy occured during the disciples generation.

I have just demonstrated that the abomination occured when the Romans defiled the temple simply by being on it....that is an abomination in OT law.Jesus' coming and the destruction of the temple are one and the same thing. This is easily understood in the context of the events of 70AD.

Marcel356 · Jul 12, 2012

If you are a firm believer of the natural side of the scripture then this is a problem. For then you believe that there are men that are hundreds of years old still walking around.... or that all things have come to pass...Have they? For my self I am believer of the spiritual ,and there for ,yes He has come (Spiritually) and still dus today, [FONT=&quot]Col 1:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 2:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 2:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [/FONT]

did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

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