did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

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peterT

Guest
What gets me about dispies is yet another thing.

Jesus tells THEM that THAT temple in THEIR time would be taken down.

His disciples then ask him, what will be the signs that will take place...

Luke 21

5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 “As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down.”

7 They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the [f]sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘ I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. 9 When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately.”

Then all the stuff Jesus lists after that, tells them the signs of when THAT temple would be taken down.

Ok so the dispies read this and say the signs in this chapter refer to events 2000+ years after THAT temple was torn down!

How can signs that happen 2000+ years from THEM, be a sign TO THEM if they happened after THAT temple came down?

It's a completely insane interpretation of scripture!

Jesus said THESE STONES, they were looking at. The supposed rebuilt temple 2000+ years from then, wasn't standing then, so the THESE STONES can't be stones that weren't there.

Yet dispies say the stuff in this chapter is about events that happen 2000+ years from them, as signs to them?
Interesting how you put the emphasis on the footnote instead of the main body of the answer, so you can try and make it fit with you string theory.

When shall these things be? (The temple) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No more about the temple in that chapter, but the emphasis is on his coming and the end of the world.

Note

6, but the end is not yet.

13 he that shall endure unto the end.

14 and then shall the end come.

21 since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

27 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

37 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

39 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

42 for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

44 Son of man cometh.

46 whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 48 My lord delayeth his coming

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of.

So you can see, the emphasis is on the coming and the end of the world nothing about the temple after verse 2 and 3.


Try and keep it in context for the truth, and not to try and make it fit your string theory.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Interesting how you put the emphasis on the footnote instead of the main body of the answer, so you can try and make it fit with you string theory.

When shall these things be? (The temple) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No more about the temple in that chapter, but the emphasis is on his coming and the end of the world.

Note

6, but the end is not yet.

13 he that shall endure unto the end.

14 and then shall the end come.

21 since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

27 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

37 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

39 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

42 for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

44 Son of man cometh.

46 whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 48 My lord delayeth his coming

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of.

So you can see, the emphasis is on the coming and the end of the world nothing about the temple after verse 2 and 3.


Try and keep it in context for the truth, and not to try and make it fit your string theory.
All of those things are signs, in regards to the question of when the temple would be taken down, of which Jesus pointed to in the beginning of each portion of scripture.

Signs of a past event, can't be signs of a future event.

1.Jesus says the temple they saw would be taken down.
2.They ask for signs of when that would happen.
3.Those signs are given for THAT event, to THAT question.
 
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peterT

Guest
All of those things are signs, in regards to the question of when the temple would be taken down, of which Jesus pointed to in the beginning of each portion of scripture.

Signs of a past event, can't be signs of a future event.

1.Jesus says the temple they saw would be taken down.
2.They ask for signs of when that would happen.
3.Those signs are given for THAT event, to THAT question.
You missed a bit

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No more about the temple in that chapter, but the emphasis is on his coming and the end of the world.

You boys don’t like Jesus, if you did you would like his word.

You have not fear of God, if you did you would fear his word.

You honour him with their lips, but their hearts are far from him.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 
M

meecha

Guest
can I just ignore PeterT?

He's starting to annoy me and I know myself well enough to realize I haven't a mature answer for him at this moment....

maybe someone else will.
lol......ask him the difference between Aion and Kosmos.....he'll ignore you :D
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
You missed a bit

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No more about the temple in that chapter, but the emphasis is on his coming and the end of the world.

You boys don’t like Jesus, if you did you would like his word.

You have not fear of God, if you did you would fear his word.

You honour him with their lips, but their hearts are far from him.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
He wasn't asked about the end of the world.

He was asked about events relating to the destruction of the temple of which he had just spoken about. Two of the three major texts only show them asking about the temple! It's a HUGE leap to say he's answering questions about the end of the world.

He is giving them the signs they asked for in regards to destruction of the temple.

You're turning cloud coming, and end of the age, in to end of the world terms, simply because you impose that on the text.

No questions were asked about the end of the world or his second coming.

Reading what Jesus was talking about in the beginning, then reading the question that was asked in two of the three discourses, clearly shows they were not asking about end of time events, and Jesus wasn't addressing end of time events, because he wasn't asked about those.

As far as you saying this...

You boys don’t like Jesus, if you did you would like his word.

You have not fear of God, if you did you would fear his word.
PUHLEASE!

We fear God and his word just as much as you do. Please don't resort to these kinda of assertions. I'm just saying this as a fellow brother in Christ. Not as a mod.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
For those of us who believe much to come upon this world before Yahshua the Messiah returns we can only share that understanding.


I say to you all to remember what is written regarding the end times, even if you have come to hear a different version...

Consider without any outside influence of man, would you believe all is fulfilled?

When you first heard about the end times were you with the same understanding you believe now?


I can not explain all things written, but I trust in Almighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

I see the world is in line with the Bible.

Do you really think the evil Rebellion is limited to islam?

To deceive even the Elect they would have to pose to be the good of this world..... and needed an enemy to play out this....


The world is what you expect it to be in disobedience to Yahvah God....

Man can not know peace by his own authority... the evil ego will always be in them and will divide them...

We submit and know that Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah know what is best and with all Authority, like a child we love trust and rely on them.....

Life be a lesson learnt when we stop and say... You know best my Yahvah God always and forever.

If you say don't do let us not consider even considering doing it....
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I was quoting all of Luke 21 there. I left nothing out. Actually in Luke 21 and Mark 13, they don't ask about the time of coming and end of age. Matthew 24 is the only one where those are asked.

So we have two texts where those aren't asked, and one where it is. Which leads me to conclude those things are linked TO the temple being taken down, making it in effect ONE question.

Here are the three texts. Notice only ONE asks about the coming and end of age.

Mark 13
13 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, “Teacher, behold [a]what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and [c]James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the [d]sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21
5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 “As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down.”

7 They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the [f]sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘ I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. 9 When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately.”

Matthew 24
24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away [a]when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

-------

Everything is clearly anchored around the event of THAT temple coming down. That is what they're asking about. The additional questions in Matt 24 are anchored to the temple event.

The THESE things they are asking about is when the temple would come down, for that is the only thing Jesus was directly talking about.


wow. A nice thought except I still have issues with it.

1. Immediately preceding this, we are told of one event (singular), it is not gauranteed that either of the accounts tell us the whole message which was spoken of. And even if they did, there is no reason not to believe these men knew Christ would one day return to fulfill his prophecies and they were asking him about those things. because they already knew they were going to happen.
2. In ALL instances of the conversation Jesus had with his disciples, They as about things (plural) which will happen. So to try to place into perspective that Jesus answer can only be tied to the destruction of the temple (one event) would be faulty logic.

so what plural events are they speaking of? Why is it only Matthew tells us everything they said? i can not answer that, but I can answer this, The other two said things (plural) so all that mathew said can be included in their accounts also. we should not discount, or think Mathew made a mistake by adding two other questions.
 
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becausehedied

Guest
becausehedied

YOU SAID:the one I like the most in about the future temple, why would Christt reference a temple in the future when His diciples asked about the temple they were looking at Matthew 24:1-3.


Because as I stated, everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 was not for the disciples generation, it was for a future generation that would be chosen by his Father that would experience the signs stated in Matthew 24 concerning his second coming. The disciples generation was responsible for the signs of his first coming....and they blew it. Check this out...

The disciples were with Jesus when he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, they saw him riding into the city and the people rejoicing "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" and as soon as they were alone what did those same disciples ask?...."Master, what is the sign of your coming?" I'm surprised Jesus didn't snap and say "You just missed it you idots!...He did refer to their generation as evil though because of this. Instead of blasting them, he began to give the signs of his second coming to a more deserving generation...one that his Father will choose that will be responsible for recognizing the signs given in Mattew 24....but the Preterist view seeks to make that generation as blind as the disciples generation was.

So when they asked about the buildings of the temple Chrsit said you see these stones not one will be left upon another that shall be thrown down, but this will not happen until this temple is destroyed and another is rebuilt. I am sure they would have understood it that way...

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Chrsit diciples asked Him some specific questions and you are saying that he started telling them of something that would not happen for 1000s of years and still has not happened.

Where does it ever say that what Christ said is for a remote generation in the future.

If i asked someone a direct question about something that had just be said, I would expect the person to anwser my question, not speak about something that would happen in the far future. I am sure the diciples expected the same thing...


Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Mat 23:38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;
Mat 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

Then chapter 24 Christ describes what is going to come upon their generation.

Chapter 24 Christ is telling his followers that when you see these things get out of the city so that you are not overthrown with it.

Their sins are why the city and temple where desolated by the Roman armies.


Desolate
DESOLATE
, a.
1. Destitute or deprived of inhabitants; desert; uninhabited; denoting either stripped of inhabitants, or never having been inhabitated; as a desolate isle; a desolate wilderness.
I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. Jer 9.
2. Laid waste; in a ruinous condition; neglected; destroyed; as desolate altars; desolate towers. Ezek. Zeph.
3. Solitary; without a companion; afflicted.
Tamar remained desolate in Absaloms house. 2 Sam 13.
4. Deserted of God; deprived of comfort.
My heart within me is desolate. Psa 143.

Just so we know what the word means. Rome desolated Jerusalem. Burned it to the ground, destoyed the temple, took captives, killed many.

And all this happened to their generation, in fact about 40 years later. Which by the way is a normal span for a generation.


 
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becausehedied

Guest
becausehedied

YOU SAID:the one I like the most in about the future temple, why would Christt reference a temple in the future when His diciples asked about the temple they were looking at Matthew 24:1-3.


Because as I stated, everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 was not for the disciples generation, it was for a future generation that would be chosen by his Father that would experience the signs stated in Matthew 24 concerning his second coming. The disciples generation was responsible for the signs of his first coming....and they blew it. Check this out...

The disciples were with Jesus when he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, they saw him riding into the city and the people rejoicing "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" and as soon as they were alone what did those same disciples ask?...."Master, what is the sign of your coming?" I'm surprised Jesus didn't snap and say "You just missed it you idots!...He did refer to their generation as evil though because of this. Instead of blasting them, he began to give the signs of his second coming to a more deserving generation...one that his Father will choose that will be responsible for recognizing the signs given in Mattew 24....but the Preterist view seeks to make that generation as blind as the disciples generation was.

Sorry I missed something when was the first coming?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So when they asked about the buildings of the temple Chrsit said you see these stones not one will be left upon another that shall be thrown down, but this will not happen until this temple is destroyed and another is rebuilt. I am sure they would have understood it that way...

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Chrsit diciples asked Him some specific questions and you are saying that he started telling them of something that would not happen for 1000s of years and still has not happened.

Where does it ever say that what Christ said is for a remote generation in the future.

If i asked someone a direct question about something that had just be said, I would expect the person to anwser my question, not speak about something that would happen in the far future. I am sure the diciples expected the same thing...


Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Mat 23:38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;
Mat 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

Then chapter 24 Christ describes what is going to come upon their generation.

Chapter 24 Christ is telling his followers that when you see these things get out of the city so that you are not overthrown with it.

Their sins are why the city and temple where desolated by the Roman armies.


Desolate
DESOLATE
, a.
1. Destitute or deprived of inhabitants; desert; uninhabited; denoting either stripped of inhabitants, or never having been inhabitated; as a desolate isle; a desolate wilderness.
I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. Jer 9.
2. Laid waste; in a ruinous condition; neglected; destroyed; as desolate altars; desolate towers. Ezek. Zeph.
3. Solitary; without a companion; afflicted.
Tamar remained desolate in Absaloms house. 2 Sam 13.
4. Deserted of God; deprived of comfort.
My heart within me is desolate. Psa 143.

Just so we know what the word means. Rome desolated Jerusalem. Burned it to the ground, destoyed the temple, took captives, killed many.

And all this happened to their generation, in fact about 40 years later. Which by the way is a normal span for a generation.


Luke 21: 24:
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Can you answer a few questions?

1. When did the time of the gentiles fulfilled? or has it yet.
2. Since jerusalem will be trampled UNTIL THAT TIME, what will happen to Jerusalem when this time is fulfilled.
3. If nothing is going to happen to jerusalem at this time, why did Christ not say jerusalem will be trampled forever,

does not the fact That Christs sytates this "desolation" of jerusalem will only happen until a specific time frame not make it clear that something will change at that time ? say for example. The desolation of jerusalem will cease, and jerusalem will be restored?


 
B

becausehedied

Guest
becausehedied

YOU SAID:the one I like the most in about the future temple, why would Christt reference a temple in the future when His diciples asked about the temple they were looking at Matthew 24:1-3.


Because as I stated, everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 was not for the disciples generation, it was for a future generation that would be chosen by his Father that would experience the signs stated in Matthew 24 concerning his second coming. The disciples generation was responsible for the signs of his first coming....and they blew it. Check this out...

The disciples were with Jesus when he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, they saw him riding into the city and the people rejoicing "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" and as soon as they were alone what did those same disciples ask?...."Master, what is the sign of your coming?" I'm surprised Jesus didn't snap and say "You just missed it you idots!...He did refer to their generation as evil though because of this. Instead of blasting them, he began to give the signs of his second coming to a more deserving generation...one that his Father will choose that will be responsible for recognizing the signs given in Mattew 24....but the Preterist view seeks to make that generation as blind as the disciples generation was.
Joh 12:14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written:
Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey's colt."
Joh 12:16 His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him.

So they did understand, though not immediatly.


Matthew 23 ends with
Mat 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "


Then His diciples ask when will that coming be that you just spoke or what will the sings be.

That is why he did not say "you idiots you just missed it" because he was not refering to what had just happened.....

He was referecing what was about to happen to Jerusalem, the context does not miracoulously change from chapter 23 to 24.

Disregard the prior thread about the first coming you must be referecning his entry into Jerualem. However, his first coming was when he was born.
 
B

becausehedied

Guest
Luke 21: 24:
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Can you answer a few questions?

1. When did the time of the gentiles fulfilled? or has it yet.
2. Since jerusalem will be trampled UNTIL THAT TIME, what will happen to Jerusalem when this time is fulfilled.
3. If nothing is going to happen to jerusalem at this time, why did Christ not say jerusalem will be trampled forever,

does not the fact That Christs sytates this "desolation" of jerusalem will only happen until a specific time frame not make it clear that something will change at that time ? say for example. The desolation of jerusalem will cease, and jerusalem will be restored?
The time of the gentiles was fulfilled in the complete destruction of Jerusalem.
That verse is likely refercing the idea that God would allow the gentiles (aka. Rome) to trample the city under foot until he felt that it was sufficient.

The problem with Jerualem being restored at sometime int he future is an assumption.

When something is fullfilled in Scripture it means it is completed. It does not imply something to be completed and then restored.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The time of the gentiles was fulfilled in the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

Really, how do we come to this conclusion? can you show me where scripture states this?

That verse is likely refercing the idea that God would allow the gentiles (aka. Rome) to trample the city under foot until he felt that it was sufficient.
Well, We know the romans were in charge in that day, Yet Jesus chose to not say rome, but Gentiles. And we also know that it is still trampled under foot today by Gentile authority. So is it not still being trampled today?

Also, what is the time of the gentiles? Is it not daniels 4 kingdoms. one of which is rome?

The problem with Jerualem being restored at sometime int he future is an assumption.
It is? OT prophets say it will be restored. The assumption is that OT prophets got it wrong, or they should be taken symbolically and not literally. It is obvious the disciples did not take it symbolically. Because they asked when the end of the age will be, And jesus told them in their answer, that jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by gentiles until their "age" is completed. It all makes complete sense when you take ALL prophesu together.

When something is fullfilled in Scripture it means it is completed. It does not imply something to be completed and then restored.
I agree. It is not my assumption it has been fulfilled. The only aspect which has been fulfilled is the messiah was cut off, and the people of the future prince destroyed jerusalem. The rest has not been fulfilled yet.
 
B

becausehedied

Guest
Really, how do we come to this conclusion? can you show me where scripture states this?
Well, We know the romans were in charge in that day, Yet Jesus chose to not say rome, but Gentiles. And we also know that it is still trampled under foot today by Gentile authority. So is it not still being trampled today?

Also, what is the time of the gentiles? Is it not daniels 4 kingdoms. one of which is rome?

It is? OT prophets say it will be restored. The assumption is that OT prophets got it wrong, or they should be taken symbolically and not literally. It is obvious the disciples did not take it symbolically. Because they asked when the end of the age will be, And jesus told them in their answer, that jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by gentiles until their "age" is completed. It all makes complete sense when you take ALL prophesu together.

I agree. It is not my assumption it has been fulfilled. The only aspect which has been fulfilled is the messiah was cut off, and the people of the future prince destroyed jerusalem. The rest has not been fulfilled yet.
I ask you for Scriptures all the time and you do not give them.

Where does it say that Jerusalem will be restored, during our time period, 2000 years after it was destroyed.

God gave the Jews ample time to do what was right, that is seen all through out the OT. God's patience finally wore out and he destoryed Jerualem once for all and unshered out Judiams and ushered in Christianiy. Or should we all just revert back to Judiams whcih was a shadom of better things to come as the Hebrew writter points out over and over and over.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I ask you for Scriptures all the time and you do not give them.

Where does it say that Jerusalem will be restored, during our time period, 2000 years after it was destroyed.
2000 years? where do you get this? who said 2000 years? I did not.

Scripture tells us when these things will be, when the time of the gentiles will be fulfilled. So look at the prophesies concerning this time, and you will see. Non of it says 2000 years.


God gave the Jews ample time to do what was right, that is seen all through out the OT. God's patience finally wore out and he destoryed Jerualem once for all and unshered out Judiams and ushered in Christianiy. Or should we all just revert back to Judiams whcih was a shadom of better things to come as the Hebrew writter points out over and over and over.
God gave them time, why would he do that? he KNEW they would rebell. You make it seem as God did not know and they could somehow fool him and come to truth when he prophesied they would not/.


1. Judaism never in its entirety was about God. God did not stop it, He put it in its place, It was judaim which caused Isreal to reject Christ in the first place.
2. God prophesied they would do what they did, he prophesied he would tear down their city and it would be trampled on by gentiles, he even referenced in in his account to luke. God also prophesied he would regather his children and bring them back to jerusalem, and they would woship him, never again to worship their idols, or make transgression against him. You would ignore these prophesies, or make these prophesies not concerning isreal but the church, they were not directed to the church, only to isreal!
 
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1still_waters

Guest
wow. A nice thought except I still have issues with it.

1. Immediately preceding this, we are told of one event (singular), it is not gauranteed that either of the accounts tell us the whole message which was spoken of. And even if they did, there is no reason not to believe these men knew Christ would one day return to fulfill his prophecies and they were asking him about those things. because they already knew they were going to happen.
2. In ALL instances of the conversation Jesus had with his disciples, They as about things (plural) which will happen. So to try to place into perspective that Jesus answer can only be tied to the destruction of the temple (one event) would be faulty logic.

so what plural events are they speaking of? Why is it only Matthew tells us everything they said? i can not answer that, but I can answer this, The other two said things (plural) so all that mathew said can be included in their accounts also. we should not discount, or think Mathew made a mistake by adding two other questions.
Either way, we can be sure they've already been fulfilled, because Jesus said THIS GENERATION.

:D
 
E

edward99

Guest
Luke 21: 24:
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Can you answer a few questions?

1. When did the time of the gentiles fulfilled? or has it yet.


answer

Luke 21: 24:
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Siege of Jerusalem (70)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.

The siege ended with the sacking of the city and the destruction of its famous Second Temple. The destruction of both the first and second temples is still mourned annually as the Jewish fast Tisha B'Av. The Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, still stands in Rome.

Josephus had acted as a mediator for the Romans and, when negotiations failed, witnessed the siege and aftermath. He wrote:

Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as they were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall [surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.[2]

And truly, the very view itself was a melancholy thing; for those places which were adorned with trees and pleasant gardens, were now become desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down. Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judaea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change. For the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste. Nor had anyone who had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again. But though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it.[3]

Josephus claims that 1,100,000 people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish, and that 97,000 were captured and enslaved, including Simon bar Giora and John of Giscala.[4]

"The slaughter within was even more dreadful than the spectacle from without. Men and women, old and young, insurgents and priests, those who fought and those who entreated mercy, were hewn down in indiscriminate carnage. The number of the slain exceeded that of the slayers. The legionaries had to clamber over heaps of dead to carry on the work of extermination."[5]

Many fled to areas around the Mediterranean. Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, saying that the victory did not come through his own efforts but that he had merely served as an instrument of God's wrath.[6]


Perceptions

The Jewish Amoraim attributed the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as punishment from God for the "baseless hatred" that pervaded Jewish society at the time.[9]

Christians believe that Jesus prophesied Jerusalem's destruction (Mark 13:2) four decades earlier.


Siege of Jerusalem (70) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Since jerusalem will be trampled UNTIL THAT TIME, what will happen to Jerusalem when this time is fulfilled.
Paul c. 54AD

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 2 2For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

3. If nothing is going to happen to jerusalem at this time, why did Christ not say jerusalem will be trampled forever
See what you have to do to keep your theology going.
Why did Christ NOT say....!

does not the fact That Christs sytates this "desolation" of jerusalem will only happen until a specific time frame not make it clear that something will change at that time ?
Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


say for example. The desolation of jerusalem will cease, and jerusalem will be restored?
Dispensationalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) and the Brethren Movement.[1]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture.

Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel (not necessarily the same as the state of Israel) is distinct from the Christian Church,[2]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[3] for a thousand years.
 
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edward99

Guest
You make it seem as God did not know and they could somehow fool him and come to truth when he prophesied they would not
Where did He prophesy this.

2. God prophesied they would do what they did, he prophesied he would tear down their city and it would be trampled on by gentiles, he even referenced in in his account to luke. God also prophesied he would regather his children and bring them back to jerusalem, and they would woship him, never again to worship their idols, or make transgression against him. You would ignore these prophesies, or make these prophesies not concerning isreal but the church, they were not directed to the church, only to isreal!
Where will the church be while Israel goes back to Jerusalem.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Either way, we can be sure they've already been fulfilled, because Jesus said THIS GENERATION.

:D
Nice try.

1. If "This generation was the "end of the age" what age are we in now? why is jerusalem still being trampled by the gentiles? etc etc..

2. "This generation only is directed to the woes imposed on the scribes and pharisees, not the the signs of the end of the age and the Lords coming.

either way, you still have major issues with your belief
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
answer



Siege of Jerusalem (70)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.

The siege ended with the sacking of the city and the destruction of its famous Second Temple. The destruction of both the first and second temples is still mourned annually as the Jewish fast Tisha B'Av. The Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, still stands in Rome.

Josephus had acted as a mediator for the Romans and, when negotiations failed, witnessed the siege and aftermath. He wrote:

Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as they were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall [surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.[2]

And truly, the very view itself was a melancholy thing; for those places which were adorned with trees and pleasant gardens, were now become desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down. Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judaea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change. For the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste. Nor had anyone who had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again. But though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it.[3]

Josephus claims that 1,100,000 people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish, and that 97,000 were captured and enslaved, including Simon bar Giora and John of Giscala.[4]

"The slaughter within was even more dreadful than the spectacle from without. Men and women, old and young, insurgents and priests, those who fought and those who entreated mercy, were hewn down in indiscriminate carnage. The number of the slain exceeded that of the slayers. The legionaries had to clamber over heaps of dead to carry on the work of extermination."[5]

Many fled to areas around the Mediterranean. Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, saying that the victory did not come through his own efforts but that he had merely served as an instrument of God's wrath.[6]


Perceptions

The Jewish Amoraim attributed the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as punishment from God for the "baseless hatred" that pervaded Jewish society at the time.[9]

Christians believe that Jesus prophesied Jerusalem's destruction (Mark 13:2) four decades earlier.


Siege of Jerusalem (70) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Paul c. 54AD

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 2 2For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.



See what you have to do to keep your theology going.
Why did Christ NOT say....!



Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.




Dispensationalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) and the Brethren Movement.[1]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture.

Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel (not necessarily the same as the state of Israel) is distinct from the Christian Church,[2]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[3] for a thousand years.

Dude, You keep digging yourself further and further into a hole.

I asked, when did the time of th egentiles come to an end. And you posted a bunch of wikepedia stuff which showed the time of the jews in jerusalem had come to an end.

I asked when the time of the end of Gentile trampling and devastation of jerusalem would end. And you went of on many other tangents.

Your not helping your cause at all. If anything, your hurting people who believe as you do..

Now would you like to answer my questions or keep going of on wild goose chases and posting a bunch of stuff which might make you appear smart. But does not even come close to responding to the question asked?
 
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