The dead are asleep

[chesser]

it seems that people are defining soul and spirit as the same thing, i remember reading somewhere(dont remember the verse) that when the somebody dies, the spirit goes back to god. that spirit is the one god breathed into adam to make him a living man, i belive that when the body dies, gods spirit leaves them causing the soul to go into sort of a "soul coma". on the last day when ALL are judged(if ALL are judged on the last day, how could people be in heaven or hell?) gods spirit wil lgo back to them, new body,and then judgment, and into everlasting destruction or everlasting life. Scriptural support that gods spirit is what gives the soul life comes from a:god breathing his spirit into adam and him coming alive and b: god saying(dont know exact words) man is not immortal, my spirit shall only stay with him for120 years(equating living with having the spirit of god)

 

[chesser]

You quote scripture right up to your last statement. Where is your verse that says "death=cease to exist"?? Shows post the scripture and the debate ends.

Im sorry, but death means death until you can bring up scripture where it doesnt say that. (plus im fairly sure Ladociea gave you a quote about how the dead know nothing, all their memories have perished etc.)

 

[A-Omega]

Im sorry, but death means death until you can bring up scripture where it doesnt say that. (plus im fairly sure Ladociea gave you a quote about how the dead know nothing, all their memories have perished etc.)

Lol. So in other words, you won't even try to show Scripture to support your conclusion.

I will quote right from The Lord:

"
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." _Luke 16

Neither man "ceased to exist."

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" - Revelation 6


The martyrs did not cease to exist. They are conscious, have feelings and can speak. And yet they were dead.



So again, you list verses but don't have scripture to support your conclusion. And there is scripture that says the opposite.

And the verses from Ecclesiastes were used out of context.



9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.


The actual context of the first half of chapter 9 is that you can only be saved while alive. Once you die, that's it. You have no chance of salvation. When it says "dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward" it's talking about knowledge of salvation, not worldly knowledge and worldly rewards. This is not an explanation of what happens when you die. It is a warning that once you are dead there is no turning back the gates of Hell.



That's why it's better to be a dog that is alive than a mighty lion in the world who dies in sin. Because for all the lion's might, it aint going to Heaven. Where the lowly dog still has a chance as long as it has breath in its lungs. Thus the reason "there is hope."

It's really much more valuable to study scripture for its meaning and context rather than just to prove an argument. This is how we will all grow in The Lord. If you have another interpretation of the meaning and context of Ecclesiastes 9, please offer it. I'm glad to read it. But just throwing the scripture out with no explanation and saying "there!" is not edifying.

 

[chesser]

Lol. So in other words, you won't even try to show Scripture to support your conclusion.

I will quote right from The Lord:

"
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." _Luke 16

Neither man "ceased to exist."

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" - Revelation 6


The martyrs did not cease to exist. They are conscious, have feelings and can speak. And yet they were dead.



So again, you list verses but don't have scripture to support your conclusion. And there is scripture that says the opposite.

And the verses from Ecclesiastes were used out of context.



9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.


The actual context of the first half of chapter 9 is that you can only be saved while alive. Once you die, that's it. You have no chance of salvation. When it says "dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward" it's talking about knowledge of salvation, not worldly knowledge and worldly rewards. This is not an explanation of what happens when you die. It is a warning that once you are dead there is no turning back the gates of Hell.



That's why it's better to be a dog that is alive than a mighty lion in the world who dies in sin. Because for all the lion's might, it aint going to Heaven. Where the lowly dog still has a chance as long as it has breath in its lungs. Thus the reason "there is hope."

It's really much more valuable to study scripture for its meaning and context rather than just to prove an argument. This is how we will all grow in The Lord. If you have another interpretation of the meaning and context of Ecclesiastes 9, please offer it. I'm glad to read it. But just throwing the scripture out with no explanation and saying "there!" is not edifying.

oh, well if a parable meant to express a totally diffrent point says one thing,and the rest of the bible says another then i suppose ignore the rest! look, if you belve there is no jugment day ,fine, but your wrong.

 

[chesser]

The dead are asleep, are you consious while asleep? no!(well unless your having a dream, but im sure they didnt mean that) and im sure youll say somthing along the lines of:show me scripture where it says people who are asleep arent consious and ill say : asleep means asleep unless you can prove it doesnt then youll say: haha, you have no scripture, heres a parable thats has a totally different point then what im making it out to mean.

 

[A-Omega]

oh, well if a parable meant to express a totally diffrent point says one thing,and the rest of the bible says another then i suppose ignore the rest! look, if you belve there is no jugment day ,fine, but your wrong.

Nice try.

1. Rich Man and Lazarus - I have asked this same question before and receive no response. If this is a parable then every character and the main action has a symbolic meaning. So just explain for us what the Rich Man, Lazarus, Abraham's bosom and hell are meant to represent?

2. I gave you the example from Revelation 6 of dead people who are still conscious, aware and speaking. What is your interpretation of this passage?

 

[chesser]

1. oh wow, your going to pretend its not a parable? i mean, who does that? this was a parable of jesus teaching against thepharisees: the rich man was the pharisees, lazarus was the gentiles(his name was used because in the parable it said even if lazarus rose the rich mans brothers(pharisees as well) wouldnot belive, and a few days later he rose lazarus) the rich man had to be alive in hell so they could have the conversation(notice how hes having a rational conversation while burning in fire) as did lazarus have to be in abrahams bosom so they could have the conversation.
2. It says he opened the seal(raised them)this is in revelations, when the peoplewill be raised.
How do you explain jugment day if people go where they are going right after death?

 

[A-Omega]

1. oh wow, your going to pretend its not a parable? i mean, who does that? this was a parable of jesus teaching against thepharisees: the rich man was the pharisees, lazarus was the gentiles(his name was used because in the parable it said even if lazarus rose the rich mans brothers(pharisees as well) wouldnot belive, and a few days later he rose lazarus) the rich man had to be alive in hell so they could have the conversation(notice how hes having a rational conversation while burning in fire) as did lazarus have to be in abrahams bosom so they could have the conversation.
2. It says he opened the seal(raised them)this is in revelations, when the peoplewill be raised.
How do you explain jugment day if people go where they are going right after death?

1. All you did was re-tell the same story. Why would Lazarus represent the Gentiles who were not even believers at this point in history?? Why is the Rich Man representative of the Pharisees, who professed belief and did everything in public to look righteous? The Rich Man did not believe and had zero concern for his public image. Also note this account supports the right interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9. The rich man dies and that's it. No chance for redemption. No hope whatsoever.

And there is nothing in the text that says Jesus just made up the rich man being alive to have the conversation. Your interpretation is wholly your own and not supported by the text. It's assuming that Jesus would give a false impression of what happens when you die. Is this what you truly believe?

2. Those people were not raised. They were dead. It specifically says "the souls of the martyrs..." They were murdered and are dead. And yet they are fully conscious. There's just no way around this except to change the plain meaning of scripture.

 

[chesser]

1. All you did was re-tell the same story. Why would Lazarus represent the Gentiles who were not even believers at this point in history?? Why is the Rich Man representative of the Pharisees, who professed belief and did everything in public to look righteous? The Rich Man did not believe and had zero concern for his public image. Also note this account supports the right interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9. The rich man dies and that's it. No chance for redemption. No hope whatsoever.

And there is nothing in the text that says Jesus just made up the rich man being alive to have the conversation. Your interpretation is wholly your own and not supported by the text. It's assuming that Jesus would give a false impression of what happens when you die. Is this what you truly believe?

2. Those people were not raised. They were dead. It specifically says "the souls of the martyrs..." They were murdered and are dead. And yet they are fully conscious. There's just no way around this except to change the plain meaning of scripture.

you assume there is no jugment day(ignoring, well, revelations) then you use a quote from revelations(the book you ignore) in a failed attampt to prove your point, then you say there were no gentile belivers(a lie) the n you say the rich man was not a beliver(although the parable clearly states him to be a jew when he calls out to father abraham) and then you say the parable is my own interpretation(a lie and an insult) then yousay they were alive before he opened the seal(raised them) even though they only spoke afterhe opened the seal.
Once again, explain jugment day if we are not all juged at the same time.

 

[A-Omega]

you assume there is no jugment day(ignoring, well, revelations) then you use a quote from revelations(the book you ignore) in a failed attampt to prove your point, then you say there were no gentile belivers(a lie) the n you say the rich man was not a beliver(although the parable clearly states him to be a jew when he calls out to father abraham) and then you say the parable is my own interpretation(a lie and an insult) then yousay they were alive before he opened the seal(raised them) even though they only spoke afterhe opened the seal.
Once again, explain jugment day if we are not all juged at the same time.

1. I said the Rich Man was not a believer in JESUS. Which he was not. He had no care if people saw him being mean to the poor. This is all getting bogged down in pointless discussion.

The bottom line is your interpretation presumes Jesus is giving a false description of what happens when you die. Is this what you believe??

2. I do not believe that Revelation chapter 6 is "Judgment day." I believe that happens in Revelation 20. If you can see "Judgment day" in chapter 6 just show me in what verse it happens. The martyrs are dead and they are conscious. It's obvious. Again, only by changing scripture can you come to a different conclusion.

 

[chesser]

1. jesus hadent even dies yet, how could that be a problem? and jesus was telling a parable against the pharisees, which he did quite well.
2. ok, but did they speak before or after the vault was opened? before, then ok,you win. after, then they were alive.
3. ok, fine, you only ignore revelations 20, happy?you still cant explain jugment day.

 

[A-Omega]

1. jesus hadent even dies yet, how could that be a problem? and jesus was telling a parable against the pharisees, which he did quite well.
2. ok, but did they speak before or after the vault was opened? before, then ok,you win. after, then they were alive.
3. ok, fine, you only ignore revelations 20, happy?you still cant explain jugment day.

We're not even scripture. This is just ideas throwing. What is the vault? What did Jesus not dying have to do with Him giving a false impression of what happens when you die?? I am asking such plain questions and you won't even answer them you are still insisting on your interpretation. But that's your prerogative so I won't push it. We're just going in circles.

P.S. I am not trying to "win" anything. I am just trying to look at scripture in context and rightly divide it.

 

[chesser]

First: i see you still cant explain jugment day and are avoiding doing so, second i meant seal,not vault, sorry, third, you said the rich man wasnt a beliver in jesus to which i said:well jesus hadnt dies yet, fourth jesus wasnt even trying to give any picture whatsoever of what happens when you die. thats not what the parable was about at all. fith: are you catholic?(i know that catholics teach its a literal event but ever since martian luther its been taught as a parable by prodestant churches)

 

[Nautilus]

who cares? Either we go straight there or we wait...its not like you would know the difference. YOURE DEAD

 

[weakness]

the spirit is the breath of life and is separate from the soul. the breauh of life goes back to god who gave it. the bible does not say only the breath of life from good people go to god. the bible never calls the soul eternal. show me 1 verse in the bible that says the soul is eternal with the 2 words actually linked together.

somthing about your picture gives me the creeps looks to much like jehova witness or something

 

[chesser]

somthing about your picture gives me the creeps looks to much like jehova witness or something

shes a SDA

 

[Laodicea]

somthing about your picture gives me the creeps looks to much like jehova witness or something

You will not find in all the Bible the words soul and eternal linked together

 

[Laodicea]

shes a SDA

He not she

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: show me 1 verse in the bible that says the soul is eternal with the 2 words actually linked together.


Better Yet, Show Me The Verse That Says That The Soul Sleeps At Death.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: show me 1 verse in the bible that says the soul is eternal with the 2 words actually linked together.


Better Yet, Show Me The Verse That Says That The Soul Sleeps At Death.

When he opened the fifth seal., I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and th testomony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice. 'How Long Soveriegn Lord until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our bood?' Then each of them was given a white robe and they were told to wait a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and brothers were to be killed
Rev 6:9-12

Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God prepared as a bride beautiffully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying
'Now(not before) the dwelling of God is with men
Rev21:1-3