Can Salvation be lost??

[tribesman]

...What did John say of those who left? THEY NEVER WERE OF US. for if they WERE OF US, they NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

people can twist a passage all they want, it does not make it right.

Exactly. Never means never. Just as in Matt.7:22-23.

That ought to be easy to understand. Yet so many people twist and contend about it.

 

[Red33]

1. No where in this passage does it say they were washed. Having knowledge of truth, and accepting truth in a way you had faith in it is NOT THE SAME.

2. It says they escaped. You escape by finding Gods people and having fellowship with them, and learning the knowledge of truth, yet again, this does not prove you ever had faith in it.

3. A dog, He is saying something here. A dog who would become a christian would become a new creature in Christ right? Does not scripture say this? Peter makes it clear. They came in as a dog, they acted like something else. But as their true nature (that of a dog) he returned to his own vomit. what he really LIKED. She spit on the gospel of Christ, which would have washed her. But she did not trust it, so she did what came natural to her.

remember in John. A person born of God can not do this, why? they have been born of God. What did John say of those who left? THEY NEVER WERE OF US. for if they WERE OF US, they NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

people can twist a passage all they want, it does not make it right.

According to YOUR understanding and to what is written, would the following two passages below support the fact that none had been born of God at any time, whether they had been sent out or not, including Judas and any that might depart from the faith through seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in (1Tim 4:1)...

Jn 6:64-66

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Was Demas, Crescens and Titus also of that number of hypocrites (pretenders) and those not born of God in (2Tim 4:10)...

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

What of the original disciples that had forsaken Christ and fled just prior to the cross (Mt 26:56), should we count them of that number that left the company of Jesus Christ and if it was not for the Lord being risen and going after them in their backslidden state in (Jn 21), would they have taken up their cross once again and followed the Lord? What do we do with all the verses of promise that Christ will raise them up in the last days in (Jn 6:39,40,44,54)? Do we walk by faith and judge according to outward appearance or do we believe the promises of God, hope by faith and continue in the love of God that thinks no evil. If you judge that some have left and conclude that they were never of us and God raises them up and exalts them through His grace to be used for His purposes, then what are you going to say about your premature judgment?

 

[feedm3]

You don't get it do you? You posted in an open chat room a part of a passage, and said this proves that we can lose salvation. I took the passage apart. to prove that it does not say what your saying. Then you do not respond to it. And when confronted, you think it is a me against you issue. I know the HS will never convince you of your works based Gospel will get you no where. So I am no longer trying to convince you. I am, however, Going to show ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM, who read your post how you took it out of context, and show them what was truely being said.

if you do not wish to show how I was wrong or mistranslated it or whatever, thats fine. Everyone who reads and still has questions concerning this doctrine can see that. I do it for them. done trying to do it for you! My origional response was not even directed to or at you, It was a response to what SOMEONE else said.

Your way over dramatic man. Look at how your starting out and we havent really even began discussing yet. Really man, don't want to argue (insulting manner) anymore.

If you want me to answer something just ask. If you have a question just say. You don't have to get in fight mode just to speak to me.

I am trying to change my attitude with people because it was wrong how I talked to you and others. I have apoliged already, but what is apologies if I jsut keep doing it every time I am provoked.

So I am asking please change the way your talking to me, and if you want to study lets do it in a christian manner. And I will answer anything you want. Take care.

 

[simplyme_bekah]

Nope. God tells us in the bible that no one and nothing can pluck us from his hand. Those doubts are from the devil.

 

[feedm3]

According to YOUR understanding and to what is written, would the following two passages below support the fact that none had been born of God at any time, whether they had been sent out or not, including Judas and any that might depart from the faith through seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in (1Tim 4:1)...

Jn 6:64-66

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Was Demas, Crescens and Titus also of that number of hypocrites (pretenders) and those not born of God in (2Tim 4:10)...

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

What of the original disciples that had forsaken Christ and fled just prior to the cross (Mt 26:56), should we count them of that number that left the company of Jesus Christ and if it was not for the Lord being risen and going after them in their backslidden state in (Jn 21), would they have taken up their cross once again and followed the Lord? What do we do with all the verses of promise that Christ will raise them up in the last days in (Jn 6:39,40,44,54)? Do we walk by faith and judge according to outward appearance or do we believe the promises of God, hope by faith and continue in the love of God that thinks no evil. If you judge that some have left and conclude that they were never of us and God raises them up and exalts them through His grace to be used for His purposes, then what are you going to say about your premature judgment?

I agree with you on this particular point, Good usage of scripture too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to YOUR understanding and to what is written, would the following two passages below support the fact that none had been born of God at any time, whether they had been sent out or not, including Judas and any that might depart from the faith through seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in (1Tim 4:1)...

Jn 6:64-66

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Christ knew from the beginning who BELIEVED NOT. (this would be judas and others who followed for a time, John 6 is people looking for a free handout. And when Jesus did not give it to them, they left.

Was Demas, Crescens and Titus also of that number of hypocrites (pretenders) and those not born of God in (2Tim 4:10)...

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Demus loved the world. if he did not love the world more than God he would have stated.

What of the original disciples that had forsaken Christ and fled just prior to the cross (Mt 26:56), should we count them of that number that left the company of Jesus Christ and if it was not for the Lord being risen and going after them in their backslidden state in (Jn 21), would they have taken up their cross once again and followed the Lord? What do we do with all the verses of promise that Christ will raise them up in the last days in (Jn 6:39,40,44,54)? Do we walk by faith and judge according to outward appearance or do we believe the promises of God, hope by faith and continue in the love of God that thinks no evil. If you judge that some have left and conclude that they were never of us and God raises them up and exalts them through His grace to be used for His purposes, then what are you going to say about your premature judgment?

These disciples did not go back into the world. They just "out of fear" left Christ and questioned things. Many people do this. Anyway, this would not be those spoken of by Peter. A dog is always a dog. There was only one dog who was a part of the 12 and that was Judas.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. God tells us in the bible that no one and nothing can pluck us from his hand. Those doubts are from the devil.

Amen. Nothing. I Myself would be included in this word. If I can pull myself out of Gods hand, Then God lied when he said NOTHING. Am I more powerfull than God that I can tear myself from his hads (for that matter why would I want to?)

 

[Red33]

Christ knew from the beginning who BELIEVED NOT. (this would be judas and others who followed for a time, John 6 is people looking for a free handout. And when Jesus did not give it to them, they left.



Demus loved the world. if he did not love the world more than God he would have stated.



These disciples did not go back into the world. They just "out of fear" left Christ and questioned things. Many people do this. Anyway, this would not be those spoken of by Peter. A dog is always a dog. There was only one dog who was a part of the 12 and that was Judas.

Do we ignore a large group of believers that have left many of the local churches and assemblies that God had called them to serve in. There are many reasons for them leaving these local assemblies, some may be justified and others not. Many of them are not evil but are backslidden and have no fire of love burning within. They don't slander or malign others and many are broken or perhaps have been wounded in the plan of God but God had not forgotten them neither will He forsake or leave them. What about (Ps 139:8b)...if i make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. They belong to Him and have His righteousness and He will surely raise them up. David had mercy and goodness follow him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have the sure mercies of David (Act 13:34). Should we think any different of our fellow believers who may not be fellowshipping with us at this time? What about Crescen and Titus that seem to have gone their own way and left Paul? Is not your heart filled with the love of God even for those that have fallen and been led astray one way or another?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we ignore a large group of believers that have left many of the local churches and assemblies that God had called them to serve in. There are many reasons for them leaving these local assemblies, some may be justified and others not. Many of them are not evil but are backslidden and have no fire of love burning within. They don't slander or malign others and many are broken or perhaps have been wounded in the plan of God but God had not forgotten them neither will He forsake or leave them. What about (Ps 139:8b)...if i make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. They belong to Him and have His righteousness and He will surely raise them up. David had mercy and goodness follow him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have the sure mercies of David (Act 13:34). Should we think any different of our fellow believers who may not be fellowshipping with us at this time? What about Crescen and Titus that seem to have gone their own way and left Paul? Is not your heart filled with the love of God even for those that have fallen and been led astray one way or another?

what does this have to do with the verses you posted? yes their are prodigal sons and daughters who leave FOR A TIME, but Peter is not talking of this, nor was Christ. the possible exception of demus, which I would have to study further.

 

[Red33]

Think of the ways that the devil could use this kind of doctrine to put believers back in bondage to sin. I think that this doctrine of losing salvation is influenced and manipulated by demons to produce doubt in the heart to replace faith in the promises of God. Satan does not want believers to have confidence or assurance in anything that God has promised or given to the believer by grace. If he can keep the believer in a place of being unsure of his salvation then he can get the believer to question the truthfulness and faithfulness of God and all that He has promised. This doctrine becomes a means to leaven the faith of the believer and to get him to stop trusting God in all things and to give up hope. This will eventually lead the believer to question God in every area of his faith and little by little lead him to depart from the faith that he was once loved and was edified. Every believer should flee this doctrine and have no part with it because it will destroy our faith and break our fellowship with the living God.

 

[Charmie38]

No, salvation cannot be lost. Once you are saved, you are really saved. God knows who will be His, even before He made you. God select His people. Dont worry.

 

[jandian]

Firstly, I've showed that as natural men we cannot receive it by ourselves at any stretch (Matt.19:24-26, John 6:28-29,44, Eph.2:1-3, 1Cor.12:14), so we cannot take it, it has to be given to us (Matt.19:11, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10). Once you see this, you should understand that salvation is wholly of God and we have actually no "part to play" in it, because it is not of us, it is of God alone. This is a principle we must hold on to throughout reading all scripture. Secondly, you say that you "totally believe" we are saved by grace, yet you also say that we can go out of that grace. That has to mean that you either believe that grace is earned and have to be maintained by us continually earning and "choosing" it else we go out on it. Or it means that the grace spoken of here is not really saving in itself at all, it just gives us the chance to work a little better on getting saved, if lucky enough. I can't agree with this since it is unscriptural.

Rev.3:5: This verse does not suggest a possibility of the loss of salvation, for those who are saved. Those who are saved, the Elect, have their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and it will remain there (Rev.13:8,17:8). Just as their election and salvation was likewise secured from the foundation of the world by the will of God and not their merit (John 17:4, Rom.9:11, Eph.1.4, Heb.4:3). However, scripture does indeed use terms such being cut off and falling away, but this always refers to the tare, goats or weed. Jude said that such souls had "crept in unawares", souls that God had "of old" ordained to condemnation (Jude v.4). These people were professing believers, they thought that they both did great things for God and experienced great things of God, but they NEVER belonged to Him. They were never saved (Matt.7:21-23). Those who "overcome" do so solely on the ground of the "blood of the lamb" (Rev.7:14,12:11) - not because of anything they add to this work.

James 5:19-20: The greek word used here does not mean convert as in convert to save, but convert as to turn someone from an erring or heretic belief to a correct belief. Another example of this is found in Gal.6:1-2. To think that a work of man can save another man's soul from hell is a very unsystematical interpretation of this scripture. If one is systematically interpreting this scripture with the knowledge that only the work of Christ is what makes the difference between heaven and hell for a sinner it is impossible to think that what is spoken of here should have anything to do with salvation being in the hands of men.

1Cor 9:27: The word "castaway" must not explicitly be referring to salvation here. Paul was concerned about becoming ineffective in his ministry, that his service would be rejected at the judgment seat. Paul was not worried that he could be lost. A contextual interpretation makes this plain since in the same epistle he taught that Christ preserves the believer (1Cor.1:7-9). His concern was about falling short of God’s calling for his life. He mentions running a race and winning the prize. To confuse this passage with salvation must stem from a misunderstanding of the gospel. Salvation is not a reward for faithful and excellent service. The Bible is clear on that salvation is by the free and unmerited grace and mercy of God. Anything that is merited or rewarded is not saving grace (Rom.11:6). But once we are saved we are called to serve Christ and doing so well means a "reward". If a believer on the other hand is not doing this well, he will be chastened by God (Heb.12:6-8, 1Cor.11:31-32). But even if his service was not acceptable, he shall still be saved, even if it has to be by fire (1Cor.3:11-15).



We are not to lean to our own understanding (and we can not know all things). However, the enlightenment of the Word of God is external as well as internal, equally affecting heart and mind/intellect. If we do not see this, we have a problem. The unsaved cannot "read and understand" because the Word of God is foolishness to them, but that does not mean it is impossible for the saved to read and understand. We have to have due respect for the revelation of the Holy Spirit in the Word - and not to put or seek that somewhere else. That's why letting scripture interpret scripture is so very important. The Holy Spirit would not reveal anything that is contrary to scripture, nor to its historical facts.



I agree with you that (most) people will believe what they want to believe anyway, however I see no problem with wanting to believe that which is true, but I do see a big problem with people "choosing" to believe something because of their own (or others') mere preference or "feelings" about that something. Usually such people have a very hard time seeing scripture objectively. So, if they are in error it is usually very hard for them to be convinced of it unless they have a certain subjective feeling or (internal) experience. If one has an all too fixed idea of how the Holy Spirit works and directs, one can easily fall prey to a self-centered and subjective approach to scripture reading/interpretation that is certain to take one off base. The question is only how much.

Finally I add that I don't strictly believe in what is sometimes called OSAS (once saved always saved) but I believe in what is known as the perseverance of the Saints (P of TULIP). If you want to know more about that (or something else) just ask.

1. If you dont believe in once saved always saved, what exactly are we arguing about?
We are not perfect but; but IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us. It was never about works ; its about the HEART. Its not about who sins and who doesnt is about what goes on in our HEART when we do.

We read the scriptures, but we dont see what God is after.

 

[tribesman]

1. If you dont believe in once saved always saved, what exactly are we arguing about?

If you knew what I meant with the term the perseverance of the Saints (or POTS, taken from the letter P of the acronym TULIP) vs OSAS it would have been easy for you to get my point. To put this shortly, to believe in the perseverance of the Saints does indeed mean to believe in the security of salvation - that salvation can not be lost for those who have been given it. It also means to believe that God will preserve those who are saved in the faith until the end.

This biblical doctrine differs from what is popularly called OSAS in that it rejects the idea that someone can make a profession of Christ one day and then basically the next day abandon his "faith" and never repent and still be saved or that someone can be saved who merely makes such a profession and yet believes in a false gospel and/or live in sin - and die in such state. These people were never saved.

The doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints leaves some room for that a saved soul can go off base for a time, but that God in His mercy always will successfully bring this soul back to the fold and will thus preserve that soul in the faith. Simply said, we do not believe in a concept of salvation where it brings not certain fruit. One of these being perseverance. Which is a work of God.

So, while we who hold to the perseverance of the Saints differ much from OSAS, needless to say we also differ much from the idea that salvation can ever be lost for those who are truly saved. Thus I am objecting to your idea that salvation can be lost for those who are saved. You can read up more on this if interested. It's out there for all to seek.

 

[tribesman]

jandian, now that you know something about POTS vs OSAS, do you have any remarks to the comments I made to the scriptures you asked me to speak up on? Do you still defend the line that these (or other) scriptures says that a saved soul can ever lose his salvation?

...We are not perfect but; but IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us. It was never about works ; its about the HEART. Its not about who sins and who doesnt is about what goes on in our HEART when we do.

God requires absolute perfection from us - also in heart. This is what the law says. There is no such thing as to excuse the slightest sin and saying "I'm right in heart". Jesus taught much about how sin operates in the heart. So, something like absolute perfection is not the issue here. The issue is if salvation is permanent or not for those who receive it.

 

[jandian]

If they do not respond is not " they will be removed from the book of life" does not pertain to salvation?.... I'm not sure how you want me to believe that? The book of life is where saved people are recorded.

Can save a soul from DEATH and hide a multitude of sins. I dont know tribe, are you seeing difficulty in understanding what you are trying to say here. it saids turns a "sinner" the same one who knew the truth.

the word castaway is used- and you got ineffective in ministry... from castaway...

Sigh....What I do know is that Jesus empowered men who knew the truth to heal and deliver in His name, but when they went astray, On judgement day He said to them depart from me I never knew you........

This argument can go on forever, and you can insist that you are right and I am believing what I want. I'm exhausted, because the same way you believe I'm taking the scripture out of context, i feel just as strongly about the things you say.

I trust that you love the Lord and have committed yourself to Him as have I, may He lead us into all truth.

I may join this discussion again, but for now I think we need a Holy Spirit intervention. God bless

 

[Cobus]

Saved people are even saved from sin. That means they are actually REMOVED from the ruling of sin in flesh! How does God do that? Romans specifically says... Romans 6:17 and 18.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Eventuallly in salvation, God creates a NEW creature, when ALL the old is passed...DIED! Then the NEW Godly creature is set free to be a servant of righteousness. God says in 1 John 3 that these people are as righteouss as God is righteouss... I guess they are perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect. Now my question for myself is... If I do not know a person like that, a perfect person, does it make God's command in MAtthew 5:48 unfair, or does it make the scripture of God untrue? NOPE! I guess not. It only means I do not know any perfect people! Why? I guess I am still not made a new creature. I will however have hope on my Lord Jesus Christ that HIS will be done in me!

God says every one in Christ is a NEW creature, ALL old things are passed, I still have old things, but like Paul, I hope that soon, I would also confess I dided with Christ, and only He lives in me. Amen!

 

[fighterace0]

My thurough response with references:
"Is it possible for a Christian to Lost Their Salvation"

 

[Katy-follower]

Think of the ways that the devil could use this kind of doctrine to put believers back in bondage to sin. I think that this doctrine of losing salvation is influenced and manipulated by demons to produce doubt in the heart to replace faith in the promises of God. Satan does not want believers to have confidence or assurance in anything that God has promised or given to the believer by grace. If he can keep the believer in a place of being unsure of his salvation then he can get the believer to question the truthfulness and faithfulness of God and all that He has promised. This doctrine becomes a means to leaven the faith of the believer and to get him to stop trusting God in all things and to give up hope. This will eventually lead the believer to question God in every area of his faith and little by little lead him to depart from the faith that he was once loved and was edified. Every believer should flee this doctrine and have no part with it because it will destroy our faith and break our fellowship with the living God.

Red - I absolutely agree!

This 'loss of salvation' belief can bring a person down and away from scripture because it puts into people's hearts that no one is safe, even after salvation has occurred. It makes a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to pay the wage of our sins once and for all.

Some religions believe you maintain your justification and they threaten with "anathemas" if anyone believes they are eternally secure and that it's by faith alone. Also they are told that if they commit a "mortal sin" and are then hit by a bus and die that they are doomed to hell. Does this sound familiar? This very doctrine seems to have crept it's way in here. Does no one here trust that God keeps us?? Does God not promise to never leave or forsake us, that no one can take us from Him? Once we become a child of God does He then change His mind?

If anyone attacks the security of the believer, first of all he is attacking God and claiming He changed His verdict. Second, the person is attacking Christ and claiming His work on the cross was inadequate and that His work can't maintain us. Finally, he is also attacking the Holy Spirit and claiming He is inadequate to help the believer persevere. A discrediting of the Trinity is wrapped up in a denial of the security of salvation.

A worrying thing.... How is it that many here did not feel eternally secure when they were first saved? When we're saved (born again) we instantly know where we're going, we don't just have hope of it. So why do some here not feel this way? Is everyone really saved here?... because the Holy Spirit does not guide us on two different paths that both butt heads.

1 John 5:9: "We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us — whatever we ask — we know that we have what we asked of him"

 

[Red33]

Red - I absolutely agree!

This 'loss of salvation' belief can bring a person down and away from scripture because it puts into people's hearts that no one is safe, even after salvation has occurred. It makes a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to pay the wage of our sins once and for all.

Some religions believe you maintain your justification and they threaten with "anathemas" if anyone believes they are eternally secure and that it's by faith alone. Also they are told that if they commit a "mortal sin" and are then hit by a bus and die that they are doomed to hell. Does this sound familiar? This very doctrine seems to have crept it's way in here. Does no one here trust that God keeps us?? Does God not promise to never leave or forsake us, that no one can take us from Him? Once we become a child of God does He then change His mind?

If anyone attacks the security of the believer, first of all he is attacking God and claiming He changed His verdict. Second, the person is attacking Christ and claiming His work on the cross was inadequate and that His work can't maintain us. Finally, he is also attacking the Holy Spirit and claiming He is inadequate to help the believer persevere. A discrediting of the Trinity is wrapped up in a denial of the security of salvation.

A worrying thing.... How is it that many here did not feel eternally secure when they were first saved? When we're saved (born again) we instantly know where we're going, we don't just have hope of it. So why do some here not feel this way? Is everyone really saved here?... because the Holy Spirit does not guide us on two different paths that both butt heads.

1 John 5:9: "We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us — whatever we ask — we know that we have what we asked of him"

You and many others have this testimony within and your soul is anchored in the promise and hope of eternal life. The hope we have is sure and steadfast because we know that we have been given eternal life through the Son in whom we have believed. The Son was made available to us as the risen Christ who conquered sin and death and we have put our trust in His name and have believed God's testimony concerning Him. We may not always live our life according to that testimony but that testimony is a judicial judgment that proclaims that we have been made accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6). To even consider anything outside that testimony that we have within would discredit the work of God in our lives that began with that testimony (Phil 1:6) which is faithful and true and will not bear false witness. When we go out to preach the gospel we witness to this testimony concerning the Son and the life that we have through Him.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Maybe we should all meet in the middle somewhere? I really like the following links and I think it would be helpful to read. The first link is about predestination vs freewill and the second link is about "perseverance".

Bob Utley

Predestination (Calvinism) Versus Human Free Will (Arminianism)

Predestination (Calvinism) Versus Human Free Will (Arminianism)