Fallacies of the Present Day Church

[marianna]

Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.

Penal Substitution is pure fallacy. It is an evil doctrine which is at complete odds with the Scriptures.

Leviticus 16:8-34
"...shall take cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat....the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness....And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:8-34

Did the GOAT sin?
Just answer yes or no.

What was all that stuff TEACHING????

"all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away...into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities"

The man who took the goat into the desert, and those who burned the two sin-offerings outside the camp (see at Leviticus 4:11, Leviticus 4:21), had also to wash their clothes and bathe their bodies before they returned to the camp, because they had been defiled by the animals laden with sin.

11For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. - Hebrews 13

Explain in your own words what that was all about.

Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.

"all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away...into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities"

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29

For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. - 1 Corinthians 5

SIN IS NOT FORGIVEN IF THE WAGES FOR IT ARE NOT PAID - DEATH AND BLOOD.

If Jesus did NOT bear your sins as the scapegoat AND was not the perfect Lamb, you're dead in your sins just like the arrogant Pharisees who thought themselves righteous.

44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

47The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” - Luke 23:46

Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- - Romans 3:25

He was innocent 1 Peter 2:23-25; he was a sacrifice for sin the substance represented by the daily offering of the lamb, and slain at the usual time of the evening sacrifice Luke 23:44-46; and he was what was represented by the Passover, turning away the anger of God, and saving sinners by his blood from vengeance and eternal death, 1 Corinthians 5:7.

Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.

Penal Substitution is pure fallacy. It is an evil doctrine which is at complete odds with the Scriptures.

Your teaching is EVIL.

 

[angelofmercy]

That is a corruption of that passage.
He was saying to THE PHARISEES He had cursed that the Kingdom of God was in THEIR MIDST - among them. Standing there. Yet they would not see it.

Can a fornicator who believes in Jesus keep fornicating believing he is in the Kingdom?

what is fornication? Because how we see it today is only a shadow and not the truth. Did Abraham isaac and Jacob fornicate?

 

[AgapeSpiritEyes]

If the obedience to Yahvah God came through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah then all you write does not apply.

If one believes not in Yahshua the Messiah being the only sin offering to Yahvah God then yes they will not be covered by Grace and will not be part of the New Covenant.

They will be trying to establish their own salvation based on their own obedience that can not pardon their sin.

Yahshua the Messiah came into the world through the Old Covenant to bring us the New Covenant of Yahvah God.


So through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah are we part of the New Covenant...

Our heart becomes circumcised and we find the Law of Love within us.


I believe that the 10 Commandments are what we learn to live by through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah to serve Yahvah God.

I did not think this up, i witness this is what took place in my life..

i'm a lowly person with an Almighty, Loving, Righteous Yahvah God who never left me... but guided me to Yahshua the Messiah.


For i always believed in Yahvah God and believed Yahshua to be his son... i had never heard why he came into the world though...

At the lowest point in my life i begged for Help and he came and guides me each and every day.

Do you know how i learnt how great my sins were?


Through the amount of Love and Gratitude i have for Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.... i say that in a humble way...

Amen
Intellectual reasoning even about the spiritual concepts and covanents is incomplete without experienceing Him in your heart and soul," A New Birth" of spiritual realm in the unseen areas in our heart and soul and spirit, to present arguements in the reasoning area of our brains with out the experience of the Holy Spirit is what is out of symetrical emperically in our real spiritual growth. Our walk to salvation's finish line is sowing to the Holy Spirit and reaping, growing, producing fruits of the Holy Spirit growing in the likeness of Jesus, until we are completely like Him we walk in faith of His love completed by mutually giving our hearts and souls to Him and receiving the Lord's likeness through the Holy Spirit. A spiritual new birth growing into a complete fully grown stature of a son and daughter of God.

 

[Skinski7]

Marianna,

You keep addressing a strawman position which you have concocted in your brain and then attribute to me.

Penal Substitition teaches that God poured out His WRATH on Jesus. It teaches that Jesus was PUNISHED BY GOD the punishement due to the sinner. It teaches that because the punishment due was ABSORBED by Jesus that is CANNOT BE DUE ANYMORE.

Why not address those aspects of the death of Christ as viewed through the lense of Penal Substitution.

The early Church held to various views of Ransom and they also taught Christis Victor. They DID NOT believe in Penal Substitution and they did not teach Penal Substitution. Was their doctrine evil also?

Penal Substitution is a product of the Reformation when a judicial aspect was stacked upon the Satisfaction View of Anselm of Cantebury.

As I read through all these responses I see people completely IGNORING what I write and twisting my position it into something else entirely which they then serve to address the twisted interpretation.

If Penal Substitition is true then God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN, instead he appropriates the sin to an innocent and punishes them for the sin instead. That is not forgiveness, that is some weird philosophy where God has all this pent up wrath which just has to be expelled in some way so instead of God beating up sinners He beats up His own son instead. It is pure nonsense.

Jesus suffered yes. Jesus bore our sins yes. Jesus was most definitely PUNISHED for a crime He did not commit but He was punished by men. Jesus subjected Himself to wicked men who killed Him. God removed the protection that was evident throughout the life of Jesus when men previously wanted to kill Him. Jesus WAS NOT punished by God with the penalty due the sinner. If that was the case Jesus would have been cast into everlasting fire, and not only that, He would also have only "paid the fine" for the limited few who would be saved otherwise God would be punishing the same sins twice.

You completely ignore my clear objections and attack tangent strawmen. So does Rick and many others.

You quote all these verses to attack the strawman you have created yet none of them state that God poured out His wrath on Jesus. The Bible does not teach that anywhere and you know it and that is why you are dancing around the farmyard playing with scarecrows instead of directly addressing my objections.

 

[Abiding]

Marianna,

You keep addressing a strawman position which you have concocted in your brain and then attribute to me.

Penal Substitition teaches that God poured out His WRATH on Jesus. It teaches that Jesus was PUNISHED BY GOD the punishement due to the sinner. It teaches that because the punishment due was ABSORBED by Jesus that is CANNOT BE DUE ANYMORE.

Why not address those aspects of the death of Christ as viewed through the lense of Penal Substitution.

The early Church held to various views of Ransom and they also taught Christis Victor. They DID NOT believe in Penal Substitution and they did not teach Penal Substitution. Was their doctrine evil also?

Penal Substitution is a product of the Reformation when a judicial aspect was stacked upon the Satisfaction View of Anselm of Cantebury.

As I read through all these responses I see people completely IGNORING what I write and twisting my position it into something else entirely which they then serve to address the twisted interpretation.

If Penal Substitition is true then God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN, instead he appropriates the sin to an innocent and punishes them for the sin instead. That is not forgiveness, that is some weird philosophy where God has all this pent up wrath which just has to be expelled in some way so instead of God beating up sinners He beats up His own son instead. It is pure nonsense.

Jesus suffered yes. Jesus bore our sins yes. Jesus was most definitely PUNISHED for a crime He did not commit but He was punished by men. Jesus subjected Himself to wicked men who killed Him. God removed the protection that was evident throughout the life of Jesus when men previously wanted to kill Him. Jesus WAS NOT punished by God with the penalty due the sinner. If that was the case Jesus would have been cast into everlasting fire, and not only that, He would also have only "paid the fine" for the limited few who would be saved otherwise God would be punishing the same sins twice.

You completely ignore my clear objections and attack tangent strawmen. So does Rick and many others.

You quote all these verses to attack the strawman you have created yet none of them state that God poured out His wrath on Jesus. The Bible does not teach that anywhere and you know it and that is why you are dancing around the farmyard playing with scarecrows instead of directly addressing my objections.

I can address this: Jesus died. That was the payment. Finished! God did do this. Jesus laid down His life.
So what exactly is the issue again?

Also i might add if you start a thread 2 pages long it becomes difficult to dialogue
so much at a time.

 

[Skinski7]

The deadly danger of Penal Substitution is it offers a false assurance to the sinner who remains in rebellion that they are in fact saved because they were taught that by "trusting" in a "provision" then the great exchange of Jesus absorbing their punishment and them being credited with His obedient track record has taken place.

Penal Substitution is a deadly heresy because it reduces "salvation" to being merely a judicial book keeping entry completely disconnected for the true state of the soul. The strongholds formulated in the minds of those who buy into this lie and are still in bondage to their rebellion are completely are completely neutralised from experiencing a genuine broken repentance whereby the bondage of sin is broken and where the blood of Jesus Christ can truly purge them of all their dead works. In practical effect they NEVER touch the blood yet are convinced in their minds that they have.

It is for this reason that my words are so offensive to so many people because if I am correct it blows their whole theological system and assurance of salvation out of the water. It is much easier to dismiss my objections and cling to that which is familiar.

 

[Abiding]

The deadly danger of Penal Substitution is it offers a false assurance to the sinner who remains in rebellion that they are in fact saved because they were taught that by "trusting" in a "provision" then the great exchange of Jesus absorbing their punishment and them being credited with His obedient track record has taken place.

Penal Substitution is a deadly heresy because it reduces "salvation" to being merely a judicial book keeping entry completely disconnected for the true state of the soul. The strongholds formulated in the minds of those who buy into this lie and are still in bondage to their rebellion are completely are completely neutralised from experiencing a genuine broken repentance whereby the bondage of sin is broken and where the blood of Jesus Christ can truly purge them of all their dead works. In practical effect they NEVER touch the blood yet are convinced in their minds that they have.

It is for this reason that my words are so offensive to so many people because if I am correct it blows their whole theological system and assurance of salvation out of the water. It is much easier to dismiss my objections and cling to that which is familiar.

Hmm...i may object to a point here and point there. But im not disagreeing with your sentiment.
Im not sure i can put on a strong arguement since ive not really thought over this issue.

It baffles me tho to think that Penal substitution causes what you say. It does sound like it
would to a tare. It might comfort a rebel in their sin. But How? could one who God led to true
repentance think continuing in willful sin is ok? And how would penal substitution be a problem
being that salvation is received by faith which includes a continued working by our own volition
in obedience?

See ive never heard penal substitution being taught as an escape from obedience...rekon you have.

 

[Mediate]

I think the key is to realise there are no elite in true faith.

Elijah, The Prophet before Jesus, John, the Man of Revelation, prepared a place where he allows everyone in ahead of him.

 

[Red33]

The deadly danger of Penal Substitution is it offers a false assurance to the sinner who remains in rebellion that they are in fact saved because they were taught that by "trusting" in a "provision" then the great exchange of Jesus absorbing their punishment and them being credited with His obedient track record has taken place.

Penal Substitution is a deadly heresy because it reduces "salvation" to being merely a judicial book keeping entry completely disconnected for the true state of the soul. The strongholds formulated in the minds of those who buy into this lie and are still in bondage to their rebellion are completely are completely neutralised from experiencing a genuine broken repentance whereby the bondage of sin is broken and where the blood of Jesus Christ can truly purge them of all their dead works. In practical effect they NEVER touch the blood yet are convinced in their minds that they have.

It is for this reason that my words are so offensive to so many people because if I am correct it blows their whole theological system and assurance of salvation out of the water. It is much easier to dismiss my objections and cling to that which is familiar.

The preciousness of Christ being our substitutionary sacrifice, the just for the unjust, is that He really did suffer death by taking our place on the cross. He not only died for us but as us by becoming the very sin that needed to be judged through death. If anyone does not understand this, they do not uderstand the purpose for God sending His Son. This is why we love Him because He first loved us by giving Himself for us.

 

[Grandpa]

Hmm...i may object to a point here and point there. But im not disagreeing with your sentiment.
Im not sure i can put on a strong arguement since ive not really thought over this issue.

It baffles me tho to think that Penal substitution causes what you say. It does sound like it
would to a tare. It might comfort a rebel in their sin. But How? could one who God led to true
repentance think continuing in willful sin is ok? And how would penal substitution be a problem
being that salvation is received by faith which includes a continued working by our own volition
in obedience?

See ive never heard penal substitution being taught as an escape from obedience...rekon you have.

Knowing God's Love for us is the only chance we have at obedience.

If a person undermines Gods Love they undermine everything, the whole foundation.

One other thing. There are people who take advantage of biblical concepts and try to use them as an occasion for their flesh. This doesn't mean the concepts are wrong. It means the way the person is applying them is wrong.

I hope this helps.

 

[Skinski7]

Hmm...i may object to a point here and point there. But im not disagreeing with your sentiment.
Im not sure i can put on a strong arguement since ive not really thought over this issue.

It baffles me tho to think that Penal substitution causes what you say. It does sound like it
would to a tare. It might comfort a rebel in their sin. But How? could one who God led to true
repentance think continuing in willful sin is ok? And how would penal substitution be a problem
being that salvation is received by faith which includes a continued working by our own volition
in obedience?

See ive never heard penal substitution being taught as an escape from obedience...rekon you have.

I speak to a lot of Pastors most of who hold to the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

When I ask them if an individual who is addicted to pornography has to stop viewing porn BEFORE God will forgive them they clearly tell me that he does not.

They tell me that the porn viewer turns to God first, gets saved and it is then that he is empowered to stop viewing porn.

I then ask them when the porn viewing actually stops and they tell me it is different with different people. They will tell me that some porn addicts are more addicted than others but the sign of being truly saved is that the porn addict is "convicted" about his sin and "wants to stop it."

The above pretty much describes the common view taught by most pastors today.

Due to Penal Substitution they view salvation as a "legal position" whereby the sinner has swapped accounts with Jesus. Basically the sin which brings condemnation has been attributed to Jesus Christ whereby Jesus took the punishment in the sinners place, and the perfect righteousness of Jesus is attributed to the sinner so that God sees the righteousness of Jesus when He looks at the sinner. This is what they mean by being "In Christ." They teach that one comes into being "In Christ" by simply trusting in what Jesus did.

Thus under this Gospel message the porn watcher is no longer under condemnation for continuing in porn because he is deemed to be "In Christ" and the legal transaction has taken place.

Under this system salvation is viewed as a legal position only and the actual redemption from the bondage of sin has been omitted. This is why the Pastors can tell me that the porn watcher can still be viewing porn and saved at the same time. They disconnect being actually delivered from the sin from their definition of salvation. This is why they teach "Justification" as "Forensic" or "Positional" and "Sanctification" as "Actual."

When all the rhetoric is stripped from this message it is basically teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" as long as the sin is committed within the framework of being IN Jesus Christ whereby Jesus has paid the price and the righteousness of Jesus has been transferred to the sinner.


If you read the plain words of Jesus you will find that He did not teach anything about such an exchange of records. There are so many scriptures throughout the Bible which completely contradict this message.

Abiding, carefully think about what I have written above and just see if you can grasp at all what I am alluding to. I know it is difficult to see if one has sat under the modern gospel message for a long time. Those in the Church System have major strongholds in the mind that they need to come to terms with before they have any hope of actually grasping what the Bible plainly teaches.

When I approach people I liken it an individual having 100 strongholds in the mind which all contradict a single truth which I might be elaborating on. I can address the strongholds one by one but it is a long process to unravel each one separately. If 2 strongholds are toppled, it still appears to the individual that there are 98 things which contradict what I am telling them.

During fellowship today we were discussing the best way to approach people with this information and we were talking about how this delusion is like an onion. The delusion consists of layer upon layer of deception and is goes very deep.

This is why I encourage those who are truly sincere about truth to close themselves off from all preachers and to turn away from all Christian books. To just start reading the Bible beginning in the Gospels and let the simplicity of the message to wash over them.

We live in a very dangerous and deceptive time today. Jesus clearly warned of this deception several times. Jesus taught that MANY false teachers would come and that they would deceive MANY people. That is what He taught. Jesus also warned that there would be MANY who would stand rejected, being workers of iniquity, who professed Him as Lord. We take such warnings lightly at our peril.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on the strait gate and narrow way that few will find? Jesus used those very words in His teaching.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on how one must strive to enter in at the strait gate and that few will be able to enter in. Jesus taught that very thing.

Jesus talked about striving, digging deep, being a doer of the word, counting the cost, picking up the plough and not turning back. Jesus taught people to "go and sin no more," that He came to "bring a sword not peace," and that His message would divide households against each other. Jesus taught things like one must lose their life in order to find it and that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Him.

Yet if you bring those plain simple teachings of Jesus up in most churches today you are viciously attacked and accused of preaching a works based salvation, of denying grace, of having no love, of judging etc. It is truly amazing how the the words of Jesus are so offensive to people.

Anyway I hope you will reflect on the things I write and just ask yourself. What if I am correct in what I say? Examine it carefully and compare what I write to the Bible. Look up the Scriptures I quote and be a diligent Berean.

 

[Red33]

I speak to a lot of Pastors most of who hold to the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

When I ask them if an individual who is addicted to pornography has to stop viewing porn BEFORE God will forgive them they clearly tell me that he does not.

They tell me that the porn viewer turns to God first, gets saved and it is then that he is empowered to stop viewing porn.

I then ask them when the porn viewing actually stops and they tell me it is different with different people. They will tell me that some porn addicts are more addicted than others but the sign of being truly saved is that the porn addict is "convicted" about his sin and "wants to stop it."

The above pretty much describes the common view taught by most pastors today.

Due to Penal Substitution they view salvation as a "legal position" whereby the sinner has swapped accounts with Jesus. Basically the sin which brings condemnation has been attributed to Jesus Christ whereby Jesus took the punishment in the sinners place, and the perfect righteousness of Jesus is attributed to the sinner so that God sees the righteousness of Jesus when He looks at the sinner. This is what they mean by being "In Christ." They teach that one comes into being "In Christ" by simply trusting in what Jesus did.

Thus under this Gospel message the porn watcher is no longer under condemnation for continuing in porn because he is deemed to be "In Christ" and the legal transaction has taken place.

Under this system salvation is viewed as a legal position only and the actual redemption from the bondage of sin has been omitted. This is why the Pastors can tell me that the porn watcher can still be viewing porn and saved at the same time. They disconnect being actually delivered from the sin from their definition of salvation. This is why they teach "Justification" as "Forensic" or "Positional" and "Sanctification" as "Actual."

When all the rhetoric is stripped from this message it is basically teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" as long as the sin is committed within the framework of being IN Jesus Christ whereby Jesus has paid the price and the righteousness of Jesus has been transferred to the sinner.


If you read the plain words of Jesus you will find that He did not teach anything about such an exchange of records. There are so many scriptures throughout the Bible which completely contradict this message.

Abiding, carefully think about what I have written above and just see if you can grasp at all what I am alluding to. I know it is difficult to see if one has sat under the modern gospel message for a long time. Those in the Church System have major strongholds in the mind that they need to come to terms with before they have any hope of actually grasping what the Bible plainly teaches.

When I approach people I liken it an individual having 100 strongholds in the mind which all contradict a single truth which I might be elaborating on. I can address the strongholds one by one but it is a long process to unravel each one separately. If 2 strongholds are toppled, it still appears to the individual that there are 98 things which contradict what I am telling them.

During fellowship today we were discussing the best way to approach people with this information and we were talking about how this delusion is like an onion. The delusion consists of layer upon layer of deception and is goes very deep.

This is why I encourage those who are truly sincere about truth to close themselves off from all preachers and to turn away from all Christian books. To just start reading the Bible beginning in the Gospels and let the simplicity of the message to wash over them.

We live in a very dangerous and deceptive time today. Jesus clearly warned of this deception several times. Jesus taught that MANY false teachers would come and that they would deceive MANY people. That is what He taught. Jesus also warned that there would be MANY who would stand rejected, being workers of iniquity, who professed Him as Lord. We take such warnings lightly at our peril.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on the strait gate and narrow way that few will find? Jesus used those very words in His teaching.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on how one must strive to enter in at the strait gate and that few will be able to enter in. Jesus taught that very thing.

Jesus talked about striving, digging deep, being a doer of the word, counting the cost, picking up the plough and not turning back. Jesus taught people to "go and sin no more," that He came to "bring a sword not peace," and that His message would divide households against each other. Jesus taught things like one must lose their life in order to find it and that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Him.

Yet if you bring those plain simple teachings of Jesus up in most churches today you are viciously attacked and accused of preaching a works based salvation, of denying grace, of having no love, of judging etc. It is truly amazing how the the words of Jesus are so offensive to people.

Anyway I hope you will reflect on the things I write and just ask yourself. What if I am correct in what I say? Examine it carefully and compare what I write to the Bible. Look up the Scriptures I quote and be a diligent Berean.

Instead of using the 'porn' or 'child molester' bait, let's use being jealous of having a problem with covetousness. You don't like to use these because they don't have the same impact and people look at them as part of our humanity, like you do. You use those illustrations because you have a wicked heart in communicating the doctrine you ascribe to. You are just a wicked man with evil intentions. I don't care if you like it or not, because it's true and you don't like it when it is pointed out by others. Why don't you just go away and never come back until God brings you to a place of repentance because of your wicked heart. I repented of my wicked heart and now it's your turn and I have your number, not literally just figuratively. Some people get upset when I say things like this and accuse me of judging. They need to grow up and be more discerning in what's of God and what is not. I am an undeserving sinner saved by the grace of God and I abhor evil even when it shows up in hearts like yours.

 

[Abiding]

I speak to a lot of Pastors most of who hold to the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

When I ask them if an individual who is addicted to pornography has to stop viewing porn BEFORE God will forgive them they clearly tell me that he does not.

They tell me that the porn viewer turns to God first, gets saved and it is then that he is empowered to stop viewing porn.

I then ask them when the porn viewing actually stops and they tell me it is different with different people. They will tell me that some porn addicts are more addicted than others but the sign of being truly saved is that the porn addict is "convicted" about his sin and "wants to stop it."

The above pretty much describes the common view taught by most pastors today.

Due to Penal Substitution they view salvation as a "legal position" whereby the sinner has swapped accounts with Jesus. Basically the sin which brings condemnation has been attributed to Jesus Christ whereby Jesus took the punishment in the sinners place, and the perfect righteousness of Jesus is attributed to the sinner so that God sees the righteousness of Jesus when He looks at the sinner. This is what they mean by being "In Christ." They teach that one comes into being "In Christ" by simply trusting in what Jesus did.

Thus under this Gospel message the porn watcher is no longer under condemnation for continuing in porn because he is deemed to be "In Christ" and the legal transaction has taken place.

Under this system salvation is viewed as a legal position only and the actual redemption from the bondage of sin has been omitted. This is why the Pastors can tell me that the porn watcher can still be viewing porn and saved at the same time. They disconnect being actually delivered from the sin from their definition of salvation. This is why they teach "Justification" as "Forensic" or "Positional" and "Sanctification" as "Actual."

When all the rhetoric is stripped from this message it is basically teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" as long as the sin is committed within the framework of being IN Jesus Christ whereby Jesus has paid the price and the righteousness of Jesus has been transferred to the sinner.


If you read the plain words of Jesus you will find that He did not teach anything about such an exchange of records. There are so many scriptures throughout the Bible which completely contradict this message.

Abiding, carefully think about what I have written above and just see if you can grasp at all what I am alluding to. I know it is difficult to see if one has sat under the modern gospel message for a long time. Those in the Church System have major strongholds in the mind that they need to come to terms with before they have any hope of actually grasping what the Bible plainly teaches.

When I approach people I liken it an individual having 100 strongholds in the mind which all contradict a single truth which I might be elaborating on. I can address the strongholds one by one but it is a long process to unravel each one separately. If 2 strongholds are toppled, it still appears to the individual that there are 98 things which contradict what I am telling them.

During fellowship today we were discussing the best way to approach people with this information and we were talking about how this delusion is like an onion. The delusion consists of layer upon layer of deception and is goes very deep.

This is why I encourage those who are truly sincere about truth to close themselves off from all preachers and to turn away from all Christian books. To just start reading the Bible beginning in the Gospels and let the simplicity of the message to wash over them.

We live in a very dangerous and deceptive time today. Jesus clearly warned of this deception several times. Jesus taught that MANY false teachers would come and that they would deceive MANY people. That is what He taught. Jesus also warned that there would be MANY who would stand rejected, being workers of iniquity, who professed Him as Lord. We take such warnings lightly at our peril.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on the strait gate and narrow way that few will find? Jesus used those very words in His teaching.

If you go to a Church do you hear sermons on how one must strive to enter in at the strait gate and that few will be able to enter in. Jesus taught that very thing.

Jesus talked about striving, digging deep, being a doer of the word, counting the cost, picking up the plough and not turning back. Jesus taught people to "go and sin no more," that He came to "bring a sword not peace," and that His message would divide households against each other. Jesus taught things like one must lose their life in order to find it and that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Him.

Yet if you bring those plain simple teachings of Jesus up in most churches today you are viciously attacked and accused of preaching a works based salvation, of denying grace, of having no love, of judging etc. It is truly amazing how the the words of Jesus are so offensive to people.

Anyway I hope you will reflect on the things I write and just ask yourself. What if I am correct in what I say? Examine it carefully and compare what I write to the Bible. Look up the Scriptures I quote and be a diligent Berean.

Seriously skinski i see your concern. And i agree with it. Of coarse what the bible says is correct.
To be sure those who are of a profession alone will not enter the kingdom, and while im thinking of a better
response remember the church used to teach what you teach...came from finney i believe.

What did that produce? whitewashed hypocrites if i remember right. Im sure
where the whole council of God is taught we can rest assured we have done our job
and not have to leave out part of the truth just because the tares arnt getting saved.

How about you...did you live in sin after your conversion? Did you slip away?
were you in porn? just curous cuz im not aware of what your seeing about the
biblical truths being a problem. I drifted but it had nothing to do with doctrine
it had to do with my evil heart wanting to disobey. Then when i was brought home
i had to renew my mind and be obedient and washed by the word.

Just wondering did you have any addictions? Did they go away with just a prayer if so?

 

[Red33]

Seriously skinski i see your concern. And i agree with it. Of coarse what the bible says is correct.
To be sure those who are of a profession alone will not enter the kingdom, and while im thinking of a better
response remember the church used to teach what you teach...came from finney i believe.

What did that produce? whitewashed hypocrites if i remember right. Im sure
where the whole council of God is taught we can rest assured we have done our job
and not have to leave out part of the truth just because the tares arnt getting saved.

How about you...did you live in sin after your conversion? Did you slip away?
were you in porn? just curous cuz im not aware of what your seeing about the
biblical truths being a problem. I drifted but it had nothing to do with doctrine
it had to do with my evil heart wanting to disobey. Then when i was brought home
i had to renew my mind and be obedient and washed by the word.

Just wondering did you have any addictions? Did they go away with just a prayer if so?

Ask this guy what kind of gospel he brings to others who are lost and are dead in their trespasses and sins. Does he communicate Christ and Him crucified? Does he tell others of the love of God that sent His Son to shed His blood and suffer death so that sinners could live? Does he preach a salvation that is by grace and through faith or is it loaded with confession and repentance so much so that their guilt is never overcome by the testimony of the blood of Christ. This man does not have the same gospel and you will find this out. He is no mystery to me and I have been around many of his ilk and don't like what they preach and don't mind saying so. There is no fellowship with this man because he is someone who is wise in his own conceit. That's my assessment and I am not backing off because his heart is deceitful. let him die to himself through the cross and learn the grace of God through the Holy Spirit and not through some critical spirit.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Abiding said:

Just wondering did you have any addictions? Did they go away with just a prayer if so?[/quote]

I know you weren't addressing me Abiding, and can give you a bit of light on the subject, OK, I thought I got saved about 15 years ago, said the Billy Graham sinners prayer many times, got saved as a vile porn addict, taking this addiction of about 30 years into the kingdom with me, the pastors and elders patted me on the head, told me I was saved, and Jesus took my wrath on the cross.

He forgave all my sins, past, present and future, no questions asked, because my penalty for being a porn addict and alcoholic, was paid for on the cross.

OK, here is your error, NO they didn't just go away with a prayer! This is what the apostate church teaches, confess, admit, trust its all been done, sin isn't good, but not the issue!

This is the lie from the pit, zillions of churches teach this saved in sin, penal sub message,.

Now the way to purity comes with a price, it isn't a done deal by just reciting a simple prayer, admitting you are a sinner, then trusting Jesus took your penalty, this is the lie, you must come broken before the mercy seat of God in repentance, no prayer will save you, only a broken and contrite heart, as with the prodigal.

The flesh must be crucified with Christ in repentance, and the repentance must be real and from the heart, proven by your deeds, doesnt save you, but cleanses you and purges you to receive the mercy of God.

The church told me I was on my way to heaven IN MY PORN, repentance wasn't necessary, Jesus did that for me on the cross!

I thank the few who had the love and courage to preach the truth to me, which was to repent or perish!

The surgeon’s knife!​

​

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell​

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

G1581
ἐκκόπτω
ekkoptō
ek-kop'-to
From G1537 and G2875; to exscind; figuratively to frustrate: - cut down (off, out), hew down, hinder.

Coming from a medical background I can appreciate what Jesus meant when He said to cut it out, pluck it out, and cast it away!
When someone is diagnosed with a type of deadly cancer, tumor, growth, cyst, or any other physical disease that must be removed, it’s easy to seek help from the best surgeon who can do his best work at cutting out this disease implanted in your body.
I believe this can be well used to describe the sick condition of the church today, where many are convinced they are healthy on the inside, meaning no cancers, growths, cysts, or anything that needs to be excised by the precise hand of a qualified surgeon. But due to their wrong choices, false teachings and unwilling to repent, they fail to see that their sin that has so ensnared them is much worse than any physical ailment will ever be!
But the master made in very clear, that the sin must be cut off, right at the root, and put to death through repentance as He commanded, He made it clear what would happen IF the sins were not excised from the heart, cut out at the roots so it would not grow back.
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, who came to set the captives free, once and for all, asking all to repent, cut and cast the sin away with the strength of the great surgeon, who gives us all we need to bow to His throne casting away our sins that kept us in bondage!
Jesus will not do it for you, and He didn’t take your place on the surgeons table to become sin for you, He specifically commanded you to cut if off, pluck it out, and put it to death through repentance and faith proven by deeds.
The sin stops and is cut out, excised, and put to death in repentance,
Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil;
We have our part to do in this process leading to purity, and God has His, as we come to Him purged, and cleared from sin and disobedience that once infested our mortal bodies, waiting to be cut out at the root, and put to death!
So when the false teachers tell you sin is a part of you, or is a substance inbred into you, and a disease handed down to you from Adam, and you just can never stop sinning, or even need to stop sinning to be saved or stay saved, remember the words of the master, who made it perfectly clear what WE in our own free will and ability MUST DO:
“Pluck it out, cut it off, and cast it from thee”!
This clearly defines what a qualified surgeon will do to remove cancer, and also clearly defines what we must do to inherit eternal life!
Tommy

 

[angelofmercy]

Abiding said:

Just wondering did you have any addictions? Did they go away with just a prayer if so?

I know you weren't addressing me Abiding, and can give you a bit of light on the subject, OK, I thought I got saved about 15 years ago, said the Billy Graham sinners prayer many times, got saved as a vile porn addict, taking this addiction of about 30 years into the kingdom with me, the pastors and elders patted me on the head, told me I was saved, and Jesus took my wrath on the cross.

He forgave all my sins, past, present and future, no questions asked, because my penalty for being a porn addict and alcoholic, was paid for on the cross.

OK, here is your error, NO they didn't just go away with a prayer! This is what the apostate church teaches, confess, admit, trust its all been done, sin isn't good, but not the issue!

This is the lie from the pit, zillions of churches teach this saved in sin, penal sub message,.

Now the way to purity comes with a price, it isn't a done deal by just reciting a simple prayer, admitting you are a sinner, then trusting Jesus took your penalty hI, this is the lie, you must come broken before the mercy seat of God in repentance, no prayer will save you, only a broken and contrite heart, as with the prodigal.

The flesh must be crucified with Christ in repentance, and the repentance must be real and from the heart, proven by your deeds, doesnt save you, but cleanses you and purges you to receive the mercy of God.

The church told me I was on my way to heaven IN MY PORN, repentance wasn't necessary, Jesus did that for me on the cross!

I thank the few who had the love and courage to preach the truth to me, which was to repent or perish!

The surgeon’s knife!
​

wsw

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

G1581
ἐκκόπτω
ekkoptō
ek-kop'-to
From G1537 and G2875; to exscind; figuratively to frustrate: - cut down (off, out), hew down, hinder.

Coming from a medical background I can appreciate what Jesus meant when He said to cut it out, pluck it out, and cast it away!
When someone is diagnosed with a type of deadly cancer, tumor, growth, cyst, or any other physical disease that must be removed, it’s easy to seek help from the best surgeon who can do his best work at cutting out this disease implanted in your body.
I believe this can be well used to describe the sick condition of the church today, where many are convinced they are healthy on the inside, meaning no cancers, growths, cysts, or anything that needs to be excised by the precise hand of a qualified surgeon. But due to their wrong choices, false teachings and unwilling to repent, they fail to see that their sin that has so ensnared them is much worse than any physical ailment will ever be!
But the master made in very clear, that the sin must be cut off, right at the root, and put to death through repentance as He commanded, He made it clear what would happen IF the sins were not excised from the heart, cut out at the roots so it would not grow back.
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, who came to set the captives free, once and for all, asking all to repent, cut and cast the sin away with the strength of the great surgeon, who gives us all we need to bow to His throne casting away our sins that kept us in bondage!
Jesus will not do it for you, and He didn’t take your place on the surgeons table to become sin for you, He specifically commanded you to cut if off, pluck it out, and put it to death through repentance and faith proven by deeds.
The sin stops and is cut out, excised, and put to death in repentance,
Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil;
We have our part to do in this process leading to purity, and God has His, as we come to Him purged, and cleared from sin and disobedience that once infested our mortal bodies, waiting to be cut out at the root, and put to death!
So when the false teachers tell you sin is a part of you, or is a substance inbred into you, and a disease handed down to you from Adam, and you just can never stop sinning, or even need to stop sinning to be saved or stay saved, remember the words of the master, who made it perfectly clear what WE in our own free will and ability MUST DO:
“Pluck it out, cut it off, and cast it from thee”!
This clearly defines what a qualified surgeon will do to remove cancer, and also clearly defines what we must do to inherit eternal life!
Tommy







[/QUOTE]


Is not the whole body cut off for sins?

Colossians 2:9-11

9*For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10*And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11*In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


And porn will not keep one from heaven. Blessed is the man who condemns not himself in what he allows.

 

[Abiding]

Say what?....

 

[marianna]

Ask this guy what kind of gospel he brings to others who are lost and are dead in their trespasses and sins. Does he communicate Christ and Him crucified? Does he tell others of the love of God that sent His Son to shed His blood and suffer death so that sinners could live? Does he preach a salvation that is by grace and through faith or is it loaded with confession and repentance so much so that their guilt is never overcome by the testimony of the blood of Christ. This man does not have the same gospel and you will find this out. He is no mystery to me and I have been around many of his ilk and don't like what they preach and don't mind saying so. There is no fellowship with this man because he is someone who is wise in his own conceit. That's my assessment and I am not backing off because his heart is deceitful. let him die to himself through the cross and learn the grace of God through the Holy Spirit and not through some critical spirit.

I and you, together Red33, Amen

This man is an imposter, and does not know Christ OUR LORD.
I stand with the redeemed CHURCH, the blood bought huddled mass of sinners this man hates.

In all the Love and Grace of Our LORD and Savior, Who Gave His Life for us,
marianna.

 

[marianna]

Seriously skinski i see your concern. And i agree with it. Of coarse what the bible says is correct.
To be sure those who are of a profession alone will not enter the kingdom, and while im thinking of a better
response remember the church used to teach what you teach...came from finney i believe.

What did that produce? whitewashed hypocrites if i remember right. Im sure
where the whole council of God is taught we can rest assured we have done our job
and not have to leave out part of the truth just because the tares arnt getting saved.

How about you...did you live in sin after your conversion? Did you slip away?
were you in porn? just curous cuz im not aware of what your seeing about the
biblical truths being a problem. I drifted but it had nothing to do with doctrine
it had to do with my evil heart wanting to disobey. Then when i was brought home
i had to renew my mind and be obedient and washed by the word.

Just wondering did you have any addictions? Did they go away with just a prayer if so?

How is it you agree with a man who denies Christ was THE Penal Substitutionary Atonement for sinful mankind?

 

[starfield]

Is not the whole body cut off for sins?

Colossians 2:9-11

9*For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10*And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11*In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


And porn will not keep one from heaven. Blessed is the man who condemns not himself in what he allows.

Even though the bible does not speak about porn, it is still a sin because it fills the heart and mind with lust. A married man or woman engaging in pornography is an adulterer and adulterers have no place in Heaven. An unmarried man or woman engaging in porn is a whoremongers and according to Rev 22:15, they have no place in Heaven. You cannot be double-minded, enslaved to sin and go to Heaven at the same time. You cannot serve God and your flesh at the same time.
Col 3:5-6
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.